the kinds of things that unfortunately still linger on and you wrote the whole book to address some of those negative stereotypes and i think you have a very unusual take for a western or former western diplomat. when it comes to russia because. i think there's a lot of understanding there's also a lot of compassion in your book and i really appreciate that but i will want to ask you whether you ever felt that you are giving this country an easy pass i don't think i think that the majority of the content of my book deals with the sometimes very disagreeable parts of russia's history i've got a chapter on the leg museum i've got a chapter on the jewish museum of tolerance and i talk very frankly in those two chapters of some of the black spots in russia's history. and i think what i felt as

a former professional diplomat for thirty years and i was an ambassador to poland and. the mother asked postings. i felt i had a certain responsibility to my own society to say look we are being fed. bad fantasies about russia the real russia is not what we're being told about. i want to go and i want to see what it's like and my process of disenchantment from the western propaganda machine against russia it really began pretty much in interest and fourteen with the events in ukraine and the way in which they were being reported now i hope we will go into the ukrainian events a little bit later on into the program but. you mentioned the this negative image of russia and russia is definitely not an easy country it's a very complex society it's sometimes a very contorted country and i think we the russians are the first to you know an

experience that and i think that actually goes to the very notion of russian patriotism and loving russia is it's a bit like caring for the disabled loved one you know the disability you hate them but you love the person all the more because of that and that is actually i think the most moving part of your book for me that you accept disability rather than the typical western scolding that russia is not good enough but what i find even more troubling is that that's called thing that irritated russians a lot if you years back now seems acceptable because it essentially dick rest into the open bigotry why do you think this lack of compassion not even the lack of basic decency towards this country has become so does your mental conditioning and mutual propagandizing to the point where people come to believe each other if they keep telling each other that's good you know if you if you repeat large enough and

enough they become the truth and when you've got people in time media communities who constantly. for instance each other with attitudes and opinions that really have no basis in fact unfortunately fulfill turn to will to fulfill to reality takes hold and i found when i decided to come to russia i was confronted by my friends and my colleagues in canberra which is the government center of australia with all sorts of illusions once you get outside moscow people will be stuffing better not get sick in moscow you in russia you won't be looked after properly all rubbish but the point is these have become general beliefs and i felt as a former ambassador for whatever authority i still had and whatever credibility i still had. i want to put it at the service of of writing a book that would encourage a better understanding of russia i wonder. whether this issue of portraying

russia always in a very negative light is also connected to the west own south perception because in your book you're afraid. liberal interventionist as a driving force behind many of the west or america's adventures and we think it's impossible not to agree that many of those adventures created more harm than good and yet they also produced a very little in the way of south reflection to what extent this insistence on portraying russia as redeeming really ugly is predicted on the need of the west to see the south as invariably good despite all its recent policy blunders yes i think you're absolutely right. it's very important for the west and i late however you define that military diplomatic political media that. to believe in their own objectivity they have to believe in it but it's not just

objectivity it's some sort of internal goodness the the other side being all over. in the wrong well yes although i'm not sure that i very many people would talk about being good and evil i mean that's that's a moral concept in the west that it's become a many many of the speeches are forced implications you constantly hear these theme of moral superiority drawing you know making i think this is a recurring theme in many of the present obama statements and in many of the statements by british politicians that they could be no moral equivalency between for example russia and the west where in fact why would you even think about equating anyone morally everybody makes mistakes everybody has his own or her own difficulties why would you need to compare anyone on the moral basis yes well i find that really very strange and limited thinking on their part because to me russia is one of the most morally conscious countries in the world i mean the

country that produced. it's all about morality it's all about what is good what is evil this is something that preoccupies russians in a very noble very noble sort of way on the other hand i see the west my own country australia which is the small satellite of america not so much as a country that is sort of moral sense of itself but a country that believes in its own pragmatism we like to pretend that we are totally realistic when we're not we become prisoners were an illusion and now in your book here i think it very eloquently explain that russians have this deeply ingrained fear of war which comes back to you our losses in world war two and perhaps even before that and i think you can easily make a case that russians sometimes overplay those fears those insecurities or security concerns but i wonder why do you think people in the west have lost that fear

