welcome back within the next forty eight hours the british government presents its first budget since this summer's snap election which cost the conservative party its majority who will teresa mayes chancellor address the impact of arguable ideological privatisation austerity on the front lines of british justice joining me now is ian lawrence the general secretary of nato the trade union and professional association representing over eight thousand members working in probation and family courts in welcome back to going underground to it seventy percent of the ration their work in england and wales was privatized which raises may and david cameron how's it going so for all the architects of this disaster was chris grayling of course who suggests we should grow our way out of problems you know lost in order by the venom secretary and of course prime minister just a select committee called chris grayling in and asking for the rationale behind this seriously bad social experiment it has failed on a number of fronts now the point is that these are now for profit companies correct

right they're privatised and the allegation is that some public services like public libraries are being used by these for profit companies or goes these public services are paid for by council tax payers. very concerned we had a case down in the west country where working links one of the providers or the provider down there has been using public library we know of one certainly weston super mare where clients probation clients are being interviewed we find it wholly unacceptable and the public ought to know what in the blue committed crimes are out on probation and when they're being checked up on to see whether they are abiding by the terms of their release they are being interviewed in a public library at the time that they are interview with the public around them yes indeed and we had reports of clients stepping around the children's section of the library to get to the appointments but nevertheless it's not it's not. an

environment is conducive to serious supervision of clients who may present a low medium risk but we don't know now people don't know how their circumstances may change from one meeting to the next the longer they respect when face to face supervision people can present with increased problems ok we saw the statistics for second and they're quite serious or to succeed have been emerging over this period in terms of reoffending rates and all the rest is it money for old rope for these companies that will see your c.d.'s and they've just been given an extra thirty seven million pounds and. that was actually there was a response to the shadow justice secretary richard berke yes for old rope well i figure maybe more up to date on what i had but it's somewhere between twenty four thirty seven million this year to keep their heads above water questions need to be raised. just a select committee might well ask where is this two hundred seventy seven million pounds come from is now being guaranteed by ministers to these failing providers they shouldn't evented interface with are absolutely nailing down how much it will

cost a little preparation services you need in this new environment you think chris grayling knew about it we have this leaked memo for twenty thirty and we were told about it before mr justice officials warning there's an eighty percent risk of an unacceptable drop an operational performance if this privatization absolutely knew about it and we warned politicians including chris quietly in that we had seen this risk report ok but i mean do we have a twenty five percent rise in serious crimes such as murder and manslaughter committed by offenders under supervision in the community is that the fault of your members or is it the fault of this policy of privatisation difficult to say. for every serious case kurz is an independent report conducted and we have seen little or no blame attributed to practitioner members in the vast majority of these cases because what has been found is of stakes a major combination of fact it's information not reaching people who are right time multi-agency range it's not a failing of them because you're under resourced what do you think of this

commitment from the favorite to be the next prime minister jeremy corbett and his party saying they basically want to renationalise the whole probation service again well we absolutely welcome that and we were believe it i believe it i believe it i believe the general about that indeed before the last one election where similar commitments from city can and others in terms of what they want to do clearly there would be a take on the maryland state potentially would be a cost implication but when you think about him out of taxpayers' money that's been wasted i would argue to bring in probation back into public ownership and make it more accountable be very popular with the taxpaying public i mean there was some eyebrows raised saying that that young more young children should be sent to jail for longer that was at the age of the howard league dick that really runs the largest police force in the country would that ease the load on probation people getting longer said the younger ages there are too many people in prison period and all if you think of what they're the met well i think that's why is it in the

context of how you describe the comments are the myself but just trying people into prison is proven not to work and clearly there are people who present a real and present danger to the public and none of our members would would argue that if that is the case and off the streets now of harms way there are so many people who are incarcerated now who are in there for offenses which frankly do not deserve a prison sentence and there are far to many women prisoners as well in the system as a scandalous witness for the public accounts committee they were certainly raise because the next generation electronic tagging scheme which is we in long we. there's a great new improvement. could be used by your offices because the other ninety millions over it five years they g four s. implementing the contract what do you think of the whole situation around the next generation of electronic tagging which the forests are among most providers who still secure government contracts despite the very dark cloud hanging over them for the past performance in this area such as tech in that people don't literally but

use the names of those who die do you think they still get their contracts retained government are running out of choice and ministers want to keep these contracts and they will be asking the justice select committee why contracts of return to providers who have failed and lost the question respectively c.r.c. as well where we do it was a. norm but. that only five million went down the drain the minister just as well and secretary as it made any difference to your members the new tagging we come from the standpoint that was taken has its place cannot it cannot replace proper high quality supervision in a community and amount of money you've mentioned staggering by an awful lot probation officers could increase their pay a little bit as well which is another problem i have a letter from the minister. saying how well he appreciates the work relation of his it's my message to him and others he's good items of money i don't want erode because you know they're presiding over system is a shambles and they need some help in lawrence thank you.

