former head of the u.n. international law commission christian thomas shot. these really palestinian conflict is heating up once again with american recognition of jerusalem as israel's capital causing riots and clashes over the west bank clerics in gaza calling for a general uprising against israel what will the american decision help accomplish in the middle east how will the world react to washington's move and can the roll over jerusalem become a spark that will ignite more bloodshed the age old conflict. question tom was shot former had of the u.n. international law commission welcome to the show it's really great to have you on our program now mr summers that strongest move to recognize to resilin as the capital of israel goes against the u.n. security council resolutions that the u.s. itself supported like you said the tell me can the usa go against a legally binding decision stat it has backed itself. the security council did not . legally binding decisions on jerusalem but there are many. of

those security council which. focus on. one of those resolutions has been was the background of paul's by the united states why you resort. to all the measures aiming to incorporate a true solution into the israeli territory now and void this was also as i said already backed by united states that was in nine hundred seventy one a very important prison to nine hundred ninety eight of nine hundred seventy one and also we have. a drug free opinion of the international court of justice which clearly sounds out of jerusalem east jerusalem is still not part of israel is occupied territory occupied territory this is a multi international court of justice said and. i think this is

a high is the authority in the field of international law now and this whole situation all those actions are illegal can the palestinians go to some sort of a court that would actually reassure their right to mr resilin for example and what kind of court would that mean well that's very difficult there is he interested code of justice that already in two thousand and four pronounce itself on the status in particular of the volga which was constructed kweisi by east on palestinian territory and i think we have no other caught it is the internet court of justice and it might well be that. advisory opinion could be requested by the general assembly for example the general assembly has a power to request an advisory opinion from the international court of justice the first one was on the wall and the second one could be on the status of jerusalem.

so as we're stablish strops move may be contrary to international law which doesn't recognize israel's sovereignty over all of jerusalem but they accusations of illegality don't stop anything from happening today. the question is how can actually that not compatible is international law how can they be stopped you know this this in a way is a reclusive general weakness of enters a no international has no police force no army it relies on. compliance voluntary compliance by the states on the rules of international. in this regard unfortunately. israel is not very good to say it fairly well you're in general assembly had a vote on the u.s. decision and they u.s. and way to the u.n. nikki haley's sat president trump taking this very personally president himself

said he will cut off financial aid to countries who vote against this decision well washington achieve anything here by threats. well the united states should not. act by oppression and coercion on other states i think is it's there's not a fan's this is not compatible this he sovereign equality of stays states must be able to all pronounce themselves freely in the general assembly of the united nations and take said decisions freely without i outside hindrance i think and if president trump takes it personally is this an altar parameter because it's not a personal matter between him and the palestinians he's a president of the united states and he should take care of the interests of the united states and also of israel i think we also have to take care of see long term

interests of the jewish people who have an interest in peace and stability in the middle east how unprecedented is this move by haley sending a memo to one hundred eighty countries basically instructing them how to vote does this happen knowledge time in today's united nations well you know you can always has a head of state you can always suggest stars or countries that they should vote in a specific sense it says alter your freedom of as a sovereign country toe establish contacts with other countries with your friends and tell them persuade them to vote in a specific and sense but then it should be no pressure i think threat of interrupting financial assistance because many a time when your name like it does seem like washington thinks it runs the united nations no. yeah sampson in

a way that. seems to be the case but to washington of course cannot run the united nations there's a santa a community of one hundred ninety three nations the united states has a permanent seat on the security council but it did that does not make the united states a master of the united nations that is very clear there must be agreement and we have to seek consensus within the united nations the law washington of course is not the master of the united nations. care were still in and they say act has been the us law sends nine hundred ninety five but us presidents from bill clinton to barack obama decided to postpone the actual moving of the embassy not to jeopardize the shaky middle east talks the israeli palestinian peace talks are at the same stalemate like for twenty years now why take this decision now. in

a way no we have to realize that the occupied territories now exist since a fifty years. i think this time falls a palestinian. right to self-determination which has also a territorial component as the international community as a whole must make a laugh otoh bring peace to the middle east. i think this is not only in the interests of the palestinians but as i said before also means the interest of jerusalem because he. is because it isn't it is however true interest and stability and peace but such measures as taken by trump do not favor stability and peace in the middle east and ensures them exactly seeing how sensitive and inflammatory the issues of east west jerusalem are why would washington go i have and do something that causes this explosion of passions

