i am asked tiger this is the kaiser report in some of the north american bitcoin conference in miami the excitement is palpable electricity in the air startups are starting up. yes max it's a pretty wild ride here very fine it's getting bigger and bigger every time we go to a big bang conference as more and more people have them. and i do want to know one thing that we've kind of overlooked in the past week of coverage is the fact that the dow jones. went up a thousand points the fastest in history it had twenty five thousand points and then it hit twenty six thousand points the fastest move the fastest one thousand white moves in the history of u.s. stock markets as i think that's the best thousand points move since tropicana

president so i think we see some of that inflation perhaps you might call it hyperinflation that janet yellen and other central bankers were hoping for but you know you've got the wealth effect because you've got stock market by market property market trip the market all getting behind is due to all time highs trading trillions of dollars above all i walked into the entrance of the hotel here in miami and there's just replete with lamb bones everywhere lamppost rolls royces plus rotting you know the trickle down of different don't come to me the stock market the property market is having a boom time. this is a sort of town where you can drive a lamborghini into the hotel lobby it's pretty interesting so one of the biggest stock on the stock market of course is apple i think it was the first trillion dollar company right getting pretty close very close and so they they've had a good time obviously in the past year as a stop. markets have bloomed but one thing i want to look at is what has tax reform

tax reform has done to their bottom line and what sort of benefit it's going to bring perhaps to the u.s. economy this isn't this headline apple says it will pay thirty eight billion dollars in foreign cash taxes and create twenty thousand u.s. jobs apple said last week that it would make a one time payment of thirty eight billion dollars to repatriate some of its vast overseas cash holdings the company which has faced international criticism for its tax evasion policies also said it would spend thirty billion dollars in the u.s. over the next five years creating twenty thousand new jobs so this is rolling off of the tax reform we've seen a lot of these sort of announcements apple is also giving a two thousand five hundred dollars bonus to most of their employees in the united states we saw wal-mart announced

a thousand dollar bonuses southwest airlines american airlines so many corporations have been announced and big bonuses because of the tax cuts they've had a huge tax cut down to twenty one percent. of the likes of apple will go into it only ever paid one percent but we'll get into that event right yes so this is all about bringing those jobs back to america bringing the cash back to america chumps just finished his first year in office and this is some of the campaign promises that he made and he's making good on those promises it's really hard to criticize trial because he's doing stuff he said he would do this is obviously going to be a huge boon for jobs in the u.s. going to start manufacturing in the us and credible about being if you start seeing i phones and i have some other equipment actually being manufactured not giant in the nation but in the united states i don't know if you're going to do that or not but there are clearly bring a lot of jobs and are going to build a whole new apple campus and then i guess are shopping for a city now where to put that new apple campus of this will be a choice. dollar company should have a have

a big specific announcement of what these twenty thousand dollars will be could all be at apple stores for all the now selling more products. in terms of their tax so apparently they're paying a fifteen percent tax on repeat trade in profits it looks like they're going to replace a if you look at thirty eight billion that's pretty much fifteen percent of the two hundred forty six billion they have held overseas so it looks like they're bringing it all back by that those numbers the article goes on to say that in june trump told the wall street journal that apple's chief executive officer tim cook had promised to build three big big big plants in the us as part of a discussion about tax reform the company is the latest to announce a one off payment as a result of recent changes to u.s. tax law which allows companies to pay a levy a fifteen point five percent and overseas cash holdings that are repatriated to the u.s.

you know i remember the reagan years the trickle down economics that was introduced and there wasn't really a lot of trickle down but here this is actually trickling down in real time jump announced a tax cut and boom twenty thousand jobs from the biggest company in the world relocated to the u.s. are treated in the u.s. that's genuine job boom tied to a tax policy and again this guy was a novice coming into office a year ago i said you know what in the ball studio does all the professional politicians suck you know soup this guy can do so far looks good. you know one thing i want to say is that since the financial crisis and then president obama came in a lot of people with the occupy wall street stories were like you know big bankers got bailed out and then they were collecting all these big bonuses they are the ones that actually are getting hit hard because of the new tax reform because they had massive losses and the two thousand and eight two thousand and nine financial crisis and they were writing those. so some of these guys i think like citi group

just announced that twenty two billion dollars that they're going to have to pay on their profits this year because of this new tax reform is that they were counting out riding off all their big losses during their scams in the last. crisis so now they're going to be hit hard so he's actually hitting them hard unlike what we've seen in previous administrations yes it makes perfect sense you know the touch loss carryforwards are going to be you know ended so they've got a real genuine bottom line event happening to them and they're being penalized for making bad bets and lead to depression two thousand and eight and barack obama applied zero zero accountability after the two thousand and eight crisis about five just to shower democrat money instead o. play try to do better next time guys again. policy is actually inflicting a little pain to our belong to the banks so back to apple you know the panama paper is had showed that apple had set up

