so whoever is with him last can sway him and so we saw that really on display last week when he had democratic and republican lawmakers into the white house and he was agreeing with senator feinstein that we need a clean doc a bill which is to give legal standing to the dreamers people who were brought here when they were children and he agreed with her had to be reined in by someone but he told they send a lawmaker is i will sign anything you bring me i have great confidence in all of you forty eight hours later republican lindsey graham and democrat dick durbin came to him with a plan that outlined exactly the conditions that he had proposed two days earlier and he rejected it out of hand used crude language to do so and in the room were hardline senators tom cotton of arkansas law and sonny perdue of georgia who have a competing immigration bill and they had gotten to the president and now he

is say solely rejected the bipartisan bill and lawmakers really don't know where to go from here you know you've been around washington a long time do you think is does he has any strategy to it is do you think he shrewd or he just doesn't know or what. i think he does whatever feels good at the moment he thrives in the adulation of the crowd even if it's a crowd of one who's before him and so he's not an idealogue and i actually thought that was a positive thing when he was first elected i thought he could you know get through all the the tribal partisanship in washington but so far every time he veres towards the center the hardliners in the republican party pull him back and we end up exactly where we were before so. i can't i can't predict

where it's going to go on immigration reform i fear the hardliners will win once again for all the years i knew him and there will be thirty he was a centrist right. what do you make of this just playing to the base. he was a registered democrat i think his attitudes particularly on social issues seem to be liberal liberal yes and his positions now particularly on social issues veer to the right and he is he's playing to his base and i think he is convinced that the bases his insurance policy that's how he got elected he thinks he can assemble the same coalition again in two thousand and twenty should he run for reelection and so whenever he ventures away from the base he comes back and does something that he believes will endure himself even the crude language he used last week crude racist language and they do it lee after he

evidently was on the phone bragging to friends of the base will love this then he saw the complete blowback he got not only in this country but from around the world then he said oh i just didn't say that we have this bizarre discussion in washington over the exact wording that he. it or did not use with some people i believe on the republican side why and basically to protect him was in general john kelly supposed to reload. but he can't control donald trump and he can't control donald trump in the off hours i believe during the day in the white house he monitors any phone calls that get through to the president but at night president loves to just sit on his phone and call this wide circle of friends and acquaintances many of whom he once threw out of his life

and then he welcomes them back so he talks to him a lot of people and some of them really really reinforce his worst instincts and on immigration reform john kelly was that. the department of homeland security before he came to the white house and what got the president's attention was again the way he seemed to eagerly crack down on on immigration what do you make of the mole o'bannon white house don't testify testifies subpoena what do you make of the whole rhythm well well you remember the nixon days when an executive privilege and also bill clinton tried executive privilege that is a formal request at the white house estimate they haven't done it and it's highly doubtful that they can shield bannan from answering questions by invoking executive privilege especially during the time before donald trump even became president so i think bannon understands that he's cut to tell the truth to save his own skin and

all the indications are that he intends to do that with the with the special counsel eleanor was enjoy talking to you thanks so much thank you turning now to the ongoing russia investigation former white house chief strategist steve benen has been subpoenaed to testify before a grand jury in a. federal judges signaled the trial of former campaign manager paul man of sorts and his deputy regain its may start in september october right before the twenty eight hundred midterms let's talk about the latest with constitutional scholar and harvard law school professor emeritus alan dershowitz he joins us via skype alan is also a bestselling author his newest is trumped up how criminalization of political differences in danger's democracy and in minneapolis richard painter professor of law at the university of minnesota and he was the chief white house ethics loom during the

administration of george w. bush and he's vice chair currently of citizens for responsibility and ethics in washington. has now reported that bannon's attorney bill burke was on the phone with the white house during the entire committee interview is that normal richard. well. they turn to the private attorney for him to find a. call wherever he wants that's is. that's up to the white house whether they're going to call. usual for the white house to talk with attorneys for rappers at a criminal defendants in attica said it where we had scooter libby and died it was that a staffer vice president cheney when i was in the bush white house and i don't recall his authorities talk at added body of the white house that i don't know for sure