well to football now and while the world may be wondering about italy not qualifying for the world cup next year a new play in london take a very different angle when it comes to football and with its award winning star thievin jorgenson at the trafalgar studios in london thanks fever inviting us on the set indeed what is red line all about other red lion as you can see is set in the dressing room of a semi professional football club based in the northern league up in the north east of england the oldest football league in the country and it deals with three generations there's the old kit man johnny eights played by john bowler who used to play for the club his father used to play for the club used to manage the club now he looks after the kit he's he's readline through and through there's the very

ambitious manager played by my good self called jimmy kid who's been at the club for two years but has ambitions that outreach this seventy professional status he finds himself in he wants to be glad handing with jos a marine you know at any opportunity and sitting next to gary lineker being a pundit on much of the day every week and into their mitts comes a young footballer played by dean bone a young protege and there's a sort of city and battle for his soul the kit mum wants him to stay at the club and nurture him properly and slowly and i'd quite happily want to sell him on to get a cut of the transfer fee for myself. and so it's a it's a sort of allegory for any business really sort of pre and post that show about the people that used to care about how everything was established and how the torch was passed on and all the people that just see it as a business and a money making opportunity for the older girl represents. and you represent.

yeah and i mean it was a bit strange when the kid the talent as it will feel will tell and says you know in professional football they're way better than the corrupt petty corruption of this northern club what do you mean by that well i think it's that money has become the root of all evil in especially in the sport of football and that you know deals can be done which on always in the clubs best interests the very personal now and i think that checkbook football has taken away the locale you know i certainly remember the support middlesborough my life and the team consisted of plot crags fall get picked in mills armstrong you know name of and they all lived in the area and you know then to the days of when we were getting janine you know when ravenel a you could tell they were from stockton and woods oh middlesbrough so it's kind of

you know all this you see players case in the badge but you know that really thankful for the enormous wage that they get every week rather than the club they're out here and now in the playwright patrick wilbur wrote it when he moved away from london because of seven seven and go involved in football management itself he did he happened to be passing lewis football club in the southeast with his son and it was a brilliant game very entertaining game but he found out that the club was in dire straits with the tax man so he ran round five much richer friends than he and they formed a consortium and run the club for six years and then patrick suddenly found his writing mojo again and wrote this play and you could see all the conflict yeah every president evil malaysia has marines yeah especially local community but you know but ambition is you know limitless. but you often tied down by financial

constraints so i mean just keep on the football. yeah angle just for a second so no local club live or do well if you take the views of the greek actors in this or the plot of this play well they're not necessarily a good player they have to sell it carries only because because the club needs the money yeah but you can't i mean my character has created a winning team he does know how to win easy good man manager and patrick experience promotion and relegation in the five years that he was at louis so you get all the highs and lows here and could this is very different to the way the modern critique of football is usually based on the rupert murdoch element of power of murdoch and tax dodging in paradise papers that extortion whether you do mention something about a stadium going to be built by yes whether it's oh yeah he talks about the owner of this club who's only bought the club so that he can sell the club and in five years time we'll sell the ground to the highest bidder and they'll build houses on it and

a superstore and then they'll build a new book smaller ground cheaper looking ground somewhere call it a community stadium but just so that the businessman can launder is cash through the club so it's quite a cynical outlook but i think these things do happen i'm afraid you know it seems very real to you williams and does that do you think this is a race was in reflecting the eighty's the worth of these thoughts of that red business ideas given that we continue i think so i think you know the further we've gone on you can you know with hindsight being twenty twenty vision you can go yeah maybe we got it wrong and then you read it on it all yeah it being about the self so it may end up in the same was happening in an america with reagan and suddenly i think people are feeling a little bit ashamed of them and we've forgotten how to you know love the past and know what went before in order to keep moving forward but

you know. need to respect the past a little bit more than we have done nothing because mob or of course got his big break on alan partridge yes. he was in the other night see any was on our show and he was campaigning about near liberal education reforms running you think there is a real feeling that. maybe we got things wrong yeah. the powers that be do or yeah well yes certainly and i you know i was one of the best roles i ever got was in a film called brust off about you know how they the mining community was completely destroyed by mrs thatcher and entire communities were devastated and i was very aware of a huge north south divide when i first came to london to drama school and there were still minors on the finchley road with the cold not the old booklets and we invited the men to speak to the students' union to explain what was going on and how how far away from westminster they felt and this play begins with

a gag about the ministry yes i mean that's it's all it's all it's all thrown into the melting pot here and especially in a studio space like this it's such a shared experience for the actors on the audience i mean you know you're right there in touching distance tim johnson thank you thank you. and stephen john gibson is in patrick bob is the red line at london's trafalgar studios until the second of december but that's it for this year will be back on wednesday when we ask former u.k. security minister and chief of defense intelligence admiral lord west well the drays amaze you defense secretary gavin williamson will be next to face the firing line till then he will judge why social media with your one hundred twenty seven years to the day buke a small group thought you're effectively ended up premiership but they have arguably britain's greatest novelist george eliot.

when i was told seemed wrong. but old clothes just don't hold. me to the world that you get to shake out these days you can stick out to it and engagement equals betrayal. when so many find themselves worlds apart we choose to look for common ground the.

the german president says his country is facing a situation not seen in seventy years after coalition talks between merkel's party and the free democrats break down over iraq can find little differences. but chief advisor to the turkish president calls on parliament to reconsider the country's nato membership tensions between ankara as the alliance escalated dramatically off the president's order one was depicted as an enemy during a recent nato drove. suicide surges in the french police force with more than forty officers taking their lives this year alone r.t. speaks to an officer who made two attempts on her life. but was really proud if not

we were not given the true.