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hello and welcome to cross talk where all things are considered i'm peter lavelle the games have begun the younger sister of north korea's ruler kim jong un has captured the attention of the media while u.s. vice president mike pence was mocked as a dud even undiplomatic the two koreas are engaging each other this makes the washington foreign policy swamp hume. cross talking the koreas i'm joined by my guest brian becker in washington he's the director of the answer coalition as well as host of loud and clear a daily new show on radio sputnik and in columbus we have gregory illich he is a korea policy institute associate or

a german cross-like rules and i think that means you can jump in anytime you want i always appreciate brian let me get me go to you here i'm sure you saw some of the mainstream corporate is coverage of the opening of the games and the what appears to be some kind of approach between the two koreas but i thought a lot of that coverage has really missed the point in the what's really important here is not if the two koreas can actually engage each other because well they are but how much is the united states willing to go along with this engagement here because the united states has an awful lot at stake with its presence in south korea and its own not only about north korea's nuclear program go ahead brian. i believe that we're at a pivotal moment because the attempt by the south korean government the moon giant government came about as a consequence of very popular uprising that over. or through to mentally and led to the impeachment of the last conservative government poc and he. wants to have a rapprochement

a lessening of tensions and possibly the beginning of real reconciliation on the korean peninsula between north and south korea this happened as happened in the past that happened certainly in the year two thousand madeline albright was dispatched by bill clinton to pyongyang canned john went and met with kim jong il who is kim jong un's father then head of north korea but when there was taking place at that time it was with washington's blessing and as a consequence we see right now and this is why i consider this to be a pivotal moment it's a test of whether or not the south korean government which is clearly looking over its shoulder to see how much resistance it's getting from washington will be able to finally take a step to emerge as a truly sovereign entity and able to carry out with in korean politics and on the korean peninsula its own policy. it's a shame you certainly don't see north korea looking over its shoulder to see

whether russia or china approves of its moves but here you have south korea with tens of thousands of american troops still in south korea and they they arrived in september one thousand nine hundred five they're still there. north korea doesn't have foreign troops on its soil so that is the big test will south korea be able to resist the pressure from washington it's the republicans it's the democrats it's the military industrial complex it's the cia none of that none of those institutional power centers in washington want there to be real rah approach month taking place in korea by koreans without the supervision of the americans gregory would weigh in on that because you know what what leeway does south korea have to make any kind of reproach with the north the if there is a mutual engagement in and the engagement that is real ok i mean i think western viewers. tend to forget is that these are the two countries that could suffer the most if there is a complex here they have a real vested interest to start sitting down and deescalating what is been

happening over the last few months here so what is the leeway the south koreans have gregory in columbus police you know of course we don't know what kind of discussions were going on behind the scenes between trump and moon i imagine there's an enormous amount of pressure being applied on wednesday and however you look if you look back to former president to normal he who was the south korean president during the time of george w. bush he also was facing enormous pressure from the united states yet he went ahead and went to pyongyang and met kim jong il and he signed a series of economic agreements so he was much more forthright. warming relations with north korea than we have been who seems rather too cautious to me so i don't know if that's the nature of who the third threats that are going on behind the things one can only speculate but it is in the interests of the korean people both north and south that moves to act now and take the lead improving relations

between the two koreas and take accepting the open hand from the north koreans regardless of what washington says it's the korean people who would pay the price if trump unleashes a war as the north korean people are currently paying the price of economic. destruction and caused by truly to coney and sanctions i think it's time for thought korea to take the lead you know brian you hear in the in western media is that. north korea is trying to be a wedge between the breakaway the united states and in south korea but it's actually the united states is the wedge between north korea and south korea go ahead it's just amazing i mean korea has been a unitary entity with a with a common culture for so long for thousands of years in fact and here. because north south koreans want to talk to north koreans and vice versa that's a wedge for america which is thousands of miles away it shows the arrogance and

hubris and i would say the racism the architectural racism of the of the whole paradigm whereby south korea does not have the right to carry out its own independent negotiations you are right peter the wedge in korea is the united states korea was divided at the thirty eighth parallel because a couple of americans who didn't know anything about korea drew a line and they showed it to their soviet counterparts and the two sides agreed that there would be two zones of control in the korean peninsula and then five years later when soviet troops and american troops had temporarily for the soviets permanently left the korean peninsula there was a war and the war began in june one thousand nine hundred fifty it was the unsettled issue of the post-war configuration north korea had considered itself to be an independent and the japanese colonial fighting force and the south korean government was created by the americans and it was just the lackeys of the south of the japanese who were put into place and they ruled by virtue of

