more people have been killed because of british labor and conservative governments than the weekend's geophysical traumas of continental plates well one of journalism's fear of his critics of u.s. policy on iraq has been award winning rolling stone magazine writer matt taibbi but in his new must appease icon to breathe the killing that started the movement he jots a war that began with the killing of father of six eric garner in new york city had led to a worldwide movement that campaigns from toronto canada to ferguson usa to london england to melbourne australia matt taibbi joins me now from new jersey that thanks so much for coming back on the show so why is aragon as story arguably so emblematic of what's wrong in the usa right now i think it's a perfect example of everything that's wrong with modern american policing because it was a. particularly pointed example of what goes wrong when you use the statistics based approach that most american police departments use and they target my are

criminals more the. major criminals. terrorists are a perfect example of that also this case was incredibly important because it was really the first in the twitter rates to really capture the imagination of the entire country because it was all captured on video. and it helped ignite a movement around the country that was fuelled by subsequent cases that were also couched captured on video later that year like michael brown it's me you're right. about you know others in the past twenty four hours there's been a silent and yet another silent march here in london for the deaths in the grand fell tower fire which has raised the idea of gentrification in the british media at least for a little while your story begins with a context of gentrification garbage dumps and michael bloomberg cigarette tax. why. well so eric garner was his

job was he did it he sold untaxed cigarettes illegally on the street and that was a job that he couldn't have had had not mayor bloomberg raised taxes on cigarettes to help pay for the clean up of new york city after nine eleven and basically what they did is instead of raising taxes on the rich for people who could pay the taxes what they did is they created the most onerous consumption tax that america and made it so that essentially a tip him about thirteen or fourteen dollars a pack to buy a. pack smokes in new york city so aircar was doing was sending you will doubtlessly virginia buying cigarettes for about five dollars of bringing them back up to new york and basically splitting the difference and selling among the street market it was an arbitrage just like any other trends you're we do and that's why this industry said this was just a little you know less biscuit and this one actually made money on like say the

arbitrage used by lehman's about this great exactly exactly. does he tell the story of the new york police department whistleblower pet drew serrano who seemed to be recording what sounded like an ad for the apartheid law enforcement officers tell me about the record it. so the new york city police department pioneered a program that was called stop and frisk or stop question and frisk which was really the cornerstone of what we call broken windows policing here in america and the idea behind that policy is if you crack down on the little stuff like people jumping turnstiles or running the wrong way down a sidewalk or jumping out of an open container it's no mention really real crime will go down and the reason for that is that people will think twice about going outside their homes with a gun if they think they can be arrested for something stupid like jumping a turnstile but in order to affect the policy what cities like new york at the do

is stop hundreds of thousands of people a year usually without cause and it was entirely in black and hispanic neighborhoods and many many cops particularly minority glee's officers object it's not going to do this. and one of them was this guy peter serrano who is a native of north rocks. and what he found out when he started to record his bosses surreptitiously is they were telling him things openly like i have no problem telling you i want you to stop milk blacks age fourteen to twenty one i want you to stop the right people and those recordings became is your man all in a lawsuit to help the overturn some of these policies and and you talk about as of green cross cluster racial assumptions and they don't all trumps wall. we're yes exactly i mean the the root of these. double trumps appeal and the root of the

appeal of his wall theory was based on the idea that a lot of people in sort of flyover country america have specials are white middle americans what used to call the silent majority in this country is their idea that people who other cultures and other races are inherently more criminal than they are therefore it makes as the bill the laws to keep all those terrible people out similarly to the policies that were employed in cities like new york city. which were based upon stopping hundreds of thousands of black and hispanic people for essentially no reason they were based on the idea that those who are more likely to be criminals then other people or as you couldn't have the one policy without wait voters believing. in the underlying logic of those policies again which is that stopping black and hispanic males makes sense because that's where you're going to likely find your criminals if you british viewers might see echoes of that we had

the head of the police union here saying they sacked twenty thousand police officers but they have this goal driven really broken windows strategy but you had another. dimension to this because of u.s. supreme court and earl warren on the supreme court acting on police abuse. related yeah exactly the foundation for of those stop and frisk a broken windows policy in america goes all the way back to the late sixty's. in a case called ohio terry where the supreme court is the rule that police could stop and then also search by patting people down anybody they want to have been adequate to put articulable suspicion that a crime was about to be committed know what that did is that it put the whole notion of probable. because in the minds of the police the police officers it was a completely subjective thing and the problem with these policies with these

statistics based policies with the kind of things that resulted from that case is that it creates an enormous number of new contacts between police and the population and very many of them are hostile and that's why a large percentage of the result is deaths or serious injuries because otherwise police and the population may not be interacting at all unless they see a crime being committed but if there are messed up people for little to no reason then you're going to have marty's asserts all sorts of bizarre strategies that are being talked about here in britain especially of a knife crime that tell me about the bizarre incentivising that went on to marry a cuomo the. incentivized signature izing race. it's a whole story we know we have obviously have all. huge problem in this country with mass incarceration and one of the reasons for that ironically is that there's

