our country paid a high price for that i heard you say that. that allowed terrorism and extremism take root in pakistan and changed the fabric of your own society wouldn't that have happened anyway regardless of your cooperation with every day united states because we see that the growth of extremism in many countries across the world particularly muslim countries no absolutely not and i don't think i'm particularly trying to be diplomatically here i would not use the word proxy but i would just say that pakistan because of its proximity to have understand sharing a border of thousands of kilometers we were. spirits or the peace or the graphical spirit we're. the first gun in the contemporary times. effort to rid this country the of one sort of occupation by soviet union was on our land so where is everybody including the united states of america many

european countries many middle eastern countries or what you mean called west asia was contributing in terms of funneling in funds giving intelligence assistance giving weapons sometimes of pretty decent destruction it was our land which was used as a conduit and in the same with it was our land where majority of the boats from within the land as in pakistan and outside of the land as in many middle eastern countries were allowed to be trained and training camps are allowed to be said i think that was a strategic mistake that pakistan needs and pakistan had to be heavily for it and if you look at pakistan's trajectory before nine hundred seventy nine you see a pakistan which is doing you see a pakistan that is developing you see a pakistan whose human development index far exceeds that of the region and is comparable to anywhere else in the world and forced the eighty's you see a pakistan which is struggling to. with these frankensteins which were created so

these are realities these are lessons of history you know we can use different naaman closure to define them but the you cannot change the facts that that is what changed but the stance sort of has the growth to be trajectory where pakistan was going in the right direction and really sort of exposed pakistan to many many dangers of extremist thoughts and extremist mindset having been treated in the mindset and also to our land being used and it took a long while to be able to come to grips with it it took a long way even and we still struggling to ensure that most of our territories completely rid of such elements well i hope we can speak about controlling your television territory bit later but before we go there the soviet presence in afghanistan since has been replaced by the american presence and in some respects day the american military operation in afghanistan last longer than the soviet why do you think the most powerful military in the world is still capable to put an end

to to that conflict you know it's interesting because i don't think you know at this point we'll be sitting seventeen years into the war my point of view is as important as literature and the books which are coming in from the american side and i think there's a broad recognition all over the world internationally and within the american intelligence. and perhaps also the government that this was a war which was not well thought out this was a war which was horribly gotten into because of an angry bush government it war which was really gotten into because to appease domestic pressure in some isn't domestic anger over nine eleven it was a war whose objectives end objectives reasonable realistic and objectives were never very clear of it already reachable so you see the bush nation building objective then you see the obama reading of one territory from a guy though. even though you see it confused trump objective it just relies on the

past failures rather than the past excesses and decides to instead of moving towards reconciliation and allowing of ones to really be able to manage their own business still sending in more troops to see whether it is that we be very clear and almost undiplomatic in saying this whether it is troops or american troops the long term presence of international troops in the one son can never board with ford of once or for the region it will only bring in more instability might our problem is that in the last seventeen years it seems that we have learned nothing from the war we are spending forty five billion dollars and them on military hardware we have results which speak on the ground there as more and more territory is now outside of government control of one government control rather than with of one government and yet we decide to go on the continue to use military hardware as the solution to this hasn't gone gotten us much in the last seventeen years and frankly

speaking if you go on the stream trajectory i find it rather curious that you're using this we print out and associating pakistan then the american foreign policy but it's just an interesting observation what i want to ask you is that i had a couple of chances to interview former president of afghanistan hamid karzai and hugh sensually believes that the war has lasted for so long because the americans don't want it to end his position is that americans are simply strategically using afghanistan as a place to try to contain that adversaries in iran and russia and china perhaps is that. the view that is shared in islamabad you increasingly i think that's a view that is getting sort of more easily accepted as you see. you know as you see the play out of this war because as i said it. it is beyond

reason to think that the same very reasons which have gotten us to successful sort of war objectives continue to be the mainstream continue to be the objective and i won't bore you no i don't believe in the real of or believe in conspiracy theories i like to of course steer away from them but for instance a recent steve called book's book claims that we are in initially the american dollar objective was not long term bases in the understand but how the region has progressed in the last many years perhaps no it is one of the goals our objectives but that's that's one mission america is one mission the us is one mission right we i would still like to believe for the sake of everyone and for the sake of peace and stability that with it's the russians or the americans or the pakistanis or the indians or the ones by and large we may want to pursue meeting the different groups but by and large who we are objective is the thing which is peace and stability