other than. but it would be highly arguable is there a policy prohibiting that but that's not the type of play that all of the white house would ordinarily like at staff to figure out and we don't know who he was talking to the one of those what do you make of it. well i think at each criminal lawyer would always like to get as much as possible and stay in touch obviously with the white house issued an executive privilege come up relationships come up so i'm not surprised that doesn't seem to me anything shocking about that and i'd need to know what was discussed before i could come to any conclusion. is so rigid nothing has been like this to your knowledge during the bush administration. not that i know of bob i doubt that a white house staff would be checking and when they affix lawyer ever tom i want to talk to a criminal defense lawyer way sir i told them to stay out a particular part of my whether it's a vest

a guy friends or criminal cases protect my part of the white house staff is supposed to stay away from unless they go through the counsel's office that if they are ordinary approach but not necessarily always followed let's remember though that during the first bush administration president bush court. caspar weinberger and five other people on the eve of their trial and the special prosecutor himself came to the conclusion that that was part of a cover up and that it was intended to in the investigation and in fact did in the investigation so you know there's a history of this kind of collaboration between ho tensional defendants who could turn on the president and the white house none of its good none of it should happen we should have a strict separation between prosecution and the executive branch but that's not the

way our system works unfortunately but alan shouldn't the public have basically the right to know i mean what are they hiding no of course but you know the public does every right to know what lawyers and clients discuss they also don't have a right to know when there's a joint defense agreement i don't know whether there is a joint defense agreement but yes in general transparency is a virtue in a democracy but there are also certain privileges executive privilege lawyer client privilege spousal privilege that keep public from learning everything that they'd like to learn about an ongoing case i know about small. lawyers but what religion is executive privilege. well the executive privilege is i'm probably just third from tom to tom by presidents or people work for presidents that would protect the elaborations. within the white house particularly the president's lab rations and communications with paypal lot of staff and others in the ministration this is not

a privilege with a lot of support the case law at saw a question at all it's often asserted and then they. resolution is as negotiate at whether it's back to what will be disclosed a bubble not made his clothes and hair this situation we have outside attorneys talking to white house staff. in the it's not this quote the reason is not going to be disclosed we have no idea who the attorneys talked to if somebody did find out who and they ended up having to testify in front of congress it would probably be a prey way claim of executive privilege white house staff member talking to someone else's criminal defense lawyer. in us and less you know but out without say what happens when we just don't know who they spoke with. alan does the subpoena to the grand jury for ben and does he have to answer questions there yes every american at west including the president of the united states we know that from the nixon tapes

case and from the clinton case now people can negotiate with prosecutors and sometimes they end up not going in front of the grand jury but instead having and if you sometimes under oath sometimes not it doesn't much matter whether it's under oath or not because it's a fill a need to lie to prosecutors even if it's not true but the law is clear that every person has to testify in front of a grand jury unless they invoke prove that you can so grim anation or other legal claims but just because you're the president of the president's assistant or in the white house that doesn't bring a crime to grand jury. alan riches stay right there we'll have more politicking right after this break. is. going to fit into steve jobs kids by coming up with innovative products you

know the electronic gadgets market is a little bit different in the car business because the car business is kind of bound by the highway system and you're bound by the whole infrastructure that is the automotive industry and the lobbying of the automotive industry so it's a bit difficult to be disruptive in the industry in a way he's going to open up his charging stations with one nine hundred fifty style burger and shake joints with servers on roller skates ok that's that's an idea that might take off that might be a new like starbucks like third place that people go to to have an experience that might work in. the new economic war is unfolding in the realm of education the right to education is being supplanted by the right to. education. high education is becoming just

another approach to pool. but it's not just about education anymore it's also about running a business where you know most of the regime. literally could to me. which is the place of students in this business model before college i was born now in an extremely high education the new global economic war. i think that is what the world needs some confidence in space on on coming i strongly believe that the u.s. and europe have pretty please. the united states has been a partner in creating that tool based system. i'm afraid that. through it forwards and especially language president trump has been using and i'm not confident that the contribution of the united states to that school based system. as relevant as it's been.

