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hello and welcome to cross talk we're all things are considered i'm peter lavelle the games have begun the younger sister of north korea's ruler kim jong un has captured the attention of the media while u.s. vice president mike pence was mocked as a dud even undiplomatic the two koreas are engaging each other this makes the washington foreign policy swamp fume. across talking the careers i'm joined by my guest brian becker in washington he's the director of the answer coalition as well as host of loud and clear a daily new show on radio sputnik and in columbus we have gregory illich he is a korea policy institute associate all right gentlemen crossed liberals in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want i. appreciate it brian let me get me go

to you here i'm sure you saw some of the mainstream corporate is coverage of the opening of the games and the what appears to be use some kind of reproach moment between the two koreas but i thought a lot of that coverage has really missed the point in the what's really important here is not if the two koreas can actually engage each other because well they are but how much is the united states willing to go along with this and gauge meant here because the united states has an awful lot at stake with its presence in south korea and its own not only about north korea's nuclear program go ahead brian well peter i believe that we're at a pivotal moment because the attempt by the south korean government the moon giant government that came about as a consequence of very popular uprising that overthrew the old timidity and led to the impeachment of the last conservative government and he. wants to have a rapprochement lessening of tensions and possibly the beginning of real

reconciliation on the korean peninsula between north and south korea this happened as happened in the past that happened certainly in the year two thousand madeline albright was dispatched by bill clinton to pyongyang canned john went and met with kim jong il who was kim jong un's father then head of north korea but when there was taking place at that time it was with washington's blessing and as a consequence we see right now and this is why i consider this to be a pivotal moment it's a test of whether or not the south korean government which is clearly looking over its shoulder to see how much resistance it's getting from washington will be able to finally take a step to emerge as a truly sovereign entity and able to carry out with in korean politics and on the korean peninsula its own policy. it's a shame you certainly don't see north korea looking over its shoulder to see whether russia. china approves of its moves but here you have south korea with tens

of thousands of american troops still in south korea and they they arrived in september one thousand nine hundred five they're still there. north korea doesn't have foreign troops on its soil so that is the big test will south korea be able to resist the pressure from washington it's the republicans it's the democrats it's the military industrial complex it's the cia none of that none of those institutional power centers in washington want there to be a real rock taking place in korea by koreans without the supervision of the americans gregory would weigh in on that because you know what what leeway does south korea have to make any kind of reproach with the north if there is a mutual engagement in any engagement that is real ok i mean i think western viewers tend to forget is that these are the two countries that could suffer the most if there is a complex here they have a real vested interest to start sitting down and deescalating what would has been

happening over the last few months here so what is the leeway the south koreans have gregory in columbus police you know of course we don't know what kind of discussions they're going on behind the scenes between the trump and and i imagine that's an enormous amount of pressure being applied on. however if you look back to former president to normal here on the south korean president during the time of george w. bush he also with faith in north pressure from the united states yet he went ahead and went to pyongyang and met kim jong il and he signed a series of economic agreement so you're here with much more forthright. warming relations with north korea than we've been who seems rather to cost of to me so i don't know if the nature of who their third threats that are going on behind the things one can only speculate but it is in the interests of the korean people both north and south that moves to act now and take the lead improving.

between their careers and pick and accepting the open hand from the north koreans regard with the war washington it's the korean people who would pay the price of trump reeses the war with north korea and people who are currently paying the price of economic. structure and caused by. corny and sanctions i think it's time for thought create a committee you know brian you here in the in western media is that. north korea is trying to be a wedge between your breakaway the united states and in south korea but it's actually the united states is the wedge between north korea and south korea go ahead it's just amazing i mean korea has been a unitary entity with with a common culture for so long for thousands of years in fact and here because north south koreans want to talk to north koreans and vice versa that's a wedge for america which is thousands of miles away it shows the arrogance and hubris and i would say the racism the architectural racism of the of the whole

paradigm whereby south korea does not have the right to carry out its own independent negotiations you are right peter the wedge in korea is the united states korea was divided at the thirty eighth parallel because a couple of americans who didn't know anything about korea drew a line and they showed it to their soviet counterparts and the two sides agreed that there would be two zones of control in the korean peninsula and then five years later when soviet troops and american troops had temporarily for the soviets permanently left the korean peninsula there was a war and the war began in june one nine hundred fifty it was the unsettled issue of the post-war configuration north korea had considered itself to be an independent anti japanese colonial fighting force and the south korean government was created by the americans and it was just the lackeys of the south of the japanese who were put into place and they ruled by virtue of a military. kater ship now we have