american decision actually ends up in danger and the security of its ally israel it's a very bad moment and the peace process might crew be killed in. florida . the most recent solution that is very very clear. it's. inappropriate moment i think trump is electing good advises to advise him on a reasonable policy is received on the palestine israel and had to wrestle him in particular trump asked that he's fulfilling a campaign promise given to his electorate so as does know about votes in the american election. the not about the situation in israel and palestine is trump pleasing his voters and the expanse of peace in the middle east while you should not really. engage in foreign policy vis regard to your

electorate your national electorate international policies should not be dependent on the rims and fences of the moment so i think any state that has a role to play in international polities house to seek consensus in a peaceful. consensus was on nations which also have a to say on that matter why is the american opinion on the matter especially important it's more a symbolic move than anything else now. well the american the american opinion is important because america the united states is a. great power a big power and military power in particular and the united states can do many things or other states might follow all the example

of the united states if it's a good example of course. states should follow the american example but if it's a bad example they should really heat the rules of international over it which are fairly clear eastern roesler i'm entering is not part of the israeli territory it is under international terrorist action. the interview committee has decided to pursue a stimulus however right of self-determination this is very clear and people that has a right of self-determination must also have a territory and a capital united nations can pass and less resolutions condemning the united states movement it's quite expected that the u.s. will veto all of them you know in general assemblies decisions are non-binding as well so does the u.n. have any political weight here can they really influence the united states or avert

their decision i think in the long run this will pressure to see united states president see interests of the united states the united states is visibly isolated on that issue and if you are alone or if you'll act alone without the support of your allies and friends this will put you in a very difficult situation and in the long run at least in all be very harmful to your own interests. all right we're going to take a short break right now and when we're back we'll continue disk. whether the us recognition of jerusalem as israel's capital will throw a wrench into the fragile middle east peace talks with christian former head of the un international law commission.

in the news with the numbers of the other you're going to see the view out on thursdays move up to a lot of things. coming up with all other. players who knew. when you don't. see the gallic try to get a court to do. what they do not through only ten spaces to. make. left

alone kelly said. claiming to know somebody did that to. alex you speak french. those old clothes while it. was sandel fulton you. could. cut down towards. the luck.

and we're back with christian thomas shot former hat on the u.n. international law commission discussing washington controversial decision to move its embassy to jerusalem and the abhorrent costs in the international community welcome back mr thomas had not i'm just wondering why is the united states move creating so much controversy if you look at it on the other hand it's merely an assertion of what they've been saying for about twenty five years besides the israeli government institutions have been in jerusalem for decades so it's pretty much just an acknowledgement of fact no well you know the situation is different we should not speak generally of them there are two parts of. east jerusalem west

jerusalem easter jerusalem is occupied territories as determined by the international court of justice east jerusalem has an international status it is not israeli state territory it has an international status and according to the principle self-determination it should be attributed to palestine should be the base of. capital fold the palestinians the e.u.'s federica mugger raney has rita rated that blocks consolidated approach towards to two state solution to the israeli palestinian problem with jerusalem being the capital for both the using the e.u. is headed towards recognizing the state of palestine. while that might well be the case i am i am i am not. aware of any move

towards that end and it is difficult and i think really there should now be a negotiating process maybe trumps decision. reflected decision. could really stimulate process a negotiating process because now that so much talk about so much discussion about the situation of jerusalem that could also have a positive effect because people realize that rule him is not just an object of which whose status can be determined unilaterally just by one state the united states which has no power over palestine the whole region israel and palestine the united states is an alien country a third country that has no effective or no decisive role to play

from a legal viewpoint the foreign policy spokesman for the german christian democratic union car l'amore c'est middle east or the nearest is called that way not because it's close to the united states but because it's now here up with the us policy in the region becoming erratic and unpredictable can the e.u. step in and do the job. louses it would be highly recommended will i think so but unfortunately i think the e.u. under present conditions is not really. effective enough it is not. respected as a big power by both sides and unfortunately we have a common foreign policy but but that common power in foreign policy is not supported consensually by all member states that's

a very difficult bone of contention and unfortunately the european union does not have a unified if you point on the issue of jerusalem other minimalists session to at making these rallies talk to the palestinian trust today as for. sense the us is acting too much on the israeli side and the arab states are too and had jewish i think there should be a meeting of those powerful activists and also i count among them russia russia could play a role also i don't know whether china would like to meddle into zs matters because for china the middle east is. a powder keg and there are always remote from as a middle east they didn't like to interfere with those matters but it's a something for the europeans. also for turkey. the european

