so this business has grown as trade volumes have grown and as we've seen trade liberalization so those are forces that are very difficult to combat the downside of globalization with us to two features one is with global markets trade routes to just very quickly in the event of interruption so we're also seeing now the diversion of a lot of the scrap to markets in other markets in southeast asia we're seeing a huge spike in malaysia importing vietnam importing and then we don't know what happens to it we almost have a clear idea about china than we do about those countries for now and we don't know to what extent they can use the scrap but i think there is i think there's a lot to be said for the producing country to really take responsibility for its waste to clean up and use as much of it at home but if it's going to be exported to ensure that what's being exported is of high quality as the scrap industry is

planning or trying to do the harder question is what do you do with conditions in the importing country plastic recycling in particular is very dangerous you know as always prepare for this program i came across the data suggesting that china and the united states roughly produce the same amount of waste around two hundred million tonnes annually and that despite the united states having four times. less our population than that of china so in a way i wonder if this globalization patterns allows the biggest producer of waste per capita in the world a little bit off the hook because i mean if you can ship it to another country then the incentive of taking care of it is i would assume is is much lower when a lot of people are talking about this as really maybe another incentive to start looking seriously at ways prevention reducing our use of plastics coming up with alternatives i think this case in combination with the pollution plastic pollution in the oceans which is. becoming such

a serious issue is really giving us an impetus to organizations and municipalities and other entities who really want to foster what's called the closed loop the way that you can either reduce production so the plastics or plastics we produce we can handle or to make sure that as much recycling reuse happens at different stages in the production chain not just at the consumer end or at the end of the production process that professional you mentioned that after the chinese decision was announced we've seen some spike in parts from other countries in east asia. i understand that there is a very early days but i wonder if there is any indication if this problem is being sold by just redirecting the sort of their routes off of the waste or whether there is indeed any changes in the way western countries a dealing with the problem domestically. the concern is that yes diversion is

happening in the short term hoping that that will be a short to medium term problem but you're seeing is seeing some shifts now as i mentioned people are starting to think about how for instance to solve the issue in . the united states there was some reporting a couple of weeks ago that actually the chinese companies themselves are coming to the u.s. to check out possible venues for recycling facilities themselves so which is sort of an irony in all of this story but definitely a possibility but yeah we're seeing diversion we're also seeing california west coast ports also seeing a huge pile up of waste much of which and plastics scrap which much of which will be sent to landfill would be my guess so we're definitely trying to come up with both medium to long term solutions. we'll have to see how that goes well professor

neal we have to take a very short break now but we'll be back in just a few moments to take and. geysers financial survival. when customers go buy your stuff. then else will reduce and lower. that's undercutting but what's good for market is not good for the global economy. is a. church secret indeed just like priests accused of sexually abusing children can get away with it would literally like to call this to do graphic solution so what the bush admin's to do then he finds out that the priest is is

a perpetrator is simply moves him to a different spot were the previous standards not the highest ranks of the catholic church conceal the accused priests from the police and justice system to that is as old as the i intend them to include at tuesday's doubt until you. are. welcome back to worlds apart with kate o'neil associate professor in the department of environmental science policy and management at the university of california berkeley professor neil just before the break we were talking about recycling having. absent

a better reputation it deserves now in china ration another form of waste management traditionally has a very very bad reputation is it justified you know that is one of the the million dollar questions probably billion dollar questions in the waste management at the moment incineration yes historically very bad reputation and rightly so in this country in particular it's associated with a disability inside situated around poor communities minority communities with a lot of very adverse health effects and i think there's still a lot of concern about the technology where it's shifted right now and the reason it's really getting back. in fashion globally well for two reasons one to deal with the waste that we have and second of course the connection to combating climate change so there's a lot of people who argue that waste to energy and center ration is

a way to. reduce our emissions and avoid the use of fossil fuels. a lot of difference of opinion on the now correct me if i'm wrong but from what i understand there has been a major technological leap as far as the writer plans are concerned they are polluting much less at least the latest generation of that technology there are some countries like sweden for example have managed to essentially use them as a substitute for power plants and use that all that energy to heat their homes and yet i think accepting the idea of incineration being not only every nubile energy source but also a legitimate way of dealing with all that waste i think it comes very. very it doesn't come easy to the environmental community i wonder why oh well for one thing just to look at sweden sweden i mean it has a spectacular record it gets rid of ninety nine percent of the. consumer