within the region which is peace and stability and security of the of one people within the one son and author of one people know if that is the goal then clearly whether it is within a one a stone or for the region the long term presence of of foreign troops inside of one the sun territory can not bode well for the region or for a one to stand so therefore i would have much rather and we would have and by the state be i'm talking more pakistan than pakistan than us that we would have liked to see a strategy which was a bit which was learning from the past mistakes not committed to repeating the past mistakes now madam if i may ask you you previously referred to pakistanis efforts to take control of its territory and this is one of the most frequent allegations leveled against your country that you've been providing safe havens to various militant groups i know that pakistan is busy constructing a wall on its western border which is casual to be completed next year what one is

there do you think that will put to rest all these save have an allegation do you think it's appreciated and after how much your country is investing in in its border security. you know anyone with a modicum of sanity or reason would ask a counter question to anyone who makes allegations of pakistan being the host to all the terrorism that goes inside one territory that if it is all emanating from pakistan then why does the west why does the us not commit itself to building a fence and having biometric systems and having sophisticated border management systems why is the us and of once repeated the resisting that since the last decade or so. i mean to a reasonable mind the only thing that comes as an explanation is so that they still have the ability to scapegoat pakistan and blame all the failures of the of one governments and you've seen plenty of those in the last many years you see right now in the one situation where two of the governors including one or are done with a pretty serious

a pretty heavy bit of both province and another govern the recently who have defied the authority of the president and who have said that there's where the president has dismissed them they are happily going around running their province as if nothing has happened so there is no immense governance failure within a one a stand would you all talk meaning i think pakistan is would be well within their right to say it and all of the poppy cultivation that has increased since of american presence in the one is done by three thousand percentage points and more according to the u.n. is also pakistan's doing because that is also feeding into and going into financing of terrorism so you see it's easy to get into this blame game and much more difficult and much more complicated complicated and much when you want to sit down and really look at the mistakes that we have perhaps the letter we made all of us and be able to then look at a future strategy which is the raft of those mistakes and looks at perhaps ways of . doing things differently so as far as the allegation on pakistan or not doing

enough is concerned as you mean nor ever since the government you know over since the democratic dispensation scheme in pakistan there have been not one but many military operation. and we have as we speak just before coming for your interview i was reading a very good article in the economist magazine which i talked about how the north was the busiest down which was considered to be the hotbed of terrorism within the region is now an excellent example of how stability and peace can be brought within the region and this is not if i pissed on military or the pakistan government ought to go this is an economist article well madam hard we have to take a short break now but we will be back in just a few moments as they chant. fill

in the hot very materially of a bottomless saudi china six oir. an estimated eighteen percent under a trophy jeans are now living in greece. you know still. hold on to your home in the euro food drink. many sell their bodies just to make ends meet. with the on the second on the on the system but. all of this says a lot of things could. turn to dealing drugs to make a living. and love love love the little. things.

it's focused on ending the war and that's not intermingled the humanitarian concern which is the bombing of hospitals a bombing of civilians the shelling of the damascus by rebel groups that's not enough for the bombing by the year as i was mentioned earlier that's a mix of that with the political objectives which some people may still have. the new global economic war is unfolding in the realm of education the right to education is being supplanted by the right to access education loan higher

education is becoming just another product that can be pulled from the sold so there's not just about education anymore it's also about running a business and what you're good models of regime like could this also come in the fairly good to me. what is the place of students in this business model for college i was more now i'm running stream or higher education the new global economic wall. plug them into will department in their red body are for my foreign minister of pakistan. just before the break are you were talking about. tries the pakistan has been trying to take in battling terrorism and it doesn't seem to be unnoticed all

that well because pakistan has just been put on their grade at least of nations with inadequate terrorist financing and money laundering controls now it was also done urging of of the united states so you can perhaps accuse it of having political motivations of putting pressure on on your country but this is not the first time that it happened when you were in office your country was actually blacklisted i wonder how damaging your thing it's going to be to the country's economy because obviously it's an affront to national reputation but. does it actually bring any harm to your balance sheets to the way you do business. you see of course there will be negative consequences ok in terms of people's perception possible investors perception of markets and perhaps in impact on the possible foreign date and this man that we come into pakistan but you know well and i think the world also saw it well enough that this was more than the reality on

the ground it was being led as in means to put diplomatic pressure on pakistan and i think this is bad strategy this is simply a bad strategy because pakistan happens to be an important country but in the region and in for anything the failed strategy of the united states is to try and put more pressure on pakistan instead of trying to engage with pakistan as a sovereign country as a country which has deep abiding interest for peace and stability within the region which far exceed the interest of any other country including the united states of america because whatever happens and when the sun has a drive a wrecked immediate impact on pakistan the border as forest as it is everything apparently as you know for instance t.t.p. that we could i live in pakistan which is good butchered children in pakistan by who are by hundreds is enjoying safe haven in the understand however pakistan doesn't go and try and blame game and embarrassed america on that almost or understand on what is being done so when we saw a president