a military dictatorship now we have a situation where the united states does not want to give up its control over south korea because south korea one is an important military base for the united states and creates part of a network of bases along with the eleven american bases in japan is part of the ongoing asia pivot so-called that obama announced but really has been going on for a lot longer since before then so the united states is a fearful that south korea could become independent that's the real issue what does north korea want north korea wants the security guarantee they want it and the u.s. south korean military exercises that simulate the destruction of their country that take place twice a year there's a possibility for a negotiated outcome here there's one obstacle the real obstacle to a negotiated outcome of the. korean peninsula crisis isn't washington d.c. it's not pyongyang or and so. you know part of the security architecture of

south korea is that if there is some kind of conflict a major conflict the entire control of the korean military is under an american four star general i mean as an expert on korea i mean how does that sit with the korean population when they know that you know it's going to be the united states ultimately it's going to control that determine their security future and then you have folks reaching out its hand we don't know if it's real we don't know if it's genuine we don't know if this is just a ploy i mean it's a small step optics or something but i mean how does south korea feel about that i mean maybe at one time they needed that kind of security guarantee but it's well it's a very powerful rich country. how does that play into their thinking about dealing with north korea go ahead gregory. as you mentioned there is the agreement that in war time the u.s. military would take command of south korea and forthwith and i'm sure about was supposed to have been changed multiple times in the past and so the thought korea

would have control over its fourth of the war time but each time the deadline came the u.s. or conservative thought korean president postponed as it keeps getting pushed farther and farther into the future and unfortunate we're still stuck in the situation i think right now is probably making south korean people quite nervous when you have very direct with trumpeting ministration who think through. rather a blip if to the harm caused by launching strikes the north korea so i think that many people in south korea are quite nervous but i think the u.s. military is not in the habit of respecting the wishes of the south korean people or even the full korean military look at how the u.s. imposed the fab battery on south korea without. prior approval or even has and this . the knowledge came with a surprise for us with them paul we think if the battery were look at how the us refute the a the in. cleaning up environmental destruct before trucks from the military

because it's close. i don't think through south korean people are happy being vulnerable or whatever but your throw perry commands you know what i mean that would be go back to running these things into missile defense i mean it just makes south korea target you know that they do us says it's there to protect their interests but actually it's not the us that is targeted the actually this missile system is targeted against china and again korea is right smack in the middle of all this go ahead brian indeed i mean it's sad stance for the terminal high altitude area defenses meaning it provides an anti missile defense so called for for missiles that are at high altitude if there was a war between north and south korea north korea wouldn't be sending up high altitude missiles to hit some so which is thirty miles from the d.m.z. i mean on its face it's absurd and ridiculous clearly if that is against is

designed to threaten china and to threaten russia to achieve what the americans hope to be a first strike capability exercising military supremacy in the future by ringing china and russia with these kind of missile defense programs that make a first strike. first rate assault possible here's another thing and i think greg is right and it's very important that the pentagon rushed to deploy a fad before during the transition between pocky and he and moon j.n. because they thought and would be a liberal and because the liberals in the opposition inside of south korea didn't want it so they just ran down the throat of the people of south korea i mean clearly ok american guy and i think this is an important hang on to hold on to that point we're going to go to a show. break in after that short break we'll continue our discussion on the koreas stay with us. and.

join me every thursday on the alex salmond show and i'll be speaking to guest on the world of politics sports business i'm show business i'll see you then. here's what people have been saying about redacted in the us a full on author of the only show i go out of my way to launch you know what it is that really packs a punch. yampa is the john oliver of party americans do the same we are apparently better than the blue. sea people you've never heard of love back to the night not the president of the world bank hey because we're going to. send us an e-mail. list and is getting international recognition with the help of israel at least in