minnesota waste and it is at the point where it's importing waste from nearby countries so that it can keep feeding its incinerators sweden is very much the exception in this world and maybe it would be nice if it wasn't but incineration like a lot of other big technologies depends on the context in which it is established is there adequate infrastructure to keep it running if it breaks down want to because i know that for instance china does have a lot of incinerators but it's been very hard to maintain them from reports that i've read to maintain the temperatures they need to be at void polluting so there's a lot of issues and i was hearing that the russian government is planning on building a system of incineration around moscow that unfortunately would while it would deal with some ways doesn't even come close to dealing with the full amount and so that

raises the question of well when you're dealing with a lot of waste how many incinerate is a you really going to need to solve the problem and to generate enough significant energy to make that investment worthwhile well you're actually again leading me to my next question because if we focus on russia i think it's an interesting case in the sense of being terra incognita both as far as recycling is concerned and as far as incineration it is concerned because we basically deal with our ways by just signing it to landfills and if you had to advise the russian government. we each route to proceed i'm sure you would say both but even if you consider all the process and cause the environmental effect of the landfills as well as the real need to process all the ways that has been accumulated in this country over decades . which would you prefer or if a speech what do you prioritize yes russia is just. a fascinating case that's

different from any of the other countries i really read about in terms of of its space technically and i think also the legacy of the communist era has left i'm assuming a lot of of legacy waste as well i was familiar about quite a while ago twenty years ago with the nuclear waste situation in russia we have a lot of cleanup to do so that's part of that and you know municipal solid waste is i think really. the first target in the sense of sort of the low hanging fruit and from again from what i read nearly a huge proportion of that is produced in moscow so you're looking at at moscow level solutions. again recycling and reuse i would you know working on those systems i'm assuming again from my understanding of the soviet era that there was much more of a culture of use and not throwing things away that i think

a society that emerged out of that tends to reject so it's a matter of moving back to that i think that one of the easiest recycling programs to do is composting food waste is very decomposed decomposable and can be used as compost landfills or incineration it's a it's a tough one i would go for. well at the end of the day russia is the largest country by territory but i think many of our landfills are approaching. capacity limits and i think even you know even if you have a large territory it's probably not a very good idea to turn it into a huge dump site can i bring your but can you bring it back to the recycling question because there is a lot of pressure including western pressure to russia to proceed through then there has been a number of waste storage in ink experiments in large urban communities in russia for the most part they. haven't been very effective and i guess you can put it on

the culture you can also put it on their way not very efficient way and probably overly broad critize way arminius apologies work and i'm not suggesting that the ocean be a warning about but i'm a little bit concerned that if you wait for that change in culture it may take decades not years but actually decades and i wonder if sticking strictly to recycling may make more damage to the environment well let me just say what the landfill suggestion i was making is that there are ways of running sanitary landfills we have got landfills here in the us that have closed down that were huge and are used for gas collection again. landfill gas is also significant source of energy and cleaner than than actually incinerating the waste oh as far as educating for recycling i think that's a huge problem there might be ways of making recycling easier for people we use in

some cities here we use what's called single stream recycling where a lot of the recycling goes into the same bin and then assorted elsewhere that is sort of an easy introduction to the idea of recycling but it does require a lot of investment and attention at the sorting and cleaning stage of the process again that's quite a big investment it's it's tough. that's the other place that where we work and educate people from an early age but even here people get discouraged again europe does a a lot better there's a lot more acceptance of a culture of recycling and sorting and cleaning your waste and i think that has to do in part with the awareness that there is very little space there for. dealing with waste in other ways well i think this is a highly controversial subject. we have it in the mosque or read. and with lots and

lots of landfills nearing maximum capacity in meeting poisonous gases but once their thirty's came up with the plan of building an incinerator there the environmental community immediately got up in arms. as the people people took to the streets genuinely believing that the corrupt authorities big business out to make huge money out of turning that into yet another environmental disaster and i wonder what do you think is more irresponsible in this case going again as the people's wishes are not doing anything about the landfills. again this is why we export. out of our way we would have the same issue and i think that. you know the citizen protest is also here in china not necessarily directly over the foreign garbage but over the siting of a lot of industrial facilities and honestly the beijing government i think one of