a stroke when he talking about the responsibility of the state has to make sure its territory is not used against the other the same goes for each one of us so when president bush or when he would be in much more credibility if he were to together with americans be able to ensure that history tree is not being used to secure and give ample space open space to terrorists who are killing children in pakistan so you know this game can go on endlessly i am just very shocked and embarrassed and just saddened by the fact that instead of everyone coming to terms with the rather complicated realities on the ground and. getting together getting their heads together to see how they can each contribute to solving this problem it seems that we are now part of the you know of it of this endless blame game of this endless you know mission to try and embarrass the other and to try and you know. just prove

that what we did was right and what everybody else is doing is what is causing the problem clearly there's a problem on the ground clearly everybody can get together and solve it better than everybody accusing each other we have talked about the at the at the issues that pakistan has on its. western border but you also have issues on your border with india just the other day there was a major exchange of have a fire claiming both military and civilian lives how serious is this rat of this latest violent episode growing into something bigger you see if you are saying the other day today front page news in pakistan newspapers has pictures of truth but based on the soldiers who have lost lives in the sea to indian fighting and also please remember with that that unlike pakistan who does not do it a state policy no one less than the indian army chief has made mr robert has made teams that this is now willing to be their policy that they will use it in the sea to try and put a lot of what he calls you know give pakistan

a lot of stress and this is ridiculous and this is unfortunately not the behavior of major states let alone the state which is why and to be a member of the security council because movies india you must understand has changed so the secular india that we all used to seeing in the last few decades india that we consider to be a shining india because of its secularism because of its truth etc movie has brought in a completely different complection to what india is to did that is street lynching this trip of him in a street statecraft within kashmir there pellet guns used to blind young children with interest. so with that type of an india it's very difficult to try and engage i understand that they did the difficulty but i'm sure you know that there are similar accusations on the indian part as well as just a moment ago you try to call for reconciliation every conciliation and then voiding blame game so let's perhaps practice

a little bit of that because their ideas calls for richer abuse in india ranging from stripping pakistan of the most favorite nation status to banning pakistani artists in bollywood i know that when you were in office you actually called forced stronger ties for better ties between india and pakistan and it looks like you have major doubts if a dive could be achieved under the current leadership i want to know if you see the problem only in the indian government or if you believe that the pakistani authorities may also not be responding in the most. friendly and peace conducive manner the truth is that both the states have historically use each other and then them against each other to define their identity and that's the bitter truth we tried but we were in government to steer with from leaving india for all the wars of pakistan from looking the other way when india was even on the wrong

and seeing let's build the let's have creators crossing the border rather than terrorists let's try and build some trust so that we can move forward and then in that effort images of major. concern of india of pakistan not giving in and if and status we have to give government approval for that and we increased the number of items that could be created in there to normalize relations i believe that to stew the way to go because you need need solving the certainly the elephant in the room but you cannot saltfish meet until you have normalization of ties between india and pakistan i am a believer in. that i will continue to give believe in that there's a movie on the other side or a mormon thing or any other leader however i'm just trying to explain the context where it becomes very difficult to give peace a word to us towards the other side when you have the leader on the other side who would rather be. who would choose not to be

a statesman and who would define himself as a hindu through was leader and not in indian leader even with this movie i would say that pakistan needs to sure it's as a completely different animal than the current indian policy and pakistan must stand fast of the stay on the track of peace and dialogue dialogue and more dialogue i remember when the same thing happened when it was the commish is that up to during our time i was on the floor of the un at that time having a security council conference because we were elected and elected member of the security council during our times and from there i sent a message to the indians from the floor of the un that this cannot be solved by accusations and counter-accusations threats and counter threats i invite my indian counterpart to engage in dialogue at any level of his choosing at the level of the foreign minister i am still is we are still and pakistan of the same mind and when i say we i mean everyone in pakistan because in pakistan i think we understand that we are also citizens of this region and this region has to prosper together it has

to develop together peace look around all over the world all regions have developed together you cannot have a single country shining in the midst of all with the end hunger and terrorism it doesn't happen like that so we need to change what we require if you me is for people for leaders to want to be statesman rather than care about their water going to come from but i think the irony i mean we all understand that but they are any it is all always i think far more difficult to develop good neighborly ties with your immediate neighbors than perhaps some countries across the world i know that you are a strong believer that regional players may have had. greater ability to propose a solution barry anted approach for many of their regional issues but when you when you have so many mutual grievances some of them you just laid out in this interview do you believe that have why do you believe having all those leaders they tend to be predominantly ma'am why do you believe that having them sitting around the table

