nor to what martin more big the chair of today's grunfeld meeting appears to believe here he is the judge appointed by a battle of minority u.k. government needed to resume on bootleg footage from the rather near daily mail addressing grunfeld survivors. because you have some. right. yes judge moore beck hasn't been too popular with most of the bereaved of grunfeld nor with even blair right or members of the party now odds on favorite to win the next general election he is a white upper middle class man who i suspect has never ever visited a tabloid housing estates and certainly hasn't slept so nights on the twentieth floor so why was he chosen he has a record of being overruled by the current president of the u.k. supreme court he had judged it fine to move a six single mother unable to pay rent after cuts to her social security fifty

miles away from her home critics call it social cleansing as u.k. supremes called president lady hale said of the time there is little to suggest that serious consideration was given to the authorities obligations before did decision was taken so when watching the reporting of today's grand fell hearing with so few still found new homes maybe these words from a member of the granville action group a pertinent especially given the increasingly precarious state of teresa mayes minority u.k. government and as local residents have said we feel like you know maybe if we join the do you play we've been listening to more. to be quite honest because it seems that you know to reason maze attention is only focused on things that will keep tories in may in downing street something denied by number ten well while arguably less attention is paid in major nations to austerity catastrophes there's nothing the media like more than to cover threats if it's not flooding we have putin who has just announced his intention to run in next year's. in elections it's the

destruction of the usa by missiles from kim jong un of korea that's not the north korean media see it which is cool today's on going two hundred thirty warplane eight base u.s. military action on the border a push of the korean peninsula to the brink of nuclear war and that's while the little trump may have catalyze the third intifada across the arab world for more i'm joined by former u.s. presidential contender bill richardson bill clinton's energy secretary and a former u.s. ambassador to the united nations ambassador thanks so much for being on the show is in the context of previous u.k. u.s. was that killed would thirty percent of korea's in to be a nation how successful trumps policies as regards kim jong un well there he's constantly undermining his defense secretary and secretary of state who i believe won a diplomatic solution i think the president's tweets as personal insults of the north korean leader are very unhelpful at a time when i think both sides are an increased state of tension in the region is

and terrible tension state and. the policy of the administration pushing china to go in the right direction with north korea is correct but the policy constantly is undermined by the president's tweets in the morning that are far damaging to the policy you see watching mainstream media narratives one's going to conclude that you can't negotiate with them you dealt with north korean foreign minister re what is he like he knows the country well our country he's a diplomat career i found him to be reasonable he is now the foreign minister and i've always felt this is encouraging because he knows the united states and he's a moderate views he's got to worry about the north korean military and kim jong moon and all the pressure on him but i think he's somebody we can. deal with but in

your previous remarks you haven't expressed much approval for the sign of the russian plan to deescalate tensions in korea no i don't think that makes sense what the russian sino provision is is the united states gives up everything and north korea gives up very little basically if we stop the military exercises with south korea north korea stop some of the missile tests while the issue is. house how long do the missile tests of north korea stop what's the duration and we can't stop all of the military ties with south korea i think we can stop some i think a small variation small deal that involves a reduction on both sides of the testing in the rhetoric and the military efforts to just get talks started and worry later about a long term potential solution which is going to be difficult to achieve which is

the denuclearization of the peninsula by north korea and the united states taking off sanctions and. ending the armistice with north korea and ending the military maneuvers that's going to be a long term solution but what is needed is an immediate easing of tensions in a region that might blow up you seriously think that the new clearly they should is on the table if there are other countries gave up their nuclear weapons and were arguably destroyed by u.s. foreign policy it's going to be very difficult to achieve complete denuclearization but i think what we should aim for is the halting of the missile development of the research of the placing of a nuclear warhead on a missile that potentially could hit the united states i think that is achievable complete the nuclear ization. it's going to be very hard to achieve but that