a complex web of offshore companies to basically pay less than one percent tax rate . regarding the article mentions that in twenty thirty in a senate committee accused apple of using a highly questionable web of offshore vehicles to avoid paying taxes on the u.s. senator john mccain said his constituents were quote mad as hell to learn that the world's biggest company was paying tax rates that were sometimes lower than one percent i've never seen any thing like this that's across the board all big industrial companies all being down companies just people their tax rates member general electric reported on this couple years ago in a seventy thousand page tax return and at the end of the process the internet with a tax credit they got money back from the government so any kind of tax reform like this that levels the playing field is going to be a boon to industry. and. long overdue i would imagine they'll be another tax reform

bill next year just simplified bring in a flat tax be four years old over and done with top will bring in a fifteen percent tax rate across the board which would be the best possible solution to the tax you know question in the us yeah so i mean i think obviously taxes have gone down in corporations we already have a low tax on capital gains so capital is very low tax across the world labor is still taxed very highly i saw somebody talking about this on twitter this morning about these tax rates and it is interesting to note that right now labor is so cheap tax interest rates capital is so low so there there should be some sort of mechanism whereby you know we should make leverage cheaper we don't need to make capital any cheaper there's already so much of it that's why stock markets keep on going up a thousand points and twelve days so we don't need any cheaper we'd like

a lower burden on copple at this point we need a bit of a lower burden on labor as labor you know that the top tax rate is still in that well into the thirty percent look for seven years we've been preaching to labor that think solutions offered by government are insufficient you must accumulate currency we started preaching this one point was three all market was less than fifty million it's now five hundred billion six hundred billion got a size eight hundred million the way to fight against government if you want to build capital is the we've been saying this for six years six nap years and we've been absolutely right and i meeting people here at the miami north american miami big point conference you can walk up to me and say thank you for a times reported twenty thirteen twenty seven twenty you've made me an industry you made me millions of dollars i'm fighting against the banks i'm fighting against governmental look. i do want to caution you know. it is quite.

prices are much higher on all these cryptocurrency is than they were back in twenty thirteen bitcoin was down in the hundreds. of phone as a government is slow on their feet to move in for wages and the way to fight back is via trip though of course you have to answer with your head up when you have your own sovereignty don't rely on the government to provide sovereignty for you they provide sovereignty for corporations not labor that's the message for seven years if you've been standing and waiting for better prices waiting for better prices you're going to feel the way to the rest of the life will never be a sovereign individual. you know you yesterday in the last episode you interviewed harry you. storm tokyo so there are other ways to enter the crypto markets by the way you don't have to do your savings take your cast and convert it to crypto and then. you know suffer the anxiety of the ups and downs of the crypto market

because it could be a very volatile for a while so with like the like system token there are loads of platforms now where you can start to earn some crypto that's where primarily all my early crypto was earned so it does i think make it a little bit less emotional i know for a fact that i feel more emotionally distraught over it when i convert. to crypto and then prices go down the stuff i earned my time exceeds my time my labor for that for the crypto less store and still get his way to earn also there's still mining opportunities some of the all kind you can still mine all kinds of home mining and you can do that all so many videos and so many resources and if you're not participating you krypto at this point because you want to be poor. are you well ok i mean there are different ways of thinking about it not just poor but like not wealthy poor but sort of sovereignty poor. and

a freedom for like you know we have to get a little bit outside of the whole you know crypto bro sort of notion of like we ought lamborghinis of that and there's a dinner saturday there's zero percent and it's great for corporations and it's great for those politicians that are benefiting from that it's also great for those wanting to get into the crypto space because the cost of capital has never been cheaper and the cost of being in the space is never going to get any cheaper but anyway that's if this first out from the north american make my conference here in miami say to the second half a lot more coming your way. he . says harlan kentucky. boys susie was very funny to.

a co money since she was almost no coal mines left. the jobs are gone all the ones asserted. that it was a lot of these people the survivors of disappearing before their eyes. i remember thinking when i was younger that if anything ever happened to the coal mines here that it would become a ghost town but i never thought in the million years i would see that and it's how it's happened. everybody i'm steven both test hollywood guy usual suspects a very proud american first of all i'm just george bush and r.v.'s to suggest this is my buddy max famous financial guru just a little bit different honest. or not you know when those up with all the drama happening in our country i'm shooting the brood have some fun. meet everyday

americans global warming and coakley start to bridge the gap this is the great american pill which. costs. welcome back to the kaiser report i'm max kaiser here at the north america because the conference in miami time now to turn to marco centaury marco welcome thank you very much well i don't we're not just for a number of years now you're a veteran in this space you're a lawyer yet would you believe in your lawyers that there's there's

