you're putting it very diplomatically in terms of saying that pakistan was trying to reach out to. certain countries oceans away because i heard you say in other interviews that you believe that your country actually served as a proxy to the united states during the time of the soviet intervention in afghanistan serving as a training ground for d.n.a. and you also recognize that your country paid a high price for that i heard you say that. that allowed terrorism and extremism take root in pakistan and changed the fabric of your own society. wouldn't that have happened anyway regardless of your cooperation with everyday united states because we see that the growth of extremism in many countries across the world particularly muslim countries no absolutely not and i don't think i'm particularly trying to be diplomatically here i would not use the word proxy but i would just say that pakistan because of its proximity to one the sun sharing a border of thousands of kilometers we were we became the space or the peace or the

graphical spheres we're. the first gun in the contemporary dime's. effort to rid this country the of one sort of patient by soviet union was on our land so it is everybody including the united states of america many european countries many middle eastern countries or what you mean called west asia was contributing in terms of funneling in funds giving intelligence assistance giving weapons sometimes of pretty decent destruction it's a cry it was our land which was used as a conduit and in the same with it was our land we are both from within the land in pakistan and outside of the land as in many middle eastern countries were allowed to be trained and training camps are allowed to be said i think that. it was

a strategic mistake that pakistan needs and pakistan had to be heavily for it and if you look at pakistan's trajectory before one nine hundred seventy nine you see a pakistan which is doing you see a pakistan that is developing you see a pakistan whose human development index far exceeds that of the region and is comparable to anywhere else in the world and forced the eighty's you see a pakistani which is struggling to deal with these frankensteins which were created so these are realities these are lessons of history you know we can use different naaman closure to define them but the you cannot change the fact that that is what changed but the stance sort of has the growth to be trajectory where pakistan was going in the right direction and really sort of exposed pakistan to many many dangers of extremist thought and extremist mindset having been treated in the mindset and also talk our land being used and it took a long while to be able to come to grips with it it took a long way even and we still struggling to ensure that most of our terry priest

completely rid of such elements well i hope we can speak about controlling your television territory bit later but before we go there the soviet presence in afghanistan since has been replaced by the american presence and in some respects day the american military operation in afghanistan last longer than the soviet why do you think the most powerful military in the world is still capable to put an end to to that conflict you know it's interesting because i don't think you know at this point we'll be sitting seventeen years into the war my point of view is as important as literature and the books which are coming in from the american side and i think there's a broad recognition all over the world internationally and within the american intelligence. and perhaps also the government that this was a war which was not well thought out this is a war which was horribly gotten into because of an angry bush government it was.

which was really gotten into because to appease domestic pressure in some isn't domestic anger over nine eleven it was a war whose objectives and objectives reasonable realistic and objectives were never very clear on what is already reachable so you see the bush nation building objective then you see the. reading of one territory from a guy though directive and now you see it confused trump objective it just relies on the past failures rather than the past excesses and decides to instead of moving towards reconciliation and allowing of ones to really be able to manage their own business still sending in more troops to see whether it is that we be very clear and almost undiplomatic in saying this whether it is your troops or american troops the long term presence of international troops in the one son can never board with ford of once or for the region it will only bring in more instability might our problem is that in the last seventeen years it seems that we have learned nothing

from the war we are spending forty five billion dollars and them on military hardware we have results which speak on the ground there as more and more territory is now outside of government control of one government control rather than with of one government and yet we decide to go on the continue to use military hardware as the solution to this hasn't gone gotten us much in the last seventeen years and frankly speaking if you go on the stream trajectory i find it rather curious that you're using this we print out and associating pakistan then the american foreign policy but it's just an interesting observation what i want to ask you is that i had a couple of chances to interview former president of afghanistan hamid karzai and hugh sensually believes that the war has lasted for so long because the americans don't want it to and his position is that the americans are simply strategically using afghanistan as a. place to or try to contain that adversaries in iran and russia and china perhaps

is that. the view that is shared in islamabad you increasingly i think that's a view that is getting sort of more easily accepted as you see. you know as you see the play out of this war because as i said it is beyond reason to think that the seem very reasons which have gotten us to an unsuccessful sort of war objectives continue to be the mainstream continue to be the objective and i won't bore you no i don't believe in the real of or believe in conspiracy theories i like to of course steer away from them but for instance a recent steve called books book teams that we are in initially the american goal or objective was not long term bases in the one to stand but how the region has progressed in the last many years perhaps now it is one of the goals or objectives