doesn't mean that you give it up as a goal but what's most important is an easing of tensions in the peninsula if it blows up you've got twenty five million people in seoul that are immediately vulnerable artillery shells nuclear missile shots and american troops and a region that includes japan south korea china that could be very vulnerable to a destabilizing and a military confrontation you already referred to donald trump's tweeting i think the status of jerusalem was. manifested itself in a tweet as regards this administration tell me about your concerns as far as. u.s. interests in recognizing jerusalem as the capital of israel well i'll say one thing the compass done with israel that that i favor and that's he's enhanced the

relationship with israel the relationship us israel is quite strong but that doesn't mean you jeopardize. negotiations with the palestinians with the unilateral declaration of the embassy in jerusalem and that's what's got to happen you make that deal in the context of the goshi ations probably a division between the palestinians and israel protecting the religious sites of all sides but to make that determination that has been rejected by republican presidents american presidents democratic presidents giving up something without in return getting something plus the palestinian people are going to be very difficult to negotiate they won't negotiate it's going to inflame tensions in the arab world the european community is going to be very unhappy so this is. unexplainable and

you know you sit here and react every three or four hours to something that has been a foundation of american foreign policy nato the transpacific partnership the trade agreement with mexico and canada relations with the european union u.s. relations with germany now the tweeting of this muslim video in great britain harming the relationship between the united states and great britain are our greatest ally this is something that is very very disturbing a huge surprise that in the post brics in britain looking to. trade deals and so when there are widespread pools here now to cancel the state visit of donald trump to as you say what's perceived here is the great ally of the united states great britain well it doesn't surprise me these calls i've been hearing from my british leaders that the visit should be cancel but now they've intensified now they've

become an issue because of these insulting tweets where are not factual that insult the british people the the anti terror policy of the recent may and the british government that you're our best friends and you don't go around insulting best friends with without any reason and so. i'm this is a cost of the united states because britain has always been our strongest ally militarily economically trade wise you know we share so many cultural similarities and now the relationship has been frayed unnecessarily it's not even a foreign policy or military issue it's just an insult i should say it was a donald trump read tweet of a right wing hate group i mean on the other side of things i mean these little drum cancelled see i. backing. islam is in syria so hillary clinton would have damascus

wouldn't she have. i don't know you know you can't speculate i do think that the president was correct in and bombing syria after it was determined that they were using chemical weapons on their own people i think that was the appropriate response but what worries me is what i'd like to see is a long range agreement to oust assad possibly with russia's cooperation but you need european allies in the fight against isis on syria and iran and you know our european allies are starting to question american leadership i mean we were hanging year with a president that wants to be an isolationist and an economic nationalist to the detriment of american interests in asia giving it up to china in latin america not

having any policy in europe insulting and not working with our european allies and so many issues of common ground ambassador bill richardson thank you now after the break good thousands of criminals go free because of the privatization of forensic science is that the reason may we speak to the so-called gold father of forensics about what could be up to ten thousand cases of alleged data manipulation in the private lab all the civil coming over but to have going on the ground. like when you're on those thrones. if somebody would have been going to spend my life to playing to get into the discovery process. the solti was clearly seen.

every night over we were attacked by the arabs over we will attacking them and we will extremely shocked. saying but that's not possible oh meet those moved in such scenes and then the soldiers simply myself. lose both wampus and the host with all the prisoner we've all dealt with over they all. believe much second close citizens in the on call. most likes and let me give my head that there is no way to be able to live together without. the strong odds but.

it's a mess a million. wonder when they hit a car the city leading. to a new twist in the multiple fields a. little. of this i love either the new night stand or when i'm in the mall riminton risk a friend with a foot on the cliff is a moment up on the u.s.s. i will get on the one that was in the beginning to see him. so. i thought that.