a couple of us ok so now you've specialized in bitcoins and tokens and crypto for years you were the very first one a very first people that you're a veteran in this space and now we're entering a new period called initial coin offerings and it's always been a challenge in this space there's always been a regulatory question mark from the very very beginning and fall michael tell us a little bit about what the challenges are now for i.c.l. as you see it. you know now the regulator is as he said right this is what everybody's talking about when token sales before it's open so it was just because it was money services if things got really exotic it was like coin or ether and people were talking about a totally different area of the law and the money laundering k.y. see now people are talking about securities laws commodity derivatives lost the things that you know people who have been in financial services for years sort of second hand to the. second nature but her isn't technologists this is brand new

so the issues are am i selling a security if i make some if i slip up and make some kind of a statement or i'm not able to you know the entire half of this token sale you can securities from brand new questions that technologists really have to answer right now i started my career on wall street and it's a highly regulated environment and i know that at the beginning of the crypto space a big space the big question was is it a commodity is it a currency and no one ever figured that out definitively i think they regulators are kind of coming down and calling it more. more of a commodity that you see f.t.c. is looking at it more in those terms but now at the size you know space they clearly comes under the belly wake of the s.t.c. and so are these i c.e.o.'s of ramping up their legal talent and are they prepared for this or is it a mismatch and secondarily the the f.c.c. seems like they're a bit accommodating somewhat that they're letting some of the growth happen

organically is that what's your perception there as you see has been in this space longer than most people realize i remember back in two thousand and thirteen sitting down with us you see before there were token sales before the rice. just just talking through sony now with us you see talking through the basic issues of this is the watching this is how you can see what do you dxo is this is the difference between a private key and a network address they've been in this space for a long time and finally learning which is what regulators ought to do they haven't they haven't demolished the industry the chairman has actually come out and said look some of these things are just not securities they're things we're not going to regulate made it very clear that if therion for example with the r.c. twenty tokens as a real use case that of the network on which a lot of these token cells don't talk how we test you know how we test what is it lies in part barco it's the test for what tokens are securities that also happens

to be the test for what parts of orange groves are securities so it's really odd fit people say oh it's really a square peg in a round hole or maybe it's a testament to sound principles based regulation but the reality is this is a contest with something new it's going to test in the seventy's when someone tried to sell plots of land in orange grove or really not the plots themselves just the profit from the box as you see so that's a security how he said no no no or intro's as he she won that argument and they came up with a test of the supreme court headsets for how it was investment of money and a confidence or a promise but the expectation. primarily from the efforts of others to take the test and you would talk and they're all different right and there seem to be more variations and then allows in the how we test in other words there's so many hybrids if you will in the space and on the legal front is that part of what you're doing is to try to sort through a lot of the minutia and the various to come up like you know how does this fall and then absolutely it's a it's

a facts and circumstances based test which is sort of a legal way of saying it's a smell test although when i see it but at least you know it gives flexibility to regulators you need flexibility in the world of changing facts. and accommodates all of the weird stuff you see happening like well i won't name any particular sales but there's just this great variety where in the midst of this like came green and blue blossoming of all these different token models models for raising money bubbles for moving money around bottles for representing assets that are not money as tokens so that it can be treated as freely as you can treat a big one right and where do you see in all this because you know that's to the granddaddy of it all and it's got the biggest market cap still and on the regulatory front there different countries are taking different approaches some countries are trying to position themselves as the quote unquote switch a little bit coin they want to be a pro because they want to try to bring that business in-house some countries are afraid of it some countries like venezuela are trying to adopt

a block change technology bring in their own crypto coin that the petro to circumvent sanctions on the sovereign front market the big picture of the sovereign front what do you see trends there so look the people have talked a long time about how to coin its own regulated coin is not under regulated the protocol is under regulated just like email is not regulated but uses of bitcoin uses theory and uses of crypto in general are regulated based on how they're used so at least here in the united states and what i expect to see over the next year or two three four years is the export of those. diligence around the world like the u.s. is frankly very good at doing developing sound principles based regulations and let's face it sometimes not sound but by and large no reasonable regulations and joining the joining g twenty groups joining the fat of the financial action task force making sure that those laws become harmonized so that if you're doing business in the u.s. can pretty much do business in the e.u. or it soon to be the u.k.

