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below and welcome to cross talk we're all things considered i'm peter lavelle trust in the mainstream media is an all time low but no one should be surprised in the media has itself to blame for this sad state of affairs is a self-inflicted wound and actually a conscious business model the media no longer has an interest in reporting the news media today propagates ideology. crosstalk in the state of the media i'm joined by my guest eric alterman in new york he is a sunni distinguished professor of english and journalism at brooklyn college as well as the liberal media columnist for the nation also in new york we have lionel he's a legal analyst and a news decoder at lionel media dot com and implements we cross to patrick and he is

a journalist writer and founder of the news website twenty first century wired dot com all right gentlemen crosstalk. rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciate it let me go to lionel first in new york i'm not going to list all of the mistakes the mainstream media has made over the last few months because that would take up the entire program and then some suffice to say lionel i think it's quite evident that the new york times the washington post c n n m s m b m s n b c and other news organizations they're making mistakes because they have a blind hatred for donald trump their blind hatred is throwing journalistic practices and principles out the window and this is damaging the information sphere in the united states and i would say the political process as well go ahead lionel . i would venture to say is an admixture of trump derangement syndrome in full bloom its negligence its malfeasance and also is that amazing isn't it amazing in shocking perhaps that none of these mistakes every new word to the benefit of trump

or anybody else or they never deal with hillary clinton or those of the so-called left and progressive left or whatever it's always a unit directional mistake there is never and by the by the biggest problem right now that is facing this country is not this this this this problem in this proliferation i should say of sexual dalliances it's the fact that today's mainstream media today's ted baxter sockpuppet echo chamber rants and ossified media is dead it's through isn't it death throes and the faces an existential threat that's their problem and you'd think they'd be shaping up as you know you could then so really were negligent that eric let me go do you think that's a very good point to mention i mean they should be they should get their act together but you know we had we still don't know why three different outlets confirm the same. bogus russia story last week they just had

a retraction or an update but they don't they don't explain to the public how they came to that disastrous conclusion across the board i mean no wonder people don't trust the media anymore they're not transparent go ahead eric. i find everything i've heard said on this program so far to be ridiculous i think the mainstream media or first of all the word media is a plural noun so to talk about the media you have to make distinctions between which media you're discussing. i think the media you mean which is c.n.n. new york times washington post and cetera i think they're an impossible position because they are faced with a president who lies on average six times a day that's a statistic compiled by the washington post he probably lies much more than that but those are the lies they've caught using a very narrow definition of a lie so the mainstream media doesn't act the mainstream media doesn't lie is that what you're saying first of all we're talking. well i'm pretty capable of saying

exactly what i want so you don't put words in my mouth but i'm trying to understand your words flies fox news fox news lies but no the mainstream media by and large certainly the new york times washington post and other reputable outlets never lie on purpose they make with stakes but it's very hard to cover a president who is purposely undermining american democracy who again lies on average six times a day and doesn't care that it's called lying let me ask you a question just take one for instance donald trump repeatedly tweeted that barack obama wiretapped him on purpose now the justice department found that that was not true has not appeared they're saying how there seems to be overwhelming evidence that he was sitting on a less than he was i don't survey i'm not i'm not around then i don't know there's no i wouldn't i don't know i know i said before that i'm sort of that thought and i don't want to have any filibustering it's one but it's i believe in freedom feel about for and i want to hear that freedom of speech from patrick inclement go ahead

patrick react to what you've heard so far of. first of all i'm going to disagree with what eric said about defining the terms i'm going to say media as a singular entity because when it comes to all things rush and grammatical things and trying to media do it well it might be grammatically correct but it does represent the reality of the situation which is that media is completely together in lockstep reading off the same hymn sheet on all things russian and if you want to talk about the mainstream media this these are all fake news stories for mainstream media this is just my file for the washington post the new york times c.n.n. granted cnn's house for this but this is perhaps my favorite pokey man go was hijacked by vladimir putin to mislead americans this is a c.n.n. exclusive this is just one example of many and to say that the the. what you're

doing eric is is creating a false equivalency trying to compare donald trump's twitter tirades to the fourth what's supposed to be the fourth estate who has a collective budget operating budget of over ten million ten billion sorry billion dollars in the united states all of these mainstream media outlets basically putting out fake news the c.n.n. wiki leaks story is quite interesting because the same so-called sources were used apparently by c.b.s. news as well as c.n.n. and others and you read the e-mail and you can see the date it was september fourteenth so i had the question is you know were these did these sources actually read the so-called evidence or should it have been done in braille or or the c.n.n. so journalists so-called journalists are they illiterate how does this type of mistake come to come to be and how is it repeated and passed on to other laundered laundered through c.n.n. and then on can be said b.s. and i mean you are a c.n.n.

