hello and welcome to crossfire where all things are considered i'm peter lavelle fifteen years ago this month the united states and its so-called coalition of the willing to illegally invaded in occupied iraq american troops remain there to this day and iraq continues to grapple with that fateful decision many call the invasion of iraq a blunder shouldn't we call it what it really is a crime. cross talking about fifteen years on i'm joined by my guest ken o'keefe in calgary he is a political analyst and an ex u.s. marine who renounced us citizenship in washington we have chris turney why he is a former army military police sergeant iraq war veteran and contributor to the hill and into iran we have mohammad marandi he's an associate professor at the university of toronto right jim across the rules in effect that means he can jump in anytime you want i always appreciate before we get started here i'd like to

refresh everybody's memory of what happened fifteen years ago preceding the war and also because the mainstream media is largely ignoring this fifteen year. because it's certainly not an anniversary here let me read a few things here i believe demolishing hussein's military power and liberating iraq would be a cakewalk that whiskey adelman the conflict could last six days six weeks i doubt six months donald rumsfeld. we will be greeted as liberators dick cheney a year from now i wouldn't be surprised that there's some grand square in baghdad named after president bush richard perle iraq will not require sustain aid mitch daniels and lastly but really importantly we're dealing with a country that can really finance its own reconstruction and relatively soon paul wolfowitz all right you know ken let me go to you first here i mean what is been learned from this fiasco for everybody involved. and why isn't it being

commemorated and remember it seems like it's intentionally being blocked out go ahead ken well let's remember the twenty two american service members a day that are committing suicide because they were sent off to fight an illegal immoral war that was based on a pack of lies and ultimately what we've learned is that international law is not functioning because of all the things we were told about adolph hitler apparently according to the nuremberg principles the supreme crime that he committed was war of aggression because all the other crimes torture mass murder crimes against humanity all of those stem from war of aggression so only when tony blair and george bush and a whole host of others including rumsfeld and cheney are sitting in a jail cell for the rest of their lives can we begin to think that this world is turned from the better until such time apparently we haven't learned much because this crime that we have committed is one of the greatest crimes of the twenty first century and i personally having been to iraq and having visited baghdad and met the orphans that are there are millions of orphans millions of refugees probably close

to two million dead at least a million dead the country is still wreaking havoc over its entire system has been destroyed infrastructure wise all of this is one of the major crimes of the twenty first century and nobody in any position of power has suffered the consequences which tells me that international law is not functioning and that means that we must change that circumstance and people need to be put in jail for life ok chris to you you were i interact or a veteran here i mean when i look at a lot of the people that were the architects of this war i mean some of these people are in the trumpet ministration now and so can already brought up the issue of accountability mean this is a catastrophe of a most unbelievable magnitude in not only these architects but people in the media that cheered on this war like they cheer on so many other foreign adventures how do you reflect upon that christopher you were there go ahead. i was it's hard to

believe how much time has gone by it's been a very very long time i remember i was nineteen years old coming into to theater in kuwait then through iraq and i remember it's very personal many of the veterans i served with have lost legs lost eyes it's been very personal so i actually appreciate ken's perspective on the v.a. what veterans are dealing with out there and how to admit that some of the arrogance that came out of the. the sort of tone and tenor of some bush folks back that about the ease of it it's been very personal for me but i do want to push back a little bit in the sense of this notion that it's illegal or the illegality if we look back at u.n. security resolution stating back to one nine hundred ninety and forward the security resolutions that were passed to give to compel iraq to comply with with weapons inspections and to to to give that authorization and if you look back i mean seventy percent of americans gallup poll the united states congress many of the people and i would ask ken if you would agree were you know hillary clinton joe

biden u.s. lawmakers that voted for that war. and that use of force so i think we have to look back at the time where people's minds were at in the post nine eleven environment and i would point to those international security resolutions well as the authorization that that was cited for the invasion well you know christer there's a there are other countries in the world that don't abide by united nations security council resolutions israel is a prime example ok let me go to mohammed here i think it is patently obvious that the war was illegal because there was no united nations security council resolution ok and because and i would be willing to admit that if iraq did not fulfill probably every single resolution but that's not a cause for war ok go ahead moment. i think it's even worse than that first of all i i think it was whether even if the u.n. security council had voted for them to launch this war it still would have been