a situation where the united states does not want to give up its control over south korea because south korea one is an important military base for the united states and creates part of a network of bases along with the eleven american bases in japan it's part of the ongoing asia pivot so-called that obama announced but really has been going on for a lot longer since before then so the united states is a fearful that south korea could become independent that's the real issue what does north korea want north korea wants the security guarantee they want to and the u.s. south korean military exercises that simulate the destruction of their country that take place twice a year there's a possibility for a negotiated outcome here if there's one obstacle the real obstacle to a negotiated outcome of the korean peninsula crisis is in washington d.c. it's not pyongyang or and so. you know part of the security architecture of south korea is that if there is some kind of conflict

a major conflict the entire control of the korean military is under an american four star general i mean as an expert on korea i mean how does that sit with the korean population when they know that you know it's going to be the united states ultimately it's going to control that determine their security future and then you have. reaching out its hand we don't know if it's real we don't know if it's genuine we don't know if this is just a ploy i mean it's a small step optics or something but i mean how does south korea feel about that i mean maybe one time they needed that kind of security guarantee but it's well it's a very powerful rich country. how does that play into their thinking about dealing with north korea go ahead to gregory. you mentioned the agreement that in wartime where you were the military would pick the korean for through and. through a bit and more time from the. and so the south korea would have control over its

own forces in a war time but each time the deadline the us or conservative thought korean president postponed it so there's this keeps getting pushed farther and farther into the future and unfortunate we're still stuck in the situation i think right now is probably making south korean people quite nervous when you have a very direct with trump administrator who seems to be rather a blip if to the harm caused by launching strikes the north korea so i think that makes people in south korea quite nervous but i think the u.s. military is not in the habit of respecting the wishes of the south korean people or even the full korean military look at how the u.s. imposed the fat battery on south korea without. prior approval or even his initial knowledge it came as a surprise to him that the u.s. was imposing a battery we're look at how the u.s. refuses to pay the unit costs cleaning up the environment to destruct

destruction on the military bases it's close. i don't think through the south korean people are happy about being vulnerable to whatever the u.s. military commands you know what i mean let me go back to brian i mean these to add this and that into missile defense i mean it just makes south korea target you know that the u.s. says it's which they are to protect their interests but actually it's not the u.s. that is targeted to actually this missile system is targeted against china and again korea is right smack in the middle of all disco head brian indeed i mean that stands for the terminal high altitude area defense is meaning it provides an anti missile defense so-called for for missiles that are at high altitude if there was a war between north and south korea north korea wouldn't be sending up high altitude missiles to hit so just thirty miles from the d.m.z. i mean on its face it's absurd and ridiculous clearly. that is against is designed

to do to threaten china and to threaten russia to achieve what the americans hope to be a first strike capability exercising military supremacy in the future by ringing china and russia with these kind of missile defense programs that make a first strike first rate assault possible here's another thing and i think greg is right and it's very important that the pentagon or rushed to deploy a fad before and during the transition between cocky and he and moon because they thought and would be a liberal and because the liberals in the opposition inside of south korea didn't want it so they just ran down the throat of the people of south korea i mean clearly ok american guy and i think this is an important hang on hang hold on to that point brian we're going to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on the koreas stayed with us.

when else so this seems wrong. but i'll lose just don't call. me i'll get to sleep out to sleep because that's a good and in detroit equals betrayal. when somebody thought themselves well it's a party we choose to look for common ground. hey everybody i'm stephen bob taft hollywood guy you know suspect every proud american first of all i'm just george washington and r.v.'s to say this is my buddy max famous financial guru just a little bit different i'm not. going to win those up with all the drama happening

in our country i'm shooting the road have some fun meet every day americans. and hopefully start to bridge the gap this is the great american people which. is getting international recognition with the help of israel at least in the world of zoos i'm in bill fiddlesticks mission to do it like you know that this is my complicity is something going on local study hall meetings you know john i just hope. the only palestinians who gets the most help from his jerusalem counterparts