uses twitter i don't like to put fake news out and retracts it let me go to line here i mean it's that's ok the story that was just mentioned by patrick there i mean it's a they want to believe in what they say this is they see this in the they jump on board is it laziness or is it you know what level of intentionality because had i said there's so many of them i mean patrick has held up a whole stack of the i mean it seems endless i could can't imagine this would have happened during the obama administration go ahead lionel well. well it first had to start off with the idea as evidence exhibit a by well after all you have the most lying president so therefore anything that happens is somehow waiting cancelled by the fact that well trump is a liar let's take this week now you know how is a c.n.n. story about donald trump and a wiki leaks memo or an e-mail and all it did was a reading a day correctly so it's all in the fall which is reading the data. really and not

say oh for fourteen is all it was it was a transposition of numbers that's all it was now you tell me how donald trumps mendacity and thank you for clarifying that medium is a singular noun not a plural but tell me how to their employer we now know the same name down city you get a wrong guilty to two to wax veritas twin you explain to me how that has anything to do with c.n.n. or somebody else to say you know what we made a mistake that's all it is. eric you want to reply to that go ahead sure first of all i'm not here to defend the stand and i think c.n.n. is pretty crappy and they did make a mistake and they did admit it. so journalists make mistakes old time it's a very imperfect. practice that's why it's called the first draft of history the press is there to make room said that what you what you were doing what you were doing what you were doing is actually trying to create

a false equivalence between the deliberate lies of the trump administration and its supporters and the mistakes that are part of being a jerk part of a journalist i'm not saying don't make mistakes i'm not saying this will not think you know united smits i'm still not there has been very specious premix has done no trouble it's not what has gone from i'm not done i'm not not that of a confident when has donald trump admitted that or kodama was born in the united states. no waiting ok let's talk about something out which i had happen this is very good all to say ok good thing else you're on talk about what we're talking about now bring something else up fantastic look i want to give you an example just going i was attacking your absolutely baseless claim you said the problem is forget the fact that this is fake media we have the most lying the most mendacious president there is that's what you said i was addressing that so what do you do when you're losing the argument let's bring up the bursar thing let's change the

subject but i don't know with whom you do they owe a lot of bases listen to a little not what i said what i said is work what i said is listen fucking what i said you're misrepresenting what i said why you're misrepresenting what i said what i said is i don't think they're difficult. speak go ahead eric go ahead go ahead what i said i did not change the subject what i said is the media are not up to the job of covering a president who lies on average six times a day and doesn't care that he's caught lying will just lie every time he's caught lying so they're not that's very difficult to do because you can't fact that every single sentence the president says so they're going to make mistakes there's going to be more mistakes they're going to be serious mistakes that does not take away from the fact that this president is what i say eleanor minding our democracy and our media and our media are going to hold a lot of holding that stands between it well in. their head of course we go to paris it seems to me this really low standards of journalism that's what's this

drawing democracy and the faith in the system that the journalism has to take responsibility for what they do forty seconds patrick before we go to the break go ahead newsflash eric and everybody politicians lie barack obama i'm going to close gitmo with through the president and i could get on and on and on on those laws so politicians i was elected also can't you know we love let me finish let me finish sir let me. finished or ok you can expect to make excuses for what you call the fourth estate and sort it's ok for them to what you call make mistakes they're fabricating news stories they're fabricating sources they are literally making up news and putting it out on the cycle there is no evidence of russian collusion eighteen months later there's nothing fake news for eighteen straight months on all the major networks and newspapers that is the fake news crisis it is not done right gentlemen i'm going to channel made here where you go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on the state

of the media stay with our team. from venice that is. very much from the existing plurality rule system because he was so different from the other candidate if you took any one of those mainstream candidates and you put him in