a whole set of bizarre political incentives to build prisons in the states again law enforcement in america is not and is not a federal matter it's a state and local matter and so one of them is what happens in states like california new york is that governors will tend to reward. local officials that assemblyman or city councilmen by placing prisons in their districts because that's a way to provide jobs that provide peace construction contracts and all you need to keep that business flowing is the keep a lot of people filling those prison and. so there's as there's a perverse set of incentives politically and financially to build a lot of prisons and then keep those prisons full. and that was pioneered by people like mario cuomo and here in new york but it's now true basically everywhere in america just remind us how drug laws but the united states and britain deliberately

punish the poorest and let off perhaps the wall street or city of london bank because drugs of choice oh yeah we had ridiculous discrepancies in our laws drug laws here for the longest time the most infamous rule we call the one hundred one laws where if you sold crack the sentence you you got was about one hundred times as long to quickly as a sentence a person would get for selling powdered cocaine which was a more popular drug among upscale white people so he sold the street drug you've got a long and difficult sentence if you sold the says social club drug you got another side tyrolese so there's always been this discrepancy in the american criminal justice system but especially when it comes to drugs which are just a tool really to go after almost everybody because almost everybody at some point in their lives uses illegal drugs and if you want to selectively enforce those

laws that's it's an incredible tool to have at your disposal you've lived in russia and i know we want to talk about this book but i want to be russia comes into this book in the sense that the russia story here it's to raise a may the british prime minister has been echoing your robot or this special counsel. about russia to publicize the away from more information revealed about the killer of eric gunter yes so the russia story really dominated the headlines here for the last year or so when when news finally leaked out that the police officer in the case they don't handle a zero had an extensive record of abuse complaints that was leaked to a newspaper here to us a year and new york there was this you know news about it all here in america because. as i noted the book came out basically on the same day that there was an explosive series of hearings involving james call me and congress russia story

there's a story in america trumping the russians if you want to get anything to the news these days it has to involve one of those two factors for the most part and so ironically you know when. when the guard is happened to michael brown ferguson happened a lot of people thought this was going to be the beginning of a sweeping period of change in this country but the opposite this turned out to be true and that diaby thank you. thank you so much after the break who is the real enemy of online free speech governments or private u.s. tech giants we speak to the co-founder of o'brien developing a web browser about why we need more ethical technology and trumping the headlines bill wickeder because who let allowed to lift the lid on his own dot all the civil coming up about to going underground.

apply for many clubs over the years so i know the game and so i got. the ball isn't only about what happens on the pitch or the funnel school it's about the passion from the fans it's the age of the super money kill the narrowness and spending to do the twenty million and one player. it's an experience like nothing else not to because i want to share what i think of what i know about the beautiful guy like great so one more chance with. thinks it's going to. every single minute there's a new drug for some families like shaky likes in the they make up and they get a grant from some corrupt congressmen in america billions of dollars and the side effect results may. mean do suicide graham do suspect that what you know but they

work a flag is inducing suicide because you look at that you say oh it's a form of the doctor say. about your sudden passing i've only just learnt you worry yourself in taking your last bang turn. your attitude up to you as we all knew it would i tell you i'm sorry. so i write these last words in hopes to put to rest these things that i never got off my chest. i remember when we first met my life turned on each. but then my feeling started to change you talked about more like it was icky still some more fun to view those that didn't like to question our arc and i secretly promised to never be like it's one does not leave a funeral the same as one enters the mind gets consumed with this one quite different speech because there are no other takers. claimed that

mainstream media has met its maker. well go back with me to go do something week's papers now is libido big programs of all the liberal democrats in the week of the death of the legendary co-author of manufacturing descended herman who dissected the propaganda mortal of nato nation media we shall be mentioning yemen we shall be mentioning the british back bombing of a given me much in the fifteen thousand scientists twenty three saying the earth is about to end we're going to mention this yes we are going to mention this quite relevant when it comes to propaganda this is a lead. apparently by the kensington chelsea and for them conservatives not a fake says it is the richest area on earth one of the riches areas or one of the richest there is enough and it's a survey so far so good but what about the first question please circle the number which represents how important to you and your family each of the following local