union in the first place i think so and maybe easier again union will be able to reach a common position on the middle east in the long run at least during the next months because now the it is certain to come to some conclusions. well and turkey are already considering setting up their palestinian amber says and is jerusalem in response to trump's move can other arab states follow certain will list have a domino effect while this this i don't know all because there are so many tensions in the arab. of the arab sanad all of the same opinion but huge efforts should be deployed you know because it's really a powder keg and there could be some explosion that could even lead to war or one day nobody wants it. i want to come back to my position that

the long term interests of the jewish people are peace and stability in the region and therefore you need to preserve some kind of consensus with your neighbors that is simple to live as a good neighbor among neighbors israel's intelligence minister has invited us out of prince to the country to facilitate an oversee the continuation of the peace process can saudi arabia influence make a difference i mean will this unlikely collaborations between israel and saudis last. i think saudi arabia is one of those actives who should engage the best efforts in that negotiating process and i would very much count on saudi arabia among other actors that are they should all come together and push the palestinians and the israelis. should not be so much room for extremists who

want one hundred percent solutions for themselves neglecting the interests of the others when you need to shape you also have to take into account the interests of the partner with whom you are negotiating that is very important and just one sided measures cannot lead to good results hamas has replied to trunks move with a declaration of an intifada and uprising against israel well there actually be one or is that just hamas is p.r. well intifada you know i think it's an act of despair because the palestinians unfortunately have to acknowledge that the peace process is not making progress it's stalled and what can they do said diplomatic. opportunities are very limited souls they intifada i think that's

a cry of almost a trial of despair when people throw stones how this this is nothing very constructive but if you are in such a bad position when you see no real light at the end of the tunnel there's not a will there's only tar there's only dark in the tunnel and we need constructive initiatives and i think from many states people in the. as i said i would also or invite see united states to revisit said declaration and maybe they come together as russia tacky saudi arabia and as as to bring peace and stability to the middle east. house rules in gaza but fatah and its president abbas role in the west bank and are internationally recognized well abbas supports an intifada i think as a responsible but

a senior statesman i would always look for negotiations for look agreement on consensus but that must be also be offered to the palestinian leaders you know there must be a hand which extends to them and tells them that as a viable route to peace this is what they need and i i don't think they are aggressive by nature but what they want they want to move right to existence in the territory without being controlled. also or while. not treated by is of to be all the time under the control of israel is not pleasant almost an acceptable for a nation to be in a way subjugated its of its foreign rule under which they are placed and they

should have very soon their own rules they should be free to make determinations on their own fate. another aspect of the subject is that the number of israeli settlements on the territory of the palestinian authority is growing and there are so intertwined with palestinian towns that imagining an actual and independent palestinian state is very hard right now is there anything that can make israel withdraw its elements from the west bank. well that's that's so difficult because we have the experience of the was stalled of israel from the gaza strip you know was a settlers say they fought violently against the restore all of israeli rule from the gaza strip and now to remove all the settlements from the

west bank seems to be almost impossible some solution must be found maybe those those people would be them while. in palestinian territory under palestinian authority for them it would be hard to accept that would be a solution for them to accept that these territories and says settlements also are ruled by palestinian institutions a palestinian government why not if it's a government under the rule of law this could be accepted it but he must be of course government under the rule of law was out and he remained should without violence but it's imaginable if good will prevails mr thomas shot is that the settlement issue in essence a lot more important to the conflict than the status of jerusalem. the settlement issue is extremely important. you know would it to bring the recognition

of jerusalem as the capital of israel brings every seeing into focus. and the fact that these settlements are growing it's very. i can recall in disconnection of the advisory opinion of the international court of justice which sad that these settlements are unlawful under international no doubt about it this is walty into the cold across the sand and we have to respect it. all right thank you very much for this interview who are talking to christian thomas shocks former had on things you were an international law commission about they are professionals of u.s. recognition of jerusalem as israel's capital that is it for this edition of self and co i'll see you next.

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of the following the one that hit. the the day all rages cold across palestine with clashes continuing after double trouble this isn't a recognized jerusalem as israel's capital. and. we're seeing once again you can see that there's a number of things of people you can see that insist on occupying people with same . visits russia for the first time is british foreign secretary talking try to allege meddling by moscow and even attempted to speak some russian somebody is just give me a pass from the for the room this book because if it's news today you get i guess that's the if is the. will the sport.