a head to head contest with trump. that other candidate might well have won. local much across like we're all things considered i'm peter bell to remind you we're discussing the state of the media. ok let me go back to eric in new york and i think you would least concede that the liberal mainstream media has it out for trump and i think that's why they're making all of these mistakes because they have a certain goal and anything that they can get their hands on or even make up they're going to employ because they think they're morally correct they think they're doing the right thing i actually believe that they think that they're doing the right thing but what i do what bothers me is what we said in this program is it

damages the profession of journalism in the process and the trust people have in the media go ahead eric well first of all i concede nothing you just said to go back to the previous point i happen to have written my doctoral dissertation at stanford university on presidential lying on the history of presidents like i published a book called when presidents lie and i'm writing a second book on presidential lying right now for basic books. not all presidents and almost no one ever told a lie may i finish or it may i finish may i finish. obama well do you and your new like. eric keep going eric keep going. well the example you brought up sir it's not a lie obama said he would close gitmo he tried to close gitmo and congress would let him that's not a law without a willing that's a failed policy we're still waiting you know in years later finish may have. you're waiting for obama because i want to know when it's going to close president hillary

clinton. benefit and. may i finish you have to answer the to answer the moderators question. the little quote unquote liberal media are not liberal the mainstream media is in the business of making money that's why during the campaign donald trump was given billions of dollars in free media with his speeches being carried live his phone calls been carried live where he lied consistently lied about virtually everything he said as again he has told according to the washington post count has been eric's error and then it is her and this right is a program is about letting me finish well because you're going into the weeds again this program is about professional we journalists lives we don't need to hear the crickets on these other topics ok i mean birth urson you know all of this is not on top of what it's about get it he put actual is on of journalism and they are breaking their bond with the public the polls show it ok let me go to lionel last

year c.b.s. news said the president said trump is good for c.b.s. for exactly the same reasons that eric mentioned here it's not about getting the story right it's about the kind of propaganda they want to propagate and make money off of it that is a disgrace to journalism you should stop calling it journalism then leinil go ahead this is going to be one of the greatest interviews discussions ever because this fella does exactly i beg to differ what everybody hates he is the personification of that which we hate prevarication and not admitting which is true and obvious to anybody the issue that peter asked was what do you do about not fake news not bias because we can argue bias all day long but what about when they just get it wrong. then they just get about that's the framework mr p.h.d.

that's the framework so what this fella does is sort of answering that because he can't answer he's smart enough to realize i have no answer let me throw in something about trump being a liar and that is the reason why the mainstream liberal media is dying for me to last for all those everybody knows it and you sure are exhibit a and i present to the jury that is the world see this is what it's about can't even answer the question all you had to do was just concede that the jew the duty of journalism is just to get it right what it killed your fella to say that but you can't do it because you know we i don't know i don't know i guess i mean there's some kind of a and man american that i'm headed in one hundred claiming let me go to patrick here but patrick one of the things that gets going i don't know you like to deal with facts here but unlike the liberal media that makes make things up i mean you

know it was seventeen intelligence agencies. it's a fact that the the d.n.c. was hard but the f.b.i. never looked at the servers the d.n.c. didn't allow that what i'm getting at is that you keep hearing on c.n.n. and this n.b.c. eccentric cetera they keep repeating the same unsubstantiated claims as if it is. a law of gravity and you never hear anybody pushing back there this group think this is exactly what it is it's group think and it's turned into a cult with the real it's a religious cult now they have and anyone that violates it is considered a heretic go ahead patrick like us i suppose you know for us i will agree with eric that it's not a liberal media exclusively per se that happens to be a kind of a liberal hysterical insurgency right now in the mainstream media but c.n.n. will read straight off of pentagon briefing. for state department briefings and the new york times will do the same straight off the party line on certain issues so

they really are there to protect the establishment whether that's a liberal or a conservative establishment or military industrial complex establishment you just have to have this hysteria going on the problem with all journalistic standards have been thrown out the window in the last eighteen months because when it comes to anything russia or trump but especially russia this is much bigger than trump by the way this is as a geo political scope to it it's tell don't show so the accusations get rolled out but they don't actually have any evidence can out can someone find me one piece of evidence that russia hacked the us elections or even hacked the d.n.c. or colluded or meddled or anything nothing the facebook bought story that everybody ran with from the washington post new york times that was if you really drill down on that story that was a case of the obama administration colluding with a silicon valley company facebook senator warner from virginia did multiple trips

over there to tried to extract some story about russian bots finally facebook capitulated and gave him a narrative about all these russian bots purchasing facebook ads it's a laugh and that dominated the united states mainstream all the networks news cycles for i don't know how long weeks ok that is a fake story that is a fabricated narrative it's designed for a specific political purpose the problem with political journalists and biased partisan journalists and eric i think you unfortunately do fall in to that category is that you're good for the party but you're not really not good for america because you're just you're picking one side and you're letting the people who are singing you're singing your song off the hook every single time that is the problem ok let me go to eric and you know we had david from from the atlantic the same man that brought his. w m d's in iraq. coined the phrase axis is evil ok and he in the eleven take oh it was on c.n.n.