back to politicking i'm talking with constitutional stollen harvard law school professor emeritus alan dershowitz he's joining us via skype and richard painter the former chief white house ethics lawyer during the administration of george w. bush and alan can counsel moeller talk to president trump if he wants to. if the president wants to talk to him sure there's no problem with that at all look there are there are two extreme positions the one extreme position is that most are constantly subpoena the president make him come and answer questions on any subject without any advance notice of what the secure matter going to be that's one position the other position the white house takes is no the president should be asked questions in writing and he should be able to answer it in writing. i think in the end they'll be a compromise and that will be an agreed upon interview probably in the oval office

probably was some time limits probably with some advance notice as to the subject matters to be covered and probably with his lawyers present and it will be transcribed but perhaps not b.o.t.a. that's the likely resolution rigid good my goal is smoke play any part in the mall investigation. well a cada could get him some line of questioning protect life or pay plaques they have my eye on on some odd they bought that stat what's written on the buckets robber maher may very well have other avenues through which he's already found out and i don't think he's going to give credence to everything that's that's on the book but it certainly gives rise to some ideas for questioning if he doesn't have them already and i know he did you express concern about investigation dealing or should we investigate president trump's mental health. no i don't think so

i think he went through a physical and mental examination where you remember in the one nine hundred seventy s. i went to the union representing dissidents some of whom were locked up in mental hospitals because it was believed that if you oppose communism you must be mentally ill in south africa they said if you oppose the court you must be men real in trying to be locked up dissidents i just don't want to see the psychiatry zation of political difference it's bad enough that we see the criminalization of political differences in less there is a very very very hard evidence of twenty fifth amendment type incapacity i just don't believe that's a proper subject for us an independent or special counsel to investigate who is you what do you think. i don't think that's where then the proper subject of robber muller's a vast a geisha and they twenty fifth amendment doesn't and i find that suggest a mayor that the justice department has a role other than that that the attorney general is of course

a member of the cabinet and the vice president the cabinet ordinarily traeger of a twenty fifth amendment and appropriate circumstances and then the matter goes to the house and the senate i do file that. you know the twenty fifth amendment which was adopted in the late sixty's and the nuclear age does contemplate the risk and as a stream way high risk in some circumstances that you could house somebody in a presidency who would start on nuclear war which could mean the end of human civilization. i think we have to take that very very seriously i mean it's just not for the special prosecutor but it's for the cabinet and the house the senate and i don't think we need to we should propose this i don't i think there are serious issues here by green need to be discussed by the side it by and by the by the paddock members and members of congress. i'll play with

a simple part of the puzzle a glamour model of time whatever you want for the other guys there is the ad about how on earth discussion when we look at his behavior alan do you worry about president trump no i don't. met him on a couple of occasions i don't know him well he does not seem to me to have the symptoms of the kind of mental illness that we're talking about your look we once had a secretary of defense is name was james for still i think there's a ship named after him he was a paranoid schizophrenic who ultimately jumped to his death from walter reed hospital because he thought the communists were chasing him if we haven't had a president like that obviously we would have to take actions but i worry that strong disagreements with the president's politics and style may become confused by some psychiatrists with mental illness we know that barry goldwater who ended up being one of the most stable members of the united states senate and a real paragon of stability and virtue was declared to be mentally ill by over

a thousand psychiatrist when he was running against lyndon johnson who himself was not a paragon of stability and of course was a great civil rights president but got us into a very difficult war so i three much worry about the politicization of mental illness and mary creating a pathology out of the political disagreements we have to stay away from that though we have to be careful to make sure that no person who has access to the nuclear trigger ever has the kind of mental illness that james foresaw i membered i will resume painting do you worry about the president wrong. oh i look at the twitter fade i look at the spaces i look at they statements is my. ad if you put that side by side but barry goldwater there's no comparison. i've never seen and i won as donald trump does and the public arena and such

a high position are it's it's extremely worrisome the way he obsesses on hillary clinton the way he obsesses on the russian investigation the way the tax man our days i mean it's all over and over again and it doesn't make sense a lot of it it doesn't appear to be a coordinated political strategy. and he has comparing his button to the size of the north korean's button and that's not the type of talk i want to hear from someone who has the power to end human civilization but the twenty five of the moment as a verb are high bar i think the program approach is to have this discussion to take it seriously not the pope would have psychiatry's involved in the discussion but it doesn't bar robert mueller and actually remove a president under the twenty fifth amendment would require the majority that covered and then it goes to the house and the senate it's very unlikely unless indeed these concerns are demonstrated in the public arena we're really not like