the reasons it's implemented this crackdown is that it's very concerned about its political legitimacy at home but also in the eyes of the international community i think the russian government should be concerned or maybe the moscow government from my research into the history of waste management is that waste left piled in streets will bring governments down it is one of those direct connections whether i mean i'm not saying that is necessarily the case but it does lead to a lot of civic disruption beirut in lebanon has been having ongoing issues with that but the rivers of waste in the streets. so how. when i advise the government to proceed it would be probably and this sounds like a bit of a cop out but the multiple solutions duction. trying to implement recycling. one thing that's working in

a country city is a lot of cities in brazil for instance that have a lot of industry is. you know i'm not sure if this community exists in moscow i suspect the winter weather makes this a little hard but communities of waste pickers people who go through and gather waste informally and sell it they've been movements to sort of incorporate these people more formally into systems of governance and whiskey lection and cities but you know that's that's again depends on those people being there and available to do that work i think our problem is not so much waste collection as much as waste management what you actually do with the waste once it's collected and there wasn't an interesting study by the european environmental agency in two thousand and sixteen which found that the top recycling performing countries in europe at least also happened to be the ones with the highest penetration often center of the day i

guess you would pursue both of those routes but it would require russia to have the kind of technology the kind of experience that it not necessarily does not necessarily have at this point from what you know how much do the current tangents between russia and the west a faggot the environmental projects. see won't again going back to the reading i've been doing in the last couple of days unlike many countries the russian government has been highly resistant as far as i can tell to foreign direct investment from overseas waste companies and that actually should possibly be something that would need to be changed i think that foreigners. investment in a lot of other countries from the big ways companies which are mostly european or u.s. based has been the way that they have obtained the technology whether be incineration or specialized landfill or other forms of recovery to make waste management easier and under the current situation yeah i'm sure that's one of the pieces of the

puzzle that's the that's difficult to fit well professor neal it's been there fascinating conversation thank you very much for your time and to our viewers please keep it going on our social media pages as for me i hope to see you again same place same time here on the walls apart. hey everybody i'm stephen bob taft hollywood guy you suspect every proud american first of all i'm just george bush and r.v. . this is my buddy famous financial guru well she's

a little bit different. though no one knows up with all the drama happening in our country i'm rude have fun meet everyday americans. and hopefully start to bridge the gap this is the great american people.

russia holds talks on a second group of militants leaving the syrian rebel on paper the eastern go to opt for a first group who left the area on friday. a former police officer in north carolina faces jail time over a brutal assault of a black man accused of jaywalking offer a video of the incident is me. on the global high pay for meeting. between donald trump and cable jungle and maybe helping prime it sure with conflicting messages now coming from the white house. for the latest on these stories head to our dot com at the top of the hour rory sushi will be here with a full news bulletin but for now stay with us for going underground on chemical

weapons attacks in syria and if you're watching us in the u.k. our island veteran broadcaster gordon burns is the guest once but. time after time say we're going underground in a week where the boss of britain's foreign affairs select committee has countenance the banning of this t.v. station in the united kingdom coming over the show another syrian government chemical attack in ghouta this week even as defacto rebel commander saudi crown prince mohammed bin solomon was lunching with the queen or just war propaganda we speak to talk chemical weapons expert mit's professor theodore postol and forty eight hours ahead of the u.n. security council meeting on syria and his u.k. media ignores the ongoing battle for and the founder of the u.s.

institute for public accuracy norman solomon tells us of tragic in the media complicity in a war that has killed or displaced millions plus from the headlines we consider a toxic allegations against moscow and how some women have been starving themselves out of britain dollars and more coming over today is going underground first let's go straight to britain's labor leader jeremy called and current favorite to replace theresa may as prime minister of this week's visit to britain by a certain saudi prince the prime minister is due to meet crown prince mohammed bin solomon the ruler of saudi arabia despite much talk of reform there's been a sharp increase in. in the arrest and detention of dissidents torture of prisoners is common human rights defenders routinely sentenced to lengthy prison terms unfair trials and executions are widespread as amnesty international confirms as she makes her arms sales pitch will she also call on the crown prince to hold the shocking

abuse of human rights in saudi arabia according to teresa mayes audi arabia is actually saving lives labor that ventures from such entry positions shouting shame can i just say to those but anxious that the link that we have with saudi arabia is historic it is an important one i do to say it has saved the lives of potentially hundreds of people. but has saudi arabia saved hundreds and britain corbet and said there was a secret report on saudi involvement in terror here in the u.k. the government is of course still suppressing a report into the funding of extremism which allegedly found evidence of saudi funding going to terrorist groups here in the u.k. thus threatening our security when will that report come out theresa may said it couldn't be published it would reply that corwin's home secretary anyway had the