i don't think there's some of those who in the world under the oak vision could not only could do this. and know it is all of us not just to have this lady in the muscle that you had i'm going to continue muslims you know do more commitments also don't put this off. welcome back to crossfire all things considered you were discussing the koreas. ok and now i'd like to bring in our another guest in cambridge he's an assistant professor at breaux college city university of new york as well as a specialist on korea and the asian and asian affairs professor to the program sorry it was a little bit late ken i'd like to ask you a very kind of general question here we have after this public ceremony that we had

with the north korean delegation meeting with the south the opening of the games it was very optically rich we can put it that way but. after we had that optically rich experience we have very conflicting messages coming out of washington from the secretary of state taylor saying. we have vice president pence saying you know he was very brusque i'm sure he was that was. a message that was sent intentionally and then we have what he said maybe we could talk some kind under certain conditions we all know what those conditions are and then we have secretary of state tillerson basically saying no i mean what what is washington saying what kind of message is it sending to the careers if any right now go ahead now right now i think it's really confusing madness and as you know well you know. white house state department and all of those key decision makers repeatedly highlighted that everything is on the table but everything on the table it seems to have been on the

. military option or even regime change on the one hand but at the same time they repeatedly highlighted that united state is ready to talk so still u.s. government position in dealing with north korean crisis is pretty much you know confusing and mixed masses in terms of dealing with kim's i'm going kind of you know so-called you know madman prison trumper tried to deal with you know a madman in terms of more mad men kind of you know you know creating uncertainty. but one of the. in problem of the u.s. government moralizing international relations of course know the current regime is very horrible and their condition there is really horrible and disastrous but if we moralize you know russian relations and like you know absolutely to write an absolute wrong so it's kind of approach would be not good in terms of dealing with

a crisis situation. if i go back to gregory in columbus i mean the trumpet ministration is said that it will apply maximum pressure on north korea but also. i mean i don't see any of the engagement in when someone doesn't gauge the south koreans they get snubbed for a day. actually did you just think washington was caught off food on all of this i mean because we have again we have these conflicting reactions coming out of washington go ahead greg i actually don't think there are conflicting reactions coming out of washington so if you read very carefully the washington post article in which with quoted on there is return flight from what do you actually said was that being nuclearization have to be and if so if. you have to take additional steps to be nuclear efficient the u.s. is open to talks preliminary talks during which of course you were layout of and the actual negotiator great great no greater than the moment all right but go ahead

go ahead go ahead. the precondition for negotiations is for north korea to suspend. otherwise give the united states what it wants. and even to begin ok well that's just great bryan i mean the north koreans saw what happened to libya they saw what happened in iraq and why in the end a lot of people have speculated that's why they have gone down the nucular road ok i mean why in the world with the north koreans give up this program and expose themselves when they're being threatened with blood. he knows you know seven ways to sunday i mean the the it's absurd what's coming out of washington and if they haven't thought it through as usual go ahead brian your question answers itself in fact and north korea won't give up its nuclear program and the united states knows the u.s. won't korea won't give up its nuclear program. and maximum pressure just for our

audience to understand what this these these euphemistic terms mean the united states is trying to create famine in north korea when you deprive people of trade in deprive them of food and deprive them of medicine you're trying to create famine to weaken the government and that's what the u.s. did to iraq before invading iraq sanctions were in place for thirteen years according to the un's own statistics a million iraqis died because of that and then the us invaded so sanctions and war go hand in hand sanctions an open war we have a situation where north korea not only learned the lesson of iraq it gave up its weapons of mass destruction or libya and then the countries were invaded in the leaders were executed it also is fully aware of what happened in east germany it does not want to be swallowed up by a more internationally connected second half of the country so the north korean government is acutely aware of the imperative need for its own security and that's

all it really seeks here is a security guarantee you i wanted to mention one thing peter real quick. lindsey graham represents a certain sector of american public political thinking where he said you know let's get that war over with yeah basically you know plays golf with donald trump oh yeah let's get the war over with because all the dining will be over there that it goes back to your earlier question there's kind of a gratuitous you know in moral and ethical position of american policy makers let's have a war because only koreans or japanese or people from the from the asia pacific will die that's a minority sentiment right now but i think that's a sentiment that's playing well trying to convince the trusted ministration to reverse course here when they go down that road and that's why they want to have a parade afterwards ok let me go back to the professor in cambridge doesn't it doesn't the u.s. put itself in a very. difficult situation because it's just really not about south korea and its