illegal the united states was the regime that created the monster saddam hussein they helped create the war machine that saddam hussein used and bake wait for example and to invade iran the united states and its european allies the so-called civilized world they gave saddam hussein chemical weapons they used chemical weapons the iraqis with the support of the united states how it should the city of the kurdish city in northern iraq almost in there almost seven thousand people were killed six thousand eight hundred i believe as a result of chemical weapons for the hussein use with the support of the west i personally survive to chemical attacks so these were crimes against humanity that the united states bears as much responsibility as saddam hussein after that when the united states imposed sanctions on the iraqi people after the defeat of the saddam forces in kuwait

a million people were killed that i met and madeline albright back then said it was a price worth paying one million children died as a result and also after iraq was defeated in kuwait the iraqis rose up and they were about to overthrow the regime and then the united states allowed the regime to use its helicopters to massacre iraq is both in the north and the south of the country spoke scowcroft and people like hoss they were saying that the regime must stay in place because it's overthrow may benefit iran so the united states that saddam hussein well our all these years they have they're no more of a day today certainly are not any war and the war was based on lies right they clearly. certainly the chemical weapons the nuclear weapons. to the yellowcake from niger all that evidence and the reason why americans that what it was because the corporate media own media like the b.b.c.

they're all because they were lied to locate will go ahead jump in there ken because it that this is my mantra all the time about this because you have the media is just first for power and again and one of the things i want to make this program is that we're seeing it all over again we saw it with syria we were seeing it with. iran this being targeted i know it's the same techniques it's the same people doing it go ahead can and it's the same people in charge and if we want to learn something that the audience wants to learn something then let's look at oh did you non's a strategy for israel in the one nine hundred eighty s. there is this psychopath that planned for israel to expand and back in the one nine hundred eighty s. saddam hussein was identified as target number one while by the way he was our asset fighting the iranians which brother mohammad knows very well because saddam hussein was used to kill effectively a million iranians which included teenage boys who were who were sent off to the

front who came voluntarily to the front to defend the rand very honorably the only war that iran has been involved in for several centuries ultimately this plan of expanding israel the greater israel project involved not just the taking out of saddam hussein or any other strong arab leadership in the region but also to effectively balkanize the entire region and what we see right now in syria libya and the entire region is that plan a strategy for israel in the one nine hundred eighty s. and this chaos that we see is not an accident and if people really want to learn something here they need to understand that none of this is an accident actually what's happened in iraq is exactly what was intended not only to take out saddam hussein but to break up iraq which we see three different segments we see the same thing happening in syria right now so. if people really want to have an understanding they need to know that those that are in power which are all basically puppets in government who are underneath the bankers who always want war who finance generally all sides of war they have

a major incentive to keep going with war and now you know very well sitting there in russia that we're trying to pick a fight with russia and look at the embarrassing reality of u.k. politics with boris johnson and the prime minister themselves indicted in russia without any evidence whatsoever yeah why because they work for the bankers and another war is on the order of that that's the pattern you know accuse and then you don't need any kind of evidence or chris or let me ask you almost kind of like a personal question i mean a lot has come out about the planning in the and the botched occupation you know the iraqi government i think it was about two weeks ago voted to have all foreign troops removed from iraq but the united states isn't do that i thought you know the united states is trying to get sovereignty to iraq and it doesn't even listen to its own and the the political system that it actually imposed you know shouldn't isn't it time for the u.s. to stop quote unquote helping the iraqis go ahead chris. well i think that i mean for a president bush campaign we were going to have nation building then we had nation

building on steroids i mean but i think it be fair to look back at that but i think the biggest issues with the post with iraq was not so much the the initial invasion but it was all of the post-war activities whether it was the disagreement between the pentagon and the ministration over troop levels decommissioning the iraqi military and all and frankly just the post-war governance i think that's where the problems had if iraq was a flourishing democracy today i think maybe we'd be looking at it differently but i think it's more the way that it turned out that's causing this issues but i do want to say it's a very long complex history i don't disagree at all with the the contradictory foreign policy positions over the last fifty years of the united states in these areas it's i can easily see why you could start with let me jump in here in amman and let me jump in here gentlemen we have to go to a hard break and after that our break we'll continue our discussion on iraq fifteen years on stage with our team.