welcome back u.k. authorities claim the complex forensic investigation into one of the world's worst tower block fires in history at the grand felt hour in london the subject of an inquiry today has identified all children who are missing but according to some scientists privatization under tourism a could be putting the science that identified the children at risk of going underground in jeopardy here that are so massive back to investigate in this special report. forensic science is at the very barns of our criminal justice system a trace of d.n.a. a strand of hair and the turp or taishan all of those could be in the difference between your imprisonment or freedom. and the government's forensic science regulated dr julian tully is said to austerity cuts could be putting this justice at risk. but these concerns are not the u.k. science and technology committee raised the potential dangers of slashing funds and

privatization to the u.k. prime minister to resign may's department when she was home secretary in two thousand and eleven i spoke to the then chair of the u.k. science and technology committee andrew miller there were two reports carried out while you were chair of the science and technology select committee and are quite clear that a lack of funding is a threat to forensic sciences at the first report was following the government's decision to privatized the f.s.s. closed down the fed as effectively and distribute forensic science into the private sector the second was a follow up a couple of years later to assess whether concerns had been addressed and whether there were remaining problems some people would say you were a labor m.p. of course you're against the process ation of public services well is the issue we

were very clear on a cross party basis unanimously on this in both reports we were against privatisation per se but we were against it was a botched structure which undermined the delivery of justice in this country. a system where you ended up. with forty three police forces with independent responsibility for forensic science with a handful of private sector companies some extremely good and some a bit questionable to say the least in the marketplace and a regulator with insufficient powers to ensure that standards were at the highest possible level so our fact is that structure has that structure worsened

since those reports are put out well i'm firmly of the belief that in the not too distant future we'll see a case a course of their case that will be the circumstance. individuals or an individual ends up on the wrong side of the bars or the the criminal who seems to be bone dry it's getting away with it because of botched forensic science or indeed the innocent person not having access to the best for and sick science in his or her defense. i'm going to speak to one of those forty three forces that andrew miller had mentioned tracy alexander is the director of forensic services for the city of london police she's previously worked for private lab l g c forensics as head of their cult kicks team and the directorate of forensic services at the metropolitan police and since the closure of the f.s.s.

i think bruce is the first country to go fully privatized yet friends if you think there are any problems or not yeah i think there's a lot of problems in it there are some advantages also in that britain all say has the it's got the speediest forensic operation the feel like in that if i said a d.n.a. swab i'll get it back if i paid enough for a get back today i get back tomorrow for pretty much standard cost that's fairly unique in the world but that's developed as a result of competition if you have labs competing with each other to win contracts what do you want they say to place forces we want all this stuff quicker and cheaper then they do things quicker and the price has gone way down so it's very cheap in some cases and it's very quick the downside to it is that if you do something in order that you must make profit because you must pay all shareholders

and you must show that your share price is increased then something must fall away and in some cases i think that's the quality part of the speed costs triangle a survey conducted by the new scientist magazine found that night. the percent of scientists including those ready working in the private sector to closing the forensic science service would have a negative effect with three. believing it would lead to an increase in miscarriages of justice one of those scientists professor peter garrett. d.n.a. profiling technology and has been closely involved in high profile crime cases such as the owner bombing and the trial of amanda knox he was the principal research scientist at the forensic science service who is closed but. the government is fixed on an agenda and i think that in the list of priorities. low down

on the list. unfortunately. policy doesn't normally change with these kind of kind of things unless we are actually follows all. now we've had this experience before in forensic science back in the 1980's with the wrongful convictions of the birmingham six judith ward. etc again this is an example of a will for willing or. and it caused a huge public outcry and when this happens you fall in that the government will actually release funds into the system and that she that's how she became recruited into the forensic science service myself it was on the back of these miscarriages of justice and yet your funding which was which was made. available i think we're probably approaching a similar period of time. governments don't actually reacts a list something bad happens otherwise there is nothing that's the way they think i

think we extremely sure. they don't they don't want to. put money into something less they're absolutely convinced that something is going wrong the problem is. by the time something has gone wrong it's already to lie through there could be multiple people right so in prison terms of the shouldn't be yes i would not be surprised if this was the case well has a wheel just for not. up to ten thousand cases including rape and murder could be compromised after allegations of data manipulation at the privately run run docs testing services laboratory in manchester to former employees of the salute to use or alleged of manipulated samples continuing undetected for nearly four years. it was just a case of a few bad apples or is it now issues of regulation it's not as if the forensic

side service never made mistakes and i'm not being critical of them or any organization i think every single lab has made some mistakes and it's not a case of they weren't tested thoroughly enough. or that there isn't sufficient regulation there are people working and then the one thing that one can say firmly about the f.s.s. is that the oversight within its own internal structures was far more robust than that that occurs in the fragmented structure now and again and is no criticism of the. regulator that's about the powers that she hasn't got the commercial companies are set up to be. run a conveyor belt system that means there were the only test samples one says they want to do is quickly as possible. because they've got speed is cost effective.