locking up dissidents of russia who are going out of town and alan doesn't presumes actions consume you. they concern me as a citizen and they affect my vote for him but i voted against him obviously i voted for hillary clinton i am concerned about his politics about his policies but i don't see any indication that we that we should apologize our differences with him i think we should politicize our differences with them and have the media check and balance them and challenge them in court when we think there are appropriate executive orders like the travel order but i think trying to create a kind of mental illness scenario around stylistic differences and other differences taker's down a very dangerous path i agree we're not at where we were with the soviet union or

china but i worry about slippery slopes and i worry about pathology izing political difference alan thanks for your time today we appreciate it thank you larry thank you. in vancouver this week the united states and canada hosts the twenty nations summit to explore ways to tighten sanctions against north korea what do we learn from this and what changes might have happened in our attempt to keep a lid on north korea's nuclear ambitions let's talk with joel rubin he served as deputy assistant secretary of state for legislative affairs in the obama administration and he's president of the washington strategy group joel joins me from snowy washington d.c. how important was that meeting joe. thanks larry for having me on the meeting was very important that the meeting is an opportunity as all meetings are to get people together but what this meeting did was it got the allies during the korean war to

be in the same room and to talk about the issue in a way they hadn't before so nothing substantive that we can tell at this stage in her. as of next steps publicly but certainly to have all of these allies together is a good step it's been long overdue quite frankly for the american diplomats to have this kind of an arrangement china and russia were not invited and china called live in a meeting cold war thinking how do you respond to that i think that may be a bit over the top there is a lot of room for china in this process and the united states has been asking china to engage on north korea since longer much prior. president's tenure this is an opportunity for the allies from that period to get together china is always included will be brief they do have a critical role to play certainly not just in terms of engaging north korea but

also the u.n. security council they're going to have to approve any agreement if there if there ever is one so i am sure they'll be involved in north korea is going to attend the winter olympics in south korea high level so issues from multan south korea diplomatic discussions where we go with this. it's anyone's guess there's a lot of parlor game guessing right now happening in washington about why now did kim decide to engage south korea and could this potentially split the united states from south korea how does this all play out i'm from the perspective that any engagement can be good and gauge mean if it's managed properly so by having north korea and south korea talking that creates an atmosphere of a little more calm a little less hysteria and hopefully opens up a pathway to a legitimate dialogue over the nuclear program japan's foreign ministry called north korea is engaging with south korea a charm offensive you see that. well it's

a charm offensive one compared to two years of zero talking which is what has been happening and it's a charm offensive when compared to. rhetoric about nuclear budden it's so the speak being on the desks of the leaders that certainly yes but it's not much of a charm offensive really it's not as if the north koreans are suddenly allowing their people to have contact with the south korean people it's sending a delegation to an olympics games and they'll be very disconnected and separate from the population so it's a very modest step at sharm we shouldn't be a little encouraged by it. i think so from the perspective of at least there's a thaw i am skeptical of whether or not this means that north korea is changing their perspective but certainly this is an opportunity diplomatically to test where north korea wants to go once one is in the room and diplomacy one never knows where the discussions will and and so yes by having a link

a communications link established more robustly between the south and the north that is a good thing so hopefully we can see some progress grow from this i just wouldn't have the expectation that this means necessarily that there will be an agreement or some kind of real clear way forward joe thanks as always for joining us my pleasure thanks joe rogan and we thank you for joining us on this edition of politicking remember you can join the conversation on my facebook page or tweet me at kings things that don't use the politic hash tag and that's all for this my scary edition of politicking.

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the leafs this morning to. turkey demands the u.s. ends its support for syrian kurds amid a spot between the two countries over washington train border forces. but the latter. hundreds of prison guards go on strike over on slave work conditions a french jail sought to be a hotbed for islamic radicalization. and leaked e-mails raise concerns over how do you think cases were handled during the rio olympics in twenty sixteen. r.t. dot com has more on these and plenty of other stories up next here on r.t. international so if you go talk to finland's former prime minister about.