because they seem to bitch treating all those in interventions especially in foreign lands very. casually without any concern for the people there and for intel own. well being because you mentioned the issue of pride much is but what is still pretty much about going into libya or syria well i think that's a very good question because to my mind war and entertainment have become blurred in our culture and we've children grow up playing playing war games on their computers war has somehow been domesticated as entertainment. the major hollywood film industry. films about war. remember the way george bush when he wanted to declare victory. over saddam hussein's iraq he went to an aircraft carrier and put on a boat much eckert and stood there like tom cruise but look at the way he package

that i mean he was basically making a little. and so i think russians on the other hand war is a dreadful reality for them this this this wonderful new tradition of the much of the poke to russians this because nothing funny about it is serious and i'm sure that russia will be there to extend your question little bit i'm sure that russia will be the last country in the world to abandon its nuclear deterrent i think russia will be the last to give up nuclear weapons because russia regards nuclear weapons as the bow walk against invasion or war by a superior coalition of speaking about this affair superior outside coalition force as those tensions that we've been discussing came to had in ukraine in two thousand and fourteen and in your book here try to explain both russian and western thinking in great detail and there is this popular view in moscow that as painful as the ukrainian rupture was and it certainly was and is for russia russia is paying it

a great cost for the kind of decisions that made in the ukrainian conflict there is also believed that the rapture. how to prevent a much bigger conflict between russia and they said that if russia didn't act. moment back in two thousand and fourteen that the nature would continue pushing across its border and there would be no other way to escape that direct confrontation how much do you crave at that oh very much so i mean there was a sort of a rehearsal for crimea some years beforehand and in georgia of course went under a lot of american encouragement of the saakashvili government but very provocatively towards russia in a couple of ethnic groups parts of georgia and iran and i think i forget the name of that number when the current dutch and russia drew a line that russia moved in with support for the local local governments local

ethnic groups and drew a line that was a dress rehearsal if you like. ukraine became the real thing because for many years before the the overthrow of the in the case which government for many years before two thousand and fourteen there was all kinds of encouragement being given to nationalistic elements in the crowd and the russian element by the united states and by certain european countries do you think they actually understood the seriousness of encouraging those kind of forces and the kind of reaction that they may provoke in russia where they understood and simply didn't care i think the latter i think they didn't care i think it was you know whatever we can do to encourage the build up of anti russian opinion in ukraine is worth doing whatever the risks because ukraine so important strategically so important economically and if we can prise it away from the russian world to the nato world it would be worth

spilling some china breaking some china and spilling the sort of on the way so i think they underestimated the seriousness of the nazi elements new crown. and russia had to draw a line somewhere in ukraine as if you get really in georgia what if. they've helped a very small part of ukraine i mean. it's been done it pretty small amount of territory what five percent of ukraine they they've helped crimea carry out an act of free self-determination and. they did it under enormous provocation if they hadn't been in the mud. they would not have been the warden but at least mr kim and i could argue that the west did similar things in other countries but as western officials would reply to that there is no moral equivalency anyway we have to take a short break now but we'll be back in just a few moments stay tuned. for

the best out of. the concert was preparing to perform i actually prepared myself to die. sorry trust me. as most of. you. in the home. turned her. scanty it was. really good so it.

was that he could with us to. yes get me she. said to me she. was a. financial guy. i caught up with you. on the flight. that's the last time i heard from the future. in america a college degree requires a great deal. of debt. to study so hard it requires. going through humiliation to enter society. sometimes quite literally.

want other true colors of universities in the u.s. . welcome back to worlds apart with tony cabin a former diplomat in russia and the author of a book called return to moscow. mr cameron what. we started discussing your crane before the break the break and there was definitely a genuine aliment in that uprising people wanted change positive change they wanted to they on to to corruption the they wanted a more fair more representative a more transparent government and all of those. calls you can hear in russia these days changes also have pretty popular world in this country but i

think russia's relationship with changes is interesting because as part of the loop and the former prime minister of the imperial russia once said everything changes in russian ten years and nothing in two hundred i wonder what are some of those changes the norm changes that struck you when you came back to this country after a very long break. well obviously we're talking about since the cold war years when i worked here forty six years ago it's a very different country now totally different in terms of material living standards in terms of the the the madness of the people the old rudeness and and roughness that i remember about russia wrist maybe it was a full picture even then but i certainly felt it and i don't feel it or told i feel russians were very well managed people and now what are the changes i think there's a much greater self-confidence in russia today. and i think it's growing because i think russia's learnt in the last few years particularly since you cry