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welcome back to crossfire all things considered i'm peter bell toronto we're discussing the koreas. ok and now i'd like to bring in our another guest in cambridge he's an assistant professor at breaux college city university of new york as well as a specialist on korea and the asia and asian affairs i welcome professor to the program sorry it was a little bit late ok i'd like to ask you a very kind of general question here we have after this public ceremony that we had with the north korean delegation meeting with the south the opening up the game so

it was very optically rich we can put it that way but after we had that optically rich experience we have very conflicting messages coming out of washington from the secretary of state taylor saying mad as we have vice president pence saying you know he was very brusque i'm sure he was that was. a message that was sent intentionally and then we have been. he said maybe we could talk some kind under certain conditions we all know what those conditions are and then we have secretary of state tillerson basically saying no i mean what is washington saying look at a message is it sending to the careers if any right now go ahead all right now i think it's a really confusing mess and as you know well you know. white house state department and all of those key decision makers repeatedly highlighted that everything is on the table but everything on the table it seems to have been or they want to emphasize a military option or even regime change on the one hand but at the same time they

repeatedly highlighted that united state is ready to talk so still u.s. government position in dealing with north korean crisis is no confusing and mixed masses in terms of dealing with kim's i'm going kind of you know so-called you know madman prison trumper trying to deal with you know madman in terms of more mad men kind of you know creating uncertainty. but one of the critical problem of the u.s. government is moral lives and international relations of course current regime is a very horrible and condition there is really horrible and disastrous but if we moralize you know russia relations and like you know absolutely right and absolutely wrong so it's kind of approach would be not good in terms of dealing with a crisis situation. if i go back to gregory in columbus i mean the trumpet ministration

is said that it will apply maximum pressure on north korea but also. i mean i don't see any of the engagement when someone doesn't gauge the south koreans they get snubbed for it. actually did you just think washington was caught off food on all of this i mean because we have again we have these conflicting reactions coming out of washington go ahead greg i actually don't think there are key. looked at the reactions coming out of washington so if you read very carefully the washington post article in which penned fourth quarter down there in return flight from what do you actually fed was with that being nuclearization have to be and then there's so because the take on this will be nuclear if they think the u.s. is open to talks preliminary talks during which the course of us lay out of and the actual negotiations great great no greater than the reach agreement at one moment all right but go ahead go ahead go ahead just one more to. the precondition for

negotiations is for north korea to suspend fully do nuclear rights other words give the united states what it wants private talks can talk and you can begin ok well that's just great bryan i mean the north koreans saw what happened to libya they saw what happened in iraq and why in the in a lot of people have speculated that's why they have gone down the nucular road ok i mean why in the world would the north koreans give up this program and expose themselves when they're being threatened with a bloody nose you know seven ways to sunday it's absurd what's coming out of washington now that if they haven't thought it through as usual go ahead brian your question answers itself in fact and north korea won't give up its nuclear program and the united states knows the u.s. won't korea won't give up its nuclear program. and maximum pressure just for our audience to understand what this these these euphemistic terms mean the united states is trying to create famine in north korea when you deprive people of trade

in deprive them of food and deprive them of medicine you're trying to create famine to weaken the government and that's what the u.s. did to iraq before invading iraq sanctions were in place for thirteen years according to the un's own statistics a million iraqis died because of that and then the us invaded so sanctions and war go hand in hand sanctions an open war. we have a situation where north korea not only learned the lesson of iraq they gave up its weapons of mass destruction or libya and then the countries were invaded in the leaders were executed it also is fully aware of what happened to east germany it does not want to be swallowed up by a more internationally connected second half of the country so the north korean government is acutely aware of the imperative need for its own security and that's all it really seeks here is a security guarantee you i wanted to mention one thing peter real quick. lindsey

graham represents a certain sector of american public political thinking where he said you know let's get the war over with yeah yeah you know plays golf with donald trump oh yeah let's get the war over with because all the undying will be over there that it goes back to your earlier question there's kind of a gratuitous you know in moral and ethical position of american policy makers let's have a war because only koreans or japanese or people from the from the asia pacific will die that's a minority sentiment right now but i think that's a sentiment that's playing well trying to convince the trusted ministration to reverse course here when they go down that road and that's why they want to have a parade afterwards ok let me go back to the professor in cambridge doesn't it doesn't the u.s. put itself in a very. difficult situation because it's just really not about south korea and its position there it's all of the other alliances in the pacific and you know the japanese are going to be watching the people in taiwan are going to be watching the