or some asian countries in pretty much the same way i say you fly in the high falutin circles of this industry you know you're a very well respected legal talent people come to you marco when you see guys like jamie diamond j.p. morgan who scoffing if they point now he's done a bunch i was wrong i regret having said all the negative statements where the banks today in the space today consider the challenge are they trying to adapt as they can feed still where are they now the banks couldn't care less i'm telling you the banks could not care less and i confess in two thousand and twelve and twenty thirteen there were there were some undercurrents some sort of social community undercurrents about how the banks were going to react they were going to try to quash bitcoin they were going to try to get rid of it and make sure that it could threaten them it turns out that banks really were deliberately by because they don't feel threatened and i think realistically they aren't actually threatened so when jamie diamond so look i think big point is a fraud. and then changed his mind later i applaud that i think you know somebody

should change their mind based on new information they should change their opinions based on human commissions but when he did say that coin is a fraud i was quoted in the same f.t. article saying look that is. conjecture the big point is used for money laundering it's been long disproven it is it's it's just not a meme that has really aged well. can be used for money laundering yes big point is used for money but every single government that has studied it has found the use of crypto for illegal activities to be read. it's awfully low right there that they have a grasp on plus that they study you know use my laundry what is used and they have various you have turned and they have various other commodities and took down his ways and all we already have prepaid cards credit cards whole laundry list of things h.m.t. in in the u.k. the u.k. treasury just released another study that confirmed that study last year that

crypto still ranks the lowest it is an emerging threat as as regulators like to say yes it's something to be on people's radar but look i mean this is this demonstrably this is this is not a criminal. it's only it's a nonstarter and that front terms of percent now when i was speaking earlier about bitcoin is a commodity is a currency i saw your eye brows furrow as if to think i read your mind and you're like wow this guy's off base here somehow let me ask you that debate about how does it fall in the category of if it is like someone called a duck billed platypus you know right it's the memo but rather fouled our nor. you know what how do you see that so here's your chance articulate how you see it in the pantheon of assets and digital assets i am so. i'm so glad that i don't have to. because because bitcoin is not a commodity crypto is not

a commodity it's not a currency it's not property it's a protocol it is a language the computers use to talk to each other what they do with that language the output cation of the protocol that is regulated based on application think goodness for that because had it gone another way we would have had technology specific regulations like all cars must have at least four cylinders in order to be safe and sound on the road well we would have any tesla's of if if if that was a lie what so thankfully we don't have much technology specific regulation of the u.s. we. application based privilege so when crypto is used to represent an investment contract it's a security when it's used to represent a limited partnership interest to security when it's used to represent you know an index of index of other currencies for example like a stable coin it's probably come out of a derivative depends on how you use it that's how it's regulated me us today what about this argument some put forward that crypto should be protected under free

speech because it's software software is speech and therefore it cannot be outlawed because you cannot outlaw free speech your thoughts i i love the argument i will shout it from the rooftops and tell him plume the face to mix metaphors nimesh the metaphor i want to put real estate anyone around to born to you know who are in charge of billions of it but look realistically if it is speech it's probably commercial speech and commercial speech is has a much lower bar for regulations to pass so even if it is free speech course we have limits on that and i put on a magic prognostication that crystal ball next year at this time next two or three years one of the big trends that maybe are not on people's radar that you see developing i think everyone's talking about the f.c.c. and they are a powerful agency and they carry a lot of weight and they're very important but they may be beat to this they may be beat to market so to speak by the private litigations there's

a lot of private lawsuits out there where the first question a court is going to have to determine are these things secure they've got to figure out which a lot of what securities laws are common last. and just common law fraud out so there is a distinction as i see might not be the first person to come out and give this clarity it might happen in the in the world of the private law says there's a couple of class action suits out there there are well known examples and so you're saying there that's where the law will be made i'm saying yet lee may have a decision by a court before we have this sort of crystal clear guy. by assisi or a safe harbor by assisi the courts might speak first do you see an example coming up at all that might spill over into a gray area because you have clients and we don't you can't you know need to speak in a neutral way i guess is a good phrase for that where they are shredding the line in a way that is got it more stolen but it's always been this way markets on the day

want it's always been always stepping over the line it's always been that way is that kind of consistent or less six or seven years or are we entered a different period where maybe it's slightly different some way what are your thoughts i don't think there are any new arrows what it when it comes to pushing the envelope i think entrepreneurs will continue to push the envelope and sometimes that will be a very very closely tailored and below but fernandez so that's what we're seeing today marcos and juric i mentioned them in your firm yeah by all cooley well that look cool business card it's all black white and red this classic anyway thank you come on the times report thanks for not going to do it for this edition of the kaiser report was me back to kaiser stacy i would want to thank our guest marco centaury of coolie if you want to catch us on twitter it's kaiser report it's like somebody.

that was pretty hurt with the war but you know. if we will the last. words he was mostly we don't and we will soon will put you know and stuff and we push it out so. you can go on the scouts. who could believe you know. you should read your book. you will know the bench. look the secret of the imus show do you can you get other cool news little something you. did to miss told. the president. obama was selling you on the idea that dropping bombs brings police to the chicken

hawks forcing you to fight the battle is going. to do socks for the tell you that will be gossip and tabloid bias fell for the most important news today. off of advertising telling you on the cool enough to buy their product. all the hawks that we along with all the walking. a little bit of relief there is. nothing beats. a load. of. load.

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