can actually produce anything productive rather than mutual become a nation speech have been going on for years if not decades ok i believe that because i've been a practitioner of foreign policy i believe that because in the dime that we were in government markedly improved ties with india and i believe that because i believe that this region is an exception in not being able to move from the past move away from the past every country has. has a history of perhaps why isn't perhaps territorial disputes with other countries or with the world ok but you have to first of all make a choice do you want to be hostage do you do want to be held hostage to the past and let the past define the present in the future or do you want to break away from the past and the lessons from history and make if you choose which is different than your past because our past is not good the pastor says region is terrible it is based on him you know i always use the example for instance let's assume that if

india and pakistan started it with a basket of problems that they inherited from the you know from the colonial masters or during their independence from the british which included kashmir and perhaps a creek after that did we add to that basket of problems of the beauty moved things from that but basket of problems and i would argue that we added to that basket of problems but i think india led to it bargain pakistan led to it and many many things hence forth and expressed some people will argue the member is you know so all of these are things that he did in the recent history these are contemporary things that contemporary enough so it instead of statesman removing things from the past. in saying let's move forward let's create the environment to move forward we're actually getting to the basket and there are obviously elements within what countries which benefit from this of you know and the more city building building putting them in as the enemy and constantly living in this enmity are we forgetting

that this region was the among the highest in with the poor anywhere in the world is our first commitment not supposed to be to those who are the citizens of both pakistan and india or is our first commitment supposed to be to the evils of the two countries i think it's time to keep that hugo's aside religious time and if in seventy years unfortunately that is what saddens me that in we have and we had a seventy years of not managing these relations very well now we seem it seems especially because of the trend that india has taken i repeatedly say this because i do see a change in pakistan i said with utmost honesty and i stayed with it with a course responsibility because in pakistan for instance we are going to be going to elections in the next three months or four months india bashing is not going to be an election issue however look at any election in india a state election look at people like shashi tharoor who will be academics great scholars etc but when then when it comes to pakistan their opinion will be no different than in the in the. person because it appears to hit india sorry pakistan

in india and in seem weird to some elements within pakistan that peace to hit. india as much well madame higher would only add that there are good examples of defying the. chant of historical animosity and the russian pakistani relationship is one of such examples a few decades ago we consider that other anime's nowadays there is very intensive diplomacy between our countries there is some military cooperation and honorary consul was appointed by russia and the city of cash were just the other day so you can turn that trying to find a message around the eve of course you put your mind and heart to it anyway i have to you. thank you for your participation in our show today to our viewers please keep the conversation going in our social media pages as for me hope to see the same place same time here on the worlds apart.

in some american cities the police. cling to refutation people who walk on the streets of the united states who are at risk from the very people who are supposed to protect that people are no more afraid of the police than if. you can see something happening and this is like i don't want to call the cops. rather than call the cops in. their lives chasing the same goods on the trigger you never know better safe than sorry i don't know that someone else is going to pull

a gun so yeah unfortunately around and around here we end up killing our guns are stolen from such preclusion police to. some it's not so there's not a quick place called the good country. to live. and love to spend. a visit with us but that's a call that is. just to approach a. list with this live shot here because yes. all. just for the embrace from the low moment of oneself to be the middle. of this fossil. play almost anything for the numbers for me and i think our better john said i'm based on on my show last night no one can i do not cover with lies from

that make matter how not a kid. from a shallow time in cannot. confront a man i cannot lose him someone must feel right now with the fuckin i'm a. good sister to my son and now fargo show you go to sleep i don't want to go to the snooze in the micra voices in the thick of the world over the sleep. i'm about to go for you know that was this. was well. thought out. for. her i love her.

then. the stories that shape the week there's a cold war frenzy in the mainstream media are off to president putin unveiled russia's new strategic also with his annual state of the nation address the white house and the country learning of that new threat from russian president warning he said at first reason and in the west in particular to mess with russia and he says he's not bluffing what we call in the humanitarian corridor or set up in syria's eastern due to a lot of civilians a chance to escape continues to come under. heavy shelling as of now only two children have managed to leave hope to bring you live updates my thoughts on that coming up on the program. and just a couple of hours now of voting left in its release of general election campaign over immigration and jobs with the e.u. nervously awaiting what could be.