but that's that's one mission america is one mission the us is one mission great we i would still like to believe for the sake of everyone and for the sake of peace and stability that whether it's the russians or the americans or the pakistanis or the indians or the ones by and large we may want to pursue meeting their different groups but by and large hopefully our objective is the theme which is peace and stability within the region which is peace and stability and security of the of one people within the one son and author of one people know if that is the goal then clearly whether it is within a one a stone or for the region the long term presence of of foreign troops inside of one the sun territory can not bode well for the region or for a one to stand so therefore i would have much rather and we would have and when i say we i'm talking more and more pakistan than pakistan then us that we would have liked to see a strategy which was a bit which was learning from the past mistakes not committed to rip. both mistakes

now madam if i may ask you you previously referred to pakistanis efforts to take control of its territory and this is one of the most frequent allegations leveled against your country that you've been providing safe havens to various militant groups i know that pakistan is busy constructing a wall on its western border which is scheduled to be completed next year what one is there do you think that will put to rest old the save have an allegation do you think it's appreciated and after how much your country is investing in its border security. you know anyone with a modicum of sanity or reason would ask a counter-question to anyone who makes allegations on pakistan being the host to all the terrorism that goes inside one territory that if it is all emanating from pakistan then why does the west why does the us not commit itself to building a fence and having biometric systems and having sophisticated border management systems why is the us and of once repeated the resisting that since the last decade

or so. i mean to a reasonable mind the only thing that comes as an explanation is so that they still have the ability to scapegoat pakistan and blame all the failures of the of one governments and you've seen plenty of those in the last many years you see right now in the one situation where two of the governors including one or are done with a pretty serious a pretty heavy bit of both province and another governor recently who have defied the authority of the president and who have said that there's where the president has dismissed them they are happily going around running their province as if nothing has happened so there is no immense governance failure within a understand and would you all talk meaning i think pakistanis would be well within their right to say that all of the poppy cultivation that has increased since of american presence in the one is done by three thousand percentage points and more according to the u.n. is also pakistan's doing because that is also feeding into and going into financing of terrorism so you see it's easy to get into this blame game and much more

difficult and much more complicated complicated and much when you want to sit down and really look at the mistakes that we have perhaps the letter we made all of us and be able to then look at a future strategy which is the raft of those mistakes and looks at perhaps ways of . doing things differently so as far as the allegation on pakistan or not doing enough is concerned as you mean nor ever since the government you know over since the democratic dispensation scheme in pakistan there have been not one but many military operation. and we have as we speak just before coming for your interview i was reading a very good article in the economist magazine which i talked about how it's not was the busiest down which was considered to be the hotbed of terrorism within the region is now an excellent example of how stability and peace can be brought within the region and this is not if i just on military go to pakistan government this is an economist article well madam part we have to take

a short break now but we will be back in just a few moments stay chant. when lawmakers manufacture consent to step into public wealth. when the running closest protect themselves. with the financial merry go round lifts only the one percent. that's not doing or middle of the room sick. doing the real need for.

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come back to worlds apart but again there are a bonnie our form of foreign minister of pakistan. just before the break are you were talking about. tries to pakistan has been trying to take in battling terrorism and it doesn't seem to be noticed all that well because pakistan has just been put on their graves least of nations with inadequate terrorist financing and money laundering controls now it was also done the urging of of the united states so you can perhaps accuse it of having political motivations of putting pressure on on your country but this is not the first time that it happened when you were in the office your country was actually blacklisted i wonder how damaging your thing it's going to be to the country's economy because obviously it's an affront to national reputation but. does it actually bring any harm to your

balance sheets to the way you do business. you see of course there will be negative consequences ok in terms of people's perception possible investors perception of pakistan perhaps have in impact on the possible foreign date and this man that we come into pakistan but you know well and i think the world also saw it well enough that this was more than the reality on the ground it was being led as in means to put diplomatic pressure on pakistan and i think this is bad strategy this is simply a bad strategy because pakistan happens to be an important country but in the region and in for anything the failed strategy of the united states is to try and put more pressure on pakistan instead of trying to engage with pakistan as a sovereign country as a country which has deep abiding interest for peace and stability within the region which far exceed the interest of any other country including the united states of america because whatever happens in the sun has a drive a wrecked immediate impact on pakistan the border as poorest as it is everything