the regulator the system will check to make sure that they've got a protocol that the protocol is fit for purpose they'll check to make sure the fridge is of the right temperature and that sort of thing and therefore it is actually quite difficult to pick up. a situation where evidence has been deliberately tampered with now when i was in the forensic science. there was quite a big quality group and what they used to do. they would send out mock cases to the butcheries now these these when these the bushies receipt the these cases they didn't know they were real cases this and israel cases but of course the quality group they know what the answers are and

these would be sent out regularly to the trees and the results would come back the results would be analyzed if there was something wrong then that would initiate a review and sometimes things go wrong. it's only by having a system like this where you're actually interrogating the trees that you can actually pick up where the things are going wrong or not so quality has to be said has to be extremely proactive you actually have to go into the butcheries. you actually have to test the theory with casework. blind case work in this way. and the other way to minimize difficulties of this nature is replication duplication of results maybe not in every case but you could have a policy where you. pick a result from the maybe they go to the base to make sure they get the same

result. now this isn't done. because it would be too expensive to those two things no longer happen because you know your blood goes those things that happened. because the it is forensic science in the u.k. is dictated by price. prison and your case is one of the ones allegedly template because after the closure of the forensic science service is reportedly become police policy to destroy evidence from certain cases still be . still active i mean where is where is all our stuff go now it's still active in the things from the forensic science service is still in it but there is no current archive to go with the particular. that both the go i asked my back so if i said something then i have all the

exhibits and some exhibits generated by the oratory returned here and we store them here i don't know other forces do when the the f.s.s. folded up of course we got a huge archive and takes a lot of work and expense to actually maintain it so the problem is is that when the the cards were taken over thanks for you boy the. the police organization. made a decision which they're going to actively destroy material except for the most serious cases of actually had experience myself dealing with a case which i'm doing in defense in which not only samples have been destroyed but also the case files have been destroyed and i'm talking about

a prison prisoner who has been protesting his innocence for many years i can't get hold of the phone. destroyed ever destroyed the oil as normal are. just talking about my experience but i'm sure that it has happened in the case which i'm dealing with it must have been happening with with other cases so the problem i have is i have no idea why he was convicted because i can't get over the scientific evidence. and that's purely like a money saving issue oh yes it's completely it's money it's very expensive to maintain the archives and this never featured when the f.s.s. was was closed it was losing x. million pounds but i'm sure that they never factored in all of the collateral issues in particular the f.s.s. all of it depends on the seriousness of the crime. my understanding but often.

is they will destroy the evidence and in my case the evidence can be destroyed even if individuals are still in prison and actively appealing their cases from freeing those imprisoned for a crime they didn't commit to identifying those killed in the grunfeld tower tragedy forensic science is a crucial delivery of justice in the united kingdom with the u.k. prime minister to raise them a. years of cuts not only to forensic sciences but to legal aid and the police services will she have blood on her hands if they're innocent punished and the guilty go free. and that's it for the show will be back on wednesday with the chair of britain's ruling in the battle of conservatives for international development secretary with

his take on british complicity from the world's biggest humanitarian crisis the worsening situation children keep in touch via social media with twenty eight years to the day of a provisional ira attack on a virtual british army base in derry yard in northern ireland. he will stay. turned to terrorist attack in manhattan you suspect. explosion. three other people were also hurt. but visits three middle eastern countries in one day. most recently after he visited

a russian base in syria where he announced they would draw all the troops in the country. gyptian accountable. prime minister is traveling around europe in. support for donald trump's recognition of jerusalem as the capital of israel however. europe would followed suit.