and he said about this story that the networks got wrong on this email leaks to. the trump campaign he said mistakes are precise it's the process of bringing because were wrong people should trust in their representative right now and i said it and that from donald trump but they give they're not i'm not i'm not asking you to me i get a little bit like we have i don't have a degree in journalism you know that's another mistake it would have been better and what apologize that i had i apologize ok i made a mistake of saying see journal a real journalist get a real journalist do it ok i don't have to carry water for c.n.n. or any but i made one here go ahead lionel. bad pit or bad bad that what could have been done was originally what this fella could have done this fella could have said look we live in a different world right now it's a twenty four seven machine it is runaway train it's this monster it's you got to

feed constantly the days of cronkite the days of being able to sit around in your office in luxury until six o'clock and double and triple check that's a part of the problem maybe there's a zealousness maybe there's a part of bias he could have answered that that's that's a real problem because it's the immediacy it's the days of social media it's the fact that citizen civilian journalists and alternative media and foreign media are chomping at the bit are and chomping at the heels of these people i understand it now but that could have been done but instead and this is the ball and i hope peter that somehow everybody remembers us and just just takes takes this fella's comment and just says this is the problem it's always trump even when you could have very easily said ok look i make a concession look at problems or no no even then we don't give and change the same thing with russia even though right now we've been talking about this story and not one person in any medium or the media actively has ever been able to say here is

the best evidence of any kind of collusion or change of the photo whatever even though that's never been done i don't miss a beat and they don't give in and you just keep forward that's the problem and when in doubt when your back is against the wall when you have absolutely nothing going to let me jump in and let me let me give let me give allow during the last two on let me give patrick the last word i think one of the interesting things in this information war that's going on is that how the the mainstream media allows itself to be played by trump every single day he's calling the shots they loathe him but he's actually determining the new cycle and they cannot accept that and i think that's one. thing that they need to get their head around go ahead last few seconds patrick go ahead sure whether it's the fake dossier put out by buzz feed and echoed by c.n.n. and all these other sort of fake stories about trump and donald trump has a right to go to twitter at that point and defend himself and i would to anyone

else would probably do the same if they're in his position whether he's a pathological liar and ok i'm patrick on that or i'm not i'm very spirited discussion gentlemen but we've run out of time many thanks to my guests in new york and in plymouth and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at r.t.c. you next time and remember talk rules. when you don't. get a court to do. what the. dropping bombs bring. but if i'm stephen

paul. collingwood go you'll suspect. proud american first of all i'm just george bush in our view to say this is my buddy famous financial guru well she's a little bit different. going to the well you know with those with all the drama happening in our country and. every day americans. look to the store to bridge the gap this is the great american people. are.

the welcome to all to part give me a ladder and the fulcrum and i shall move to wild almost every politician in these day and age use a summer edition of the archimedes pledge in search of power but very few deliver out to gaining it is that due to the lack of striving or perhaps trying for all the wrong things to discuss that i'm now joined by eric musk an american economist and two thousand and seven nobel laureate professor musk and it's great to talk to you think you're for spending some time for us thanks for the invitation now you're best known for mechanism design theory you've got your nobel prize for them as far as i understand it's a bit like reverse engineering your started out with a goal you want to achieve and you work backwards and i can see how it can be easily applied to electoral politics running for office but is it just as a political to running the office governance which by definition is far more

diffused when it comes to the stated goals. yes well i think mechanism design comes into politics first in the design of governments. where when a country is trying to figure out how it is going to allocate power to the executive to the legislative it will draw up a constitution and the process of designing and executing a constitution is an exercise in mechanism design but i soon the challenge here would be not only defining and sort of operationalizing your goals but also prioritizing them and as much as you want to bring more mathematics and science into governance do you think it's actually possible realistic to construct that multi-layered gover.