apparently as you know for instance t.t.p. that we could i live in pakistan which is good butchered children in pakistan by who are by hundreds is enjoying safe haven in the understand however pakistan doesn't go and try and blame game and embarrassed america on that almost or understand on what is being done so when we saw a president a stroke when he talking about the responsibility of the state has to make sure its territory is not used against the other the same goes for each one of us when president bush or when he would be in much more credibility if he were to together with americans be able to ensure that history is not being used to secure and give ample space open space to terrorists who are killing children in pakistan so you know this game can go on endlessly i'm just very shocked and embarrassed and just saddened by the fact that instead of everyone coming to terms with the rather

complicated realities on the ground. and getting together getting their heads together to see how they can each one tribute to solving this problem it seems that we are now part of the you know of it of all of this endless blame game of this endless you know mission to try and embarrass the other and to try and you know. just prove that what we did was right and what everybody else is doing is what is causing the problem clearly there's a problem on the ground clearly everybody can get together and solve it better than everybody accusing each other we have talked about the at the at the issues that pakistan has on its. western border but you also have issues on your border with india just the other day there was a major exchange of have a fire claiming both military and civilian lives how serious is this rat of this latest violent episode growing into something bigger you see if you are saying the other day today front page news in pakistan newspapers has pictures of truth but

based on the soldiers who have lost lives in the sea to indian fighting and also peace remember with that that unlike pakistan who does not do it a state policy no one less than the indian army chief has made mr robert has made p.m.'s that this is now going to be their policy that they will use it in the sea to try and put a lot of what he calls you know give pakistan a lot of stress and this is ridiculous and this is unfortunately not the behavior of major states let alone the state which is why and to be a member of the security council because movies india you must understand has changed so the secular india if you all used to seeing in the last few decades india that we consider to be a shining india because of its secularism because of its growth etc movie has brought in a completely different complection to what india is to did that is street lynching this trip of him in a street statecraft within kashmir there pellet guns used to blind young children

within. so with that type of an india it's very difficult to try and engage i understand that they did the difficulty but i'm sure you know that there are similar accusations on the indian part as well as just a moment ago you try to call for reconciliation every conciliation and then voiding blame game so let's perhaps practice a little bit of that because their ideas calls for richer abuse in india ranging from stripping pakistan of the most favorite nation status to banning pakistani artist in bollywood i know that when you were in office you actually called forced stronger ties for better ties between india and pakistan and it looks like you have major doubts if could be achieved under the current leadership i want to though if you see the problem only in the indian government or if you believe that the pakistani authorities may also not be responding in the most. friendly and peace

conducive manner the truth is that both the states have historically use each other and then them against each other to define their identity and that's the bitter truth we tried but we were in government to steer away from blaming india for all the wars of pakistan from looking the other way when india was even on the wrong and seeing let's build the let's have creators crossing the border rather than terrorists let's try and build some trust so that we can move forward and then in that effort images of major. concern of india of pakistan not giving in and with and status we have to give doesn't approval for that and we increased the number of items that could be created in there to normalize relations i believe that the still the way to go because you need need solving is certainly the elephant in the room but you cannot saltfish need until you have normalization of

ties between india and pakistan i'm a believer. in that i will continue to give believe in that there's a movie on the other side or a mormon thing or any other leader however i'm just trying to explain the context where it becomes very difficult to give peace a virtuous towards the other side when you have the leader on the other side who would rather be. who would choose not to be a statesman and who would define himself as a hindu through a leader and not in india in league or even with this movie i would say that pakistan needs to show its as a completely different animal than the current indian policy and pakistan must stand fast of the stay on the track of peace and dialogue dialogue and more dialogue i remember when the same thing happened when it was the commish is that up to during our time i was on the floor of the un at that time having a security council conference because we were elected and elected member of the security council during our times and from there i sent a message to the indians from the floor of the un that this cannot be solved by

acquisitions and counter-accusations threats and counter threats i invite my indian counterpart to engage in dialogue at any level of his choosing at the level of the foreign minister i am still is we are still and pakistan of the same mind and when i say we i mean everyone in pakistan because in pakistan i think we understand that we are also citizens of this region and this region has to prosper together it has to develop together peace look around all over the world all regions have developed together you cannot have a single country shining in the midst of all with the end hunger and terrorism it doesn't happen like that so we need to change what we require if you me is for people for leaders to want to be statesman rather than care about their water going to come from but i think the irony i mean we all understand that but they are any it is also always i think far more difficult to develop good neighborly ties with your immediate neighbors than perhaps some countries across the world i know that you are a strong believer that regional players may have. greater ability to propose