report but corbin wanted answers on other questions to a humanitarian disaster is now taking place in yemen million his face starvation six hundred thousand children have cholera because of the saudi led bombing campaign and the block a. six hundred thousand children with cholera is something that i think everyone in this house should take seriously. germany has suspended arms sales to saudi arabia but british arms sales of sharply increased and british military advisers are directing the wall it cannot be right that her government. this is cannot be right that her government is true looting in what the united nations sais is evidence of war crimes drazen may said britain was giving aid and in gauger it worked and then appeared to argue that the real problem called injured address was his own shadow foreign secretary emily thornberry he seems to be

a top within hours with the shadow foreign secretary once again this morning said the arms industry is not something i'm seeking to undermine as long as it's within international norm and went on to say that she thought the u.k. can sell arms to any country as long as a use within the law mind you thornberry has slammed this week's visit it was in marked contrast to a previous de facto pro saudi statements on syria she has been quick to imply that syria used chemical weapons against so-called rebels seeking regime change in damascus and as the saudi prince lunched with the british queen then we have two more reports of syrian government chemical attacks there was soon discounted even in mainstream media those chemical weapons attacks allegations more generally and they are routinely broadcast as fact on media and nato nations joining me now is professor emeritus of science technology and international security at the massachusetts institute of technology theodore postol who has cast doubt on media

certainty about syrian government chemical attacks on can shake and in the suburbs of damascus professor thanks so much for coming on going underground even this week as as the queen was welcoming the prince from saudi arabia the mainstream state mandated b.b.c. corrected or appeared to correct a suspected report of a suspected chemical attack in ghouta in the suburbs of damascus people finally starting to apply more scrutiny to these media reports of chemical attacks it's extraordinary how inaccurate reporting has been. i should say before i say any more i am a big advocate for the press and its role. and you know our democracies and i'm totally in despair over the way the press in the west as behaved in the united states and i have to say also the u.k. you must surely welcome know that your defense secretary mattis is admission that there is no evidence off sarin gas used by the syrian army i think.

general mattis is a man of great intelligence and integrity and he's in a difficult position he's working for a president that is not always as. carefully thought out as general mattis is but i take his comments to indicate that he understands that there is no primary information about this attack from actually u.s. intelligence or other national intelligence sources you're questioning donald trump's reaction to these things because it was his national security adviser general mike monster who often absa confidence in a chemical attack that was belatedly used as a justification for a tomahawk cruise missile attack on syria well i think you may be referring to this . extremely unprofessional note that was issued but that was claimed to be

some kind of white house intelligence report issued on april eleventh the u.s. attacked. air base on april seventh and i need to level the supposedly the national security council released this intelligence report that you could see as you read it that it was amateurish and that the people who wrote it were not even knowledgeable enough to fake the intelligence report it was really remarkable suddenly politicians here jeremy coleman's labor party and members of parliament that learn the government here routinely say that there indeed have been chemical attacks of course the pulitzer prize winning journalist says. used some of your information what do you think they're not interested in or are presented on c.n.n. and the b.b.c. here in britain in the work of an emeritus professor from mit in the recent past i think when i have done work that tends to have findings that support the ongoing

rhetoric. tends to get covered and that's just not covered when and when it raises questions about the ongoing rhetoric i had this issue in two thousand and thirteen this came up quite dramatically with the new york times i was working on this question of the mass nerve agent attack that occurred in ghouta on aug twenty one two thousand and thirteen that was a real attack i mean we don't know how many people were killed and injured but we do know it was real attack and. my colleague richard lloyd and i were studying the debris from you know that it was photographed or videotaped and we all of a sudden realized that the munition had delivered the saron was completely different from what everybody including the new york times thought it was the new york times picked up our analysis and published it immediately and the analysis basically

showed that the munition carried maybe fifty leaders five zero leaders of sarin then after that story was covered we started analyzing the characteristics of the munition new york times claimed that they had clung lines that they had constructed and they could show that the munitions had been launched from some some syrian base military base about sixteen or seventeen kilometers from guta well inside government controlled them ask us. into into good and we showed the range of the munition could not possibly be more than two kilometers but we couldn't get the new york times to cover that at all they can then houghton finally they published a small article in a lower and lower page a back page eight report.