issues are not for not important at all ten very important was the first question the tragedy of grand full tower and help for the families affected and the wider community this is been highlighted and sent in by a local resident be one of the worst atrocities in social housing in this country eighty dead we don't know the full number that's the estimate so people would seriously say eighty people died recently in nearby i don't care eikenberry implement why they've put it in but it might be a little bit tactless from the second question is affordable housing and as far as i know about a third of the money which has been raised from the public has actually been distributed to these people so that out of ten for wanting to discuss it probably a bit of a north out of ten for our you've done it in fairness if you're very rich do you really care but for let's just go into this next story by our esteemed foreign secretary who retained his job at the time for brokers to be unsinkable boris johnson it seems reuters report no evidence of russian interference in british

votes that's what u.k. foreign secretary said this is like kremlin t.v. what do you mean everyone says russia in that case boris is working for minutes well because when he was asked whether the russians had played any part in british elections his quote and i will read it to you after and no i haven't seen any evidence not a sausage as far as i know they have played no role hold water sources what about the cia f.b.i. pompei or russia change bricks they have bagels not sausages as completely different part resulted in a story which says completely opposite her leaders said something completely the opposite is the wonderful nature of the goal of government we've got at the moment the guardian reports. the reason they accuse is russia of interfering in the elections and fake news a sausage in other words more than sausage the whole whole english breakfast as far as i can tell some kind of directors no good dogs on she says the music her words again she said she spoke out against the scale and nature of russia's actions and

she says and she said this is a lot as banquet very important speech for the prime minister he said it was threatening the international order on which we all depend it looks to me that the reason i haven't been talking afshin. but here she also says we know what you're doing i presume that's directly about it we have putin from the lord mayor's banquet in the city of london we know what you're doing and certainly can say that the baras country well if they knew what the russians are doing why did they do something about it is the other thing about it here's the other point what does boris not know that the reason i'm a knows boris is meant to be the professional foreign secretary i think they need to have a little bit of a cup of tea and a bit of a chant about who's right but maybe boris is to find the pocket of the kremlin to listen to his own prime minister is meeting the un secretary general today and the husband of the accused british subject imprisoned in iran let's go to more dubious leaks and information in your next story from some magazine called the atlantic

which i don't think anyone takes that seriously that there's a relevant point there actually action but let's start with headlines atlanta quotes the secret correspondence between donald trump jr and wiki leaks now this is a slightly impenetrable story it begins to suggest that wiki leaks was convincing donald trump jr that's the president's son to issue leaked e-mails which were damaging to his own father's campaign that's not what it was that i know it was on a date around the same time the julian assange who was on this show which then led to a quote in the cia dia a report saying that going underground was basically putting an interim. the waiters and whether they're accusing the atlantic or not there's a really interesting subtext to this option i did some digging and it turns out that the atlantic the outlet which reported this is owned by none other than lauren powell jobs that steve jobs his widow who is an avowed democrat so that's why it's

so obscure all you can conclude presumably is that they're saying that donald trump's own son was willing to turncoat on his father's campaign while wiki leaks was so influential that they were able to achieve that he presents family i think prove that they did torn between south korean for many factors and north korean for many factors may offer a better solution and a new life for such a conspiracy theorist but you might be right there but a big thank you. well this week a nato nation mainstream media has again raised the specter of state attempting to influence not only last year's us elections but the brics it vote here in the u.k. but while perceived state adversaries like russia and china get the blame in a west rattled by economic crisis what about now arguably bigger threat to enlightenment values than cold war bogeyman what about multi billion dollar tech

giants joining me now is your cofounder of opera and value technologies yawn welcome to going underground to google chrome used by most of humanity i think came out number one is the browser of choice why should we be scared of using google chrome i think i mean it's important to have a choice and i actually think that everyone is using one tool it's unfortunate anyway and so but we do have a choice you have a choice and you should be using my browser as an example of that product placement or product placement but i mean it's not really about product placement it's a question of i think it's good to have a choice and i think everything going through one system is a problem in some ways i'm less concerned on the browser side than on the back side right the level of information that's being collected almost as we move around as we as we do things on the incognito mode isn't that the google get any donations or anything like that to be frank myself even after these huge billion dollar unprecedented fines by the european union or google for other well out there. and

i'm not really saying that they're doing anything there but i'm just and i'm just in general thinking that assuming that your location is unknown and that you're able to do things totally i wouldn't trust it myself and we should say actually that but it does cover quite a lot of where behavior but i understand that your web browser veld isn't doing so well is it just that it's not as good as chrome or of you know all other. problems as regarding other companies producing web browsers i'm really happy. we with what we are actually achieving so we're reaching about a million users so far we just started in a way and if you look at the growth rate that i've seen before it didn't go like this it went kind of like this right so there's this percentage of it tell me about the problems you have about advertising the use of this where brezhnev the many people watching when not have even heard about so i mean it started with me going out there and talking about privacy. and i talked about the importance of privacy