position there it's all of the other alliances in the pacific and you know the japanese are going to be watching the people in taiwan are going to be watching the philippines etc etc and the because i've always argued against these alliances because they're too complicated and your alliance partners can pull you into a conflict that you really don't want and but all of these partners going to be looking at the u.s. if the korean some somehow can come to some kind of agreement the united states is going to look weak no matter what the u.s. does it's going to it's going to backfire on itself ok and that's why they continue with this very hard line because of the perception to be if you give up on one you will give up on all the others because certainly japan doesn't want to see a united korea go ahead professor right your point about a great point and what i wanted to highlight those you know international dimension a regional dimension is quite close related to domestic political dimension as well

for instance we need to keep in mind the points in the south korean politics for the past seventy years after the liberation. conservative group dominated korean politics more than sixty years right so the thing is that those conservative groups in a basic rambling point is the anti communism way anti north korea and then those conservative domestic groups quite close to the link to where the american hardliners and all hard line position so that kind of link is between the mastic political dimension the conservative if you know politics and then alliance relationship makes you know very complicated so i expect that you know when jane go under will try to slow down and coordinate this no international and the domestic political situation all together so it's a very you know three can difficult job but i think. matching the sequence and pacing of into korea. alliance called nation would be

a critical gregory what is it look could be next year because i mean i certainly don't know only thing i know about korean culture is its food and its great ok but what will it say were kind of a cultural you know a cultural dynamic that can take on a life of its own here i mean taking one step in another step what would be the next one because as we said in the first part of the program the south koreans don't have a whole lot of leeway but there are other things they might be able to do what could they be go ahead. of certain extent of speculation but as far as what the korean press. in response to. your jaw. invitation for to come to pyongyang and me to kim jong. convenience and improve relations he said well let's create the necessary conditions and there has to be dialogue between north korea and the united states in order for thoughts korea and north korean relations to improve for predicates that are improving u.s.

relations with us. from fort. he did not return a letter in response to kim jong un's personal letter but what the south korean government is talking about as as an initial step is to set a. private. low level envoy not connected to government that would discuss domestic issues. reuniting divided families and so forth as a starting point and from there to slowly expand the types of contacts but to be very low key and i think i think that and it's still tied in to the view that he's got to bring a lot of the united states you know yeah to make it maybe kicking in that way kicking in dry dragging them to peace here kicking and screaming kicking and screaming absolutely brian i'll give you the last word here what do you think is going to happen next year because i don't see the u.s. backing down they want that bloody no it's i mean that would be the end of the

peninsula as we know it go ahead. yeah the american government fears that peace could break out in the korean peninsula because that would of course upset and overturn american preeminence and dominance over the korean peninsula over over south korea the korean people do one piece i hope goes faster rather than slower because the only way that america's obstinance he can be overcome is through momenta ok. down and tries to kill us it won't work on that positive note here many thanks to my guests in washington columbus and in cambridge and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at r.t. see you next time and remember crosstalk rules. about your sudden passing i phone lee just learned you were yourself and taken your last wrong turn. to you as we all knew it would i tell you i'm sorry.

so i write these last words in hopes to put to rest these things that i never got off my chest. i remember when we first met my life turned on each day. but then my feeling started to change you talked about more like it was a cave still some more fun to view those that didn't like to question our ark and i secretly promised to never be like it's one does not leave a funeral the same as one enters the mind gets consumed with this one to. speak to us there are no other takers. claimed that mainstream media has met its make.

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seven pm moscow time headlining this hour from our shooting incident this morning local time there outside the u.s. national security agency h.q. has left several people injured according to the n.s.a. the suspected shooter's being to put all the latest on that coming up plus. enough of your sweet nothings for this uncertain approach breaks it and gets a few remaining says come from the government except this morning i want going to. persuade everybody britain's foreign secretary says those opposing for exit of betraying the country as boris johnson defends the u.k. ejected from the e.u. during a barrage of questions from the media across it. the foreign minister quits after revealing that he lied about a meeting with the russian president way back in two thousand and six way claim.