and since that experience since syria. russia that. the west when it criticizes russia is not big but they haven't. tried to undermine russian self-esteem and i think russia has learned that yes we have our own problems we have our own disputes we have to deal with for example gender equality we have to deal with the way we treat option the. old the. particularly the way we treat homosexuals because i think for homosexuals there are still very biggest news about being russian and it shouldn't be that way but it's not my place and it's not the west good place to lecture russia about these things well i know you have very reluctant to criticize russia openly but you just mentioned this attitude towards the community and if you actually look at the polls you will see that russians by and large. homophobic they for example if you ask people do you mind

homosexual couple living in the apartment next door to you they would usually say the majority would say no i don't care and yet in the political. environment these days you hear a lot about the traditional values the patriarchy and so on and so forth where in fact i would argue they have realistically no place in the russian society this is a society that is. empowered by strong women that we have lots of single mother families you know women taking care of the entire families women tend to be i think in other countries too more tolerant towards people who are different so i wonder if you perhaps would go as far as to say that the russian elites are exploiting exploiting some of the things and perhaps fostering some of the negative attitudes dead actually do not have that deep of a root in the russian culture not enough about russia to your question but i'm very

interested in what you say i can only say that just recently in australia we've had an extremely controversial. new law passed in december which we call the marriage equality law which for the first time allowed a sexual couples to marry it was very difficult to get that passed because our political elites were much more conservative than the population it was clear that the population wanted it that certain powerful politicians in the power limit and did their very best to to him paid it what i did find if i may extend the question a little is i'm partly of jewish origin i'm half irish catholic and half being a jewish by descent. i'd expect the degree that the senators in russia. didn't encounter it and i was enormously impressed with the jewish museum. and its presentation of the jewish contribution to russian history and culture

right through the years since russia conquered potent in the jewish population of poland and below russia became russian citizens that whole story was fascinating i left that museum with a spirit of uplift because my folks show that russia and its row getting on the path of a decent mutually respectful relation. mischler respectful relationship between russia and israel is not a problem i think they are now a little bit concerned that the personal relationship between putin and benjamin netanyahu is endangering the middle east peace process because everybody's so accommodating towards israel but rather than going into international affairs i want to ask you a specifically about logic and putin has been in power of on and off for eighteen years and you just recently speaking at one of the conferences here in russia you said that you wish and his foreign minister sergey lavrov along political careers

the world needs now wisdom and moderation even if that's your genuine failing donte think you know the long stay in power in may in danger of russia in the long run because. the power transition is inevitable one day we all believe this world and. with having one leader even their very popular leader in power for so long don't you think that it will make russia vulnerable more vulnerable when time comes to hand over the keys to the kremlin to somebody else i see what you're getting at and i think you're worried about some sort of personality cult developing around putin especially in the western press by the way not so much in russia but i think also in the western press because much of the western coverage about russia is about putin that's right we we personalize everything and when i gave a lecture in perth i don't know whether it's the you know my website i've got that lecture and i've got the photographs that i put up during the lecture one of them

in particular is a pair of photographs the there's an ordinary tasks or something new this picture of putin's sitting in this disc of his head and shoulders and the next picture is the famous cover of the economist which portrayed putin as a devil it's a photo shopped image of exactly that same picture so we we demonize putin and mr cameron i am sorry for indigestion i think it's safe to say but that both of us have a. fairly neutral if not positive attitude towards putin of what he has done for this country but. that none of us standing my question still stands don't you think that. you know he too has to think about what russia you will be after he's gone absolutely and i think and i talk about this in my book in the chapter about suicide oh i think he's trying to leave. a positive legacy of ideas the

idea of the russian world risking mirah the idea of. civil is that he is actually trying to leave a legacy of a multicultural russia a russia of many of the cities not just of orthodox russia. certainly proper respect for the ducks he has in england this respect for the anglican church but not not as the periodic table of the ducks for up the religions and i think he's trying to leave a legacy of multiculturalism and i talk about that quite a lot. he's trying to leave you know as sort out this question. what is the russian model and if you're not if you know off the books what is the road enough to you and he's trying to help broaden that concept we have to do this in australia too because when i was young australia was basically what i think was sex and now we're i think we're well on the way to being a genuinely multicultural country and in that respect i think russia and australia