philippines eccentrics cetera and the because i've always argued against these alliances because they're too complicated and your alliance partners can pull you into a conflict that you really don't want and but all of these partners going to be looking at the u.s. if the korean some somehow can come to some kind of agreement the united states is going to look weak no matter what the u.s. does it's going to it's going to backfire on itself ok and that's why they continue with this very hard line because of the perceptual b. if you give up on one you will give up on all the others because certainly japan doesn't want to see a united korea go ahead professor right your point about a great point and what i wanted to highlight the international dimension or regional dimension is quite close related to domestic political dimension as well for instance we need to keep in mind the points in the south korean politics for the past seventy years after the liberation. conservative group dominated korean

politics more than sixty years right so the thing is that those conservative groups in a basic rambling point is the anti communism way anti north korea and then those conservative domestic groups quite close to the link to where they american hardliners and hard line position so that kind of link is meant in domestic political dimension in a conservative if you know politics and then alliance relationship makes you know very complicated so i expect that you know when jane go under will try to slow down and coordinate the no international and the domestic political situation all together so it's a very you know three can difficult job but i think. matching the sequence and pacing of into creating. alliance coordination would be a critical you know gregory what is it look could be next year because i mean i

certainly don't know only thing i know about korean culture is it's food and it's great ok but what if they are kind of a cultural you know a cultural dynamic that can take on a life of its own here i mean taking one step in another step what would be the next one because as we said in the first part of the program the south koreans don't have a whole lot of leeway but there are other things they might be able to do what could they be go ahead. of certain extent of speculation but as far as what the korean press. in response to. your jaw. invitation for to come to pyongyang and meet to kim jong. convenience and improve relations he said well let's create the necessary conditions and there has to be dialogue between north korea and the united states in order for korea and north korean relations to improve for predicates that are improving u.s. relations with us. from fort. we did not return

a letter in response to kim jong un's personal letter but what the south korean government is talking about as as an initial step is to set a. private. a low level envoy not connected the government that would discuss the. reuniting divided families and so forth as a starting point and from there to slowly expand the types of contacts but to be very low key and i think i think it is still tied in to the view that he's got to bring a lot of the united states yeah to make it maybe kicking in that way kicking in dry dragging them to peace here kicking and screaming kicking and screaming absolutely brian i'll give you the last word here what do you think is going to happen next year because i don't see the u.s. backing down they want that bloody nose i mean that would be the end of the peninsula as we know it go ahead. the american government fears that peace could

break out in the korean peninsula because that would of course upset over turn american preeminence and dominance over the korean peninsula over over south korea the korean people do want peace i hope goes faster rather than slower because the only way that america's obstinance he can be overcome is through momenta ok. down and tries to kill us it won't work on that positive note here many thanks to my guests in washington columbus and in cambridge and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at r.t.c. you next time and remember crosstalk rules. the old long hard sell you on the idea that dropping bombs brings to the chicken or forcing you to fight the battles. that you stopped by to tell you that they'll be gossiping toplessness. off the bad guys and tell me you are not

pulling out but you're right. these are the hopes that we along the border will want. hey everybody i'm stephen bob. taft hollywood guy you know suspect every proud american first of all i'm just george bush and r.v.'s to say this is my buddy max famous financial guru well she's a little bit different i'm out of the room one could harness there are no windows up with all the drama happening in our country and i'm shooting the road have fun meet everyday americans calling and hopefully start to bridge that gap this is the great american people.

now for just. thirty i want to do is just show a new face do we really be very clear let's go away go to. management. and then on they they when they at the end they have. skimmed you need yeah you feel the. sun yeah i'm them what do you how much. do you. mean that we can measure the cost more next to.

germany's social democrat leader martin scholtz resigns after having recently agreed to form a. so-called grand coalition with chancellor angela merkel. and to another resignation in europe the foreign minister of the netherlands quits after admitting he lied about a meeting with a blood in the kitchen and the russian leaders intentions to forge a greater russia. in an exclusive interview with our t.v. the head of the court of arbitration for sports defends the olympic committee decision to exclude russian athletes which the court itself had already cleared of doping allegations. the fact that the unable to show the guilt of an athlete's. feet has nothing to do with the kids is.