and that we shouldn't be tracked to the level that we are and we shouldn't be talking to to the level that we were and a couple of days later for some reason google actually closed our. account advertising system which is google's revenue yes so i would which is i mean you have says it does not suspend anyone from woods for criticizing google well and openly they would say that and i mean do i have proof that there is a correlation no i just know that it happened a couple of days after i came in with a comment on. the collection of information and the targeting that is happening you were no longer able to advertise on the google platform. i mean your account was shut our account was shut down and there was no real explanation to it and actually i mean to the adventure they opened it took three months and they were saying things like you have to put information about an install below the download button and you have to put information about what you are accepting below the download

button but no one just google doesn't do that and how would you describe the power of google when it comes to commercial interests and if good if i'm a small business person i've come up with some idea and google doesn't like my idea and i don't want to sell my idea to google. how much power would they have among the google has is a major player in advertising basement i mean one thing is the browser and the operating system on the mobile site but they're also the bigger player and that means that if i want to place it almost anywhere i would. normally go through their system so when they close that door that a massive problem for a small company the twitter is just bad and say bad and this program from being able to be advertised on twitter as part of the twitter revenue model should be frightened to going underground members of going underground to be frightened and we've been banned from doing so yeah it's a significant problem obviously from the perspective of being able to call i mean particularly for companies like google and facebook and the like because they their

ads they reach so widely right i mean twitter is one thing it's their platform right but in the case of google it's everyone's platforms because google ads are on just about every page out there so when you're blocked it's a significant problem you you could obviously try to connect with every site directly but that's not what you think that is going to work i mean famously we saw the breakup of the bell a.t.m. t. telephone companies in the united states in the it was eighty's nine hundred eighty s. i mean do you think google will be have to have to be broken up given that i'm not really sure if that's what should be happening i have all those suggestions that i think is more important i really think that the collection of information that's happening has gone overboard it's not necessary to collect this information and i'm actually concerned it may be illegal i mean it used to be like you go to a site and you're doing something on that site and none of that information goes to the next site i'm sure google would say it's a revenue stream model is based on advertising the more information you can pick up

from the user you can use this to help the advertisers that fund google in the first and there's a point there being is yes it's a lot of value in collecting information on users but that's why times to be regulated as well to keep private so from that perspective if again i'm going to cite and if i was getting if it was so you're coming to my site and i have your information and typically that would be like you or maybe your name and address and phone number or something like that that's typically the level of information that business is what they could not go and share that with someone else but now. everything that we are doing is being shared so just because there's the same providers across those different sites and obviously because of their information about our whereabouts through our mobile phones and and potentially all the technology is a again i'm concerned about the new voice technology as i love the technology it's right i love technology and i love the idea of people fish in your ear and being able to understand what everyone says but i hate the idea of it being on potentially all the time and listening to everything that you say so i think you

have to look at how what information is being collected and how it's being used to how we're going to get these changes made in these concerns. upheld in any kind of . any kind of way i mean these are massive companies i think this is a case of regulation and i think basically we have some regulation that is maybe not being followed up on and maybe we need some more relieving regulation is going to work i'm pretty certain it would and i also think that these companies they don't want to be seen as the bad guys so i'm hoping that with with a little bit of push from the government so they would say ok we want to live in a society where we're not being tracked where we're not being targeted in the way that we ought to currently and that's something we want to fix and i think that that's a reasonable thing to do i think it's possible to do it technically clearly so it's just a question of doing the right thing. thank you that's it for the show we'll be back on saturday to examine today's u.k. prime minister's questions assuming the almost daily scandals or strays are made

right by them till then heated up by social media will see what's happening fifty three years of the day that us f.b.i. director j. edgar hoover publicly described civil rights icon martin luther king jr was joyous light ice. yes. that. kid. was.

not. a dentist you don't. think and secondly. dealing with the single month or so in that are equal when it's all just listening to what he calls a stance me going on in condolence don't we don't see don't seem to. move that to those putting the onus is on. the scene years ago i traveled across the united states exploring america's deadly love affair with a gun if a bad guy tried to get to one of my family members he would have better luck with that better and i think they are inheriting whatever my my baby's says my book was

published in the year two thousand more than half a million americans have been killed by falling into the u.s. side how does thought to me as i did this is a middle school we go through drills and we put ourselves in a real scenario so it was interesting to see who actually got hit. the pain. i just saw i did to return to the subject to track down each gun owner who i'd met and photographed those years ago. but we are not. whenever you buy a russian product. you're not just getting into the quality. of the little bit so soon as we.

look. at. this hour's headlines stories russian lawmakers voted in favor of giving moscow the power to classify a media foreign agents in a minute similar to those made against. the united states. in response to washington's actions the self-appointed guardians of global press freedom usually quiet on the treatment of artes us channel. reveals that volunteers attempting to help refugees crossing international borders are being treated as criminals by the we hear from one humanitarian aid worker who fell foul of the authorities. it's quite obvious that you don't believe me you'll be

the.