have a lot in common already well there are as you point out in your book many commonalities between russia and australia being the outsiders being territorially expansive countries perhaps sometimes struggling to defined who they are but i want to bring you back to the question of lot of importance and sergey lavrov a long political career is because there is now a rumor in moscow that sergei lavrov for example the foreign minister asked for his retirement several times because as much as he i soon lost his job it is quite tiring there was also speculation that put in wasn't planning on coming back to power or running for presidency again in two thousand and twelve but the events in libya and the murder of moammar gadhafi the disintegration of libya afterwards made him change his mind i wonder to what extent and western policies are responsible for keeping those perhaps not fully appreciated individuals in power for so long

well those two room as you mentioned. may be a conspiracy theorist but i suspect the origins of some of those rumors think this is all part of trying to make russia feel weak about. the information war it's ruthless and ongoing. against russian stability but let me come back. put in a lover of what what makes them special i remember even when i was forty seven years ago and certainly in my subsequent twenty five years as a diplomat the smartest people in russian embassies were almost the kind of people now it's no accident that a young ambitious intelligent man like putin growing up in leningrad in fairly tough circumstances looking at his career opportunities just will join the k.g.b. there's nothing sinister about this it was the most k.g.b. officers that people see if that's what. it was where ambitious people would would

gravitate and so it's a mark of it's an ability that he was promoted quickly in the k.g.b. and finished up in east germany at the time of it which i just left it off for a friend of mine was a fellow diplomat of lover of the united nations. thirty five forty years ago they worked together in a committee he said was super bright and you know super organized just the professional diplomat you can see that no leverage gives a media conference without notes and he just talks about every use you want of us and gets it right gets the language exactly right we had running out of time here and i want to ask why isn't one more question there is a presumption in the west that if putin of were not in the kremlin that russian policy somehow would have been different that russia wouldn't be such a big star and in the side of the west and i get it from your book. you really chide she showed that russia's decisions recent decisions they comply with certain

historical logic that there is certain continuity to decision making in russia if it wasn't put in let's say five alexina vallone comes to power at this year and next year do you think the west should expect a dramatically different foreign policy line from russia i don't think there's any chance of novell becoming to anybody else i mean any other lady if rigs. the leader of the communist party kind of power or if. the daughter of a totally subject came to power i don't think there'd be huge differences because as you've said there is a professionalism in the competence about the russian administrative class which which would continue well mr cameron we have to leave it there thank you very much for your time and to our viewers please keep the conversation going on our social media pages and i hope to see you again same place same time here on of all the part.

all to see we have a great team but we need to strengthen before the free world cold and your backs have been a legend to keep it so it's at the back. in one thousand nine hundred two that must qualify for the european championships at the very last moment no one believed in the last but we won and i'm hoping to bring some of that waiting spirit to the r.c.c. . recently i've had a lot of practice so i can guarantee you that peter schmeichel will be on the best fall since my last will call on that story as well as three. thousand old jokes i was always hated.

so i know the left left left more left ok stuff that's really good that despite its time going into history the soviet union you know has dominated international sport however this was not about the use of those champions from the. right on the children. born will bear with the window offered me just your good news your brother described as what would you feel like there's was the worst of it is up to you what you were building the first some of you to limp a team with nine hundred fifty two minutes and did seeds of life as concentration camp prisoners run from slime soldiers put your good baby in the earth it's good to hear what you're up sure you got you a much needed

a new ship who can give me because you're worthless but you're in for the month old . boy with a bit of a corridor with you if you think video we're going to. notions your virtual for through personal. enthusiasm overwhelm you know when you're at the actual more simply repeating your work for workers we are in the world. i.

think it's. in the stories that shaped the week the twenty eighteen winter games kick off in south korea but dozens of russian athletes have hopes dashed just i was before the opening ceremony as their appeals against a doping related ban are rejected. as strikes by the u.s. led coalition hit syrian pro-government forces reportedly killing nearly one hundred people the pentagon claims it was carried out to defend an american backed group. and republican lawmakers in the us threatened to cut funding to a global cancer the search program after it linked america's most widely used weed killer made by monsanto to cancer. each.