a solution barry anted approach for many of their regional issues but when you when you have so many mutual grievances some of them you just laid out in this interview do you believe that have why do you believe having all those leaders they tend to be predominantly ma'am why do you believe that having them sitting around the table can actually produce anything productive rather than mutual become a nation speech have been going on for years if not decades ok i believe that because i've been a practitioner of foreign policy i believe that because in the time that we were in government the markedly improved ties with india and i believe that because i believe that this region is an exception in not being able to move from the past move away from the past every country has. has a history of perhaps why isn't perhaps territorial disputes with other countries or with the world ok but you have to first of all make

a choice do you want to be hostage do you do want to be held hostage to the past and let the past define the present in the future or do you want to break away from the past and lessons from history and make if you choose which is different than your past because our past is not good the pastor says region this terrible it is based on him you know i always use the example for instance let's assume that if india and pakistan started it with a basket of problems that they inherited from the you know from the colonial masters or during their independence from the british which included kashmir and perhaps the creek after that did we add to that basket of problems of the beauty moved things from that but basket of problems and i would argue that we added to that basket of problems but i think india led to it bargain pakistan led to it and many many things henceforth some to express some people will argue the member is you know so all of these are things that he did in the recent history these are contemporary things that it's contemporary enough so it instead of statesman

removing things from the by. asked in saying let's move forward let's create the environment to move forward we're actually getting to the basket and there are obviously elements within both to increase which benefit from this of you know and the more city building building putting them in as the enemy and constantly living in this enmity are we forgetting that this region was the among the highest in with the poor anywhere in the world is our first commitment not supposed to be to those who are the citizens of both pakistan and india or is our first commitment supposed to be to the evils of the two countries i think it's time to keep that hugo's aside really and if in seventy years unfortunately that is what saddens me that in we have and we had a seventy years of not managing these relations very well now we seem it seems especially because of the trend that india has taken i repeatedly say this because i do see a change in pakistan i said with utmost honesty and i stayed with it with of course responsibility because in pakistan for instance we are going to be going to elections in the next three months or four months india bashing is not going to be

an election issue however you look at any election in india a stitch election look at people like shashi tharoor who will be academics great scholars etc but women when it comes to pakistan their opinion will be no different than in the in the. person because it is to hit india sorry pakistan in india and in the same we have to some elements within pakistan that peace to hit . india as much well madam higher would only add that there are good examples of defying the. chant of historical animosity and the russian pakistani relationship is one of such examples a few decades ago we consider that other anime's nowadays there is very intensive diplomacy between our countries there is some military cooperation and honorary consul was appointed by russia in the city of peshawar just the other day so you can turn that trying to find a message around the eve of course you put your mind and heart to it anyway i have

to. thank you for your participation in our show today it's my job or yours please keep the conversation going in our social media pages as for me hope to see her again same place same time here on the worlds apart. all. bottom. line. about your sudden passing i've only just learned you worry yourself and taken your

last wrong turn. your attitude up to you as we all knew it would i tell you i'm sorry i could so i write these last words in hopes to put to rest these things that i never got off my chest. i remember when we first met my life turned on each breath. but then my feeling started to change you talked about war like it was a cave still some more fun to feel those that didn't like to question our arc and i secretly promised to never be like it said one does not leave a funeral the same as one enters the mind it's consumed with death this one quite different i speak to you now because there are no other takers. to claim that mainstream media has met its maker. fifty years ago pregnant women to conjure gun as a sleeping pill does this we don't need him because we are two of those who share

this thought. signed a fake sweat terrible but not on the road this is shown in dutch one troubled by movie here not that we want them to come up across europe victims are starting legal battles demanding at least some compensation in something two ways festool the physical damage itself as well the constant reminder that the people who actually perpetrated this crime has never been able to justice and there's been a couple. who join me every thursday on the alex salmond chill and i'll be speaking to us from the world of politics sports business i'm show business i'll see you then. apply for many clubs over the years so i know the game inside guides. football

isn't only about what happens on the pitch for the final school it's about the passion from the fans it's the age of the super money just kill you narrowness and spending thirty to twenty million on one player. book it's an experience like nothing else on here because i want to share what i think of what i know about the beautiful guy great so will more chance for. the base. that's. right you're going to. show.

that. in the stories that shaped the week here on our junior national a cold war frenzy grips the mainstream media after president putin unveils russia's new strategic arsenal in his annual state of the nation address. the white house and the country learning of that new threat from russian president warning he's risen and in the west in particular to mess with russia and he says he's not bluffing. poles in italy's general election have closed after a bitter campaign over immigration and jobs have been nervously awaiting what could be a game changing result we bring you projected results coming up also. civilians continue to come under heavy shelling in syria's eastern corridor one week after he commanded turn corder was set up at.