played for many flips over the years so i know the guy even so i got. the ball isn't only about what happens on the pitch for the final school it's about the passion from the fans it's the age of the super money kill you know spend spend be sure to twenty million on one player. it's an experience like no one else want to because i want to share what i think what i know about the beautiful day. greats of what will transpire. and thinks it's going to. the far right. isn't just on the march it's taking violent my daughter's action

might take years you know you isolate these organizations which usually split into which we. differ how do you view the. complex web of which are. the most expensive fish in the world each one selling for tens of thousands of euros it continues to grow its entire life if it was thirty years old you might have a two ton fish out there and yet they don't get that big today because we're way too good. it's only a much larger mission was once there was much more widely distributed we have politicians that are in office for a few years they have to get reelected everything is very very short term our

system is not suited and is not near the long term survival and that's why we have the catastrophes. welcome back to crossfire all things considered i'm peter lavelle to remind you we're discussing iraq fifteen years on. ok let me go back to mohamed one of the ironies of the of the law of unintended consequences probably my favorite phrase when i look at american foreign policy in the middle east. is that what you know fifteen years on after this i will continue with the illegal invasion and occupation is that. there is a neo cons nightmare because because of that blunder a failure even crime that you have a government in baghdad that doesn't look to washington it looks to turn around so i mean the unintended consequence couldn't be more overstated go ahead moment. i

think the reason for that is that the united states never was looking to create any democracy in iraq just like it's not looking to create democracy anywhere else it's basically in the region to keep its head gemini intact the united states supports saudi arabia the regime that has been exporting wahhabi islam across the world the ideology of isis and al qaida and they have no problem with that in the case of iraq the united states ought to be quit overthrow the country they could scare their own people if you remember that the dossier and the forty five minutes where they knew they were claiming that saddam hussein could you know the stuff they the son in the daily star in england was saying we could be attacked in forty five minutes and then kelly the he revealed the information that this was all nonsense and he also met the committed suicide or

he died somehow all if we recall all these and the younger generation recalls how the united states. prepare the public and put created fear in the west so that they could attack this country was basically through fear through lies they attacked the country they destroyed the country and they were hoping that they could plunder the country they could start exporting iraqi oil and make up for any losses that they had as a result of the tac and the problem is that the iraqi people they were freed from saddam hussein and they did not like the occupation either and they wanted better relations with iran and the very fact that an elected government in iraq wants good relations with iran is something sinful to the americans they say that this is the iranian presence in iraq no it's a it's a order it's normal relations that have been established between two neighboring

countries that the americans cannot tolerate that so i think the whole problem is that the united states how it presents itself to the world is that it's a democracy that it promotes democracy but in reality it is a regime that is only trying to preserve its own interests it is oriental this the culture of the political regime in the united states and in europe the oriental is that's why you vacate the saudis can kill hundreds of thousands of people through starvation and disease in yemen and no one in europe will care no one in europe will be ashamed of the war crimes that their governments are being carried out because they're yemenis you know in that white europeans right you know same is true in libya the same is true in afghanistan and so on you know in kenya you know reflect upon that because because because there is no reflection and taking of responsibility for what has happened in iraq and that assures the same strategy

will be applied again and i'm glad i'm thinking of course all of us are thinking about iran. the same mechanisms are in place the lack of democracy in iran you know they never mention the fact that there is no there is a democracy in iran and it's an islamic democracy it's what the iranian people seem to be content with but they you know saudi arabia the closest ally one of the closest allies of the united states in the middle east has no democracy whatsoever we never hear about that but we will you know iran will be targeted for democracy change you know when they already have it i mean again the american people are so grossly uninformed go ahead ken. you know there's a couple of points that need to be made here one the war crimes and crimes against humanity cannot be overstated in full lucia they are advising women not to have children because we use so much depleted uranium white phosphorus which is a chemical weapon and other experimental weapons that the area is so toxic that the

birth defect rates have gone through the roof child cancers and if you've ever seen the pictures of these depleted uranium babies and you know what the definition of crime against humanity is it is disgusting and criminal beyond description the other point that needs to be made that while saddam hussein was in power there was no al qaeda in iraq in fact saddam hussein would have been the first one to execute anyone who would have been found to be linked to al qaeda and then if we're to believe the official version of history after the occupation we're supposed to believe that this isis creation which is a creation of western intelligence agencies we're supposed to believe that all of a sudden all these humvees and all these american weapons just accidentally fell into the hands of isis which wreaked havoc cutting off heads all over that region all over iraq we're supposed to believe that that was an accident all the while as mohammed is mention and you've just mentioned our best friend and ally in saudi arabia which by the way is an extension of israel saudi arabia the export or of all

of that while hobby doctrine which is the seabed of isis is our best friend and ally so we created the context in which isis was created and isis has wreaked havoc and it was never a popular movement at all every genuine muslim knows damn well that isis is an affront to islam and even in bosnia. yearly basis last year was it reported in the western media at all that there was about twenty million twenty million muslims who protested and demonstrated against isis and were making clear that isis has nothing to do with genuine islam we created that and again i said. that's not an accident the creation of isis is not an accident we know that al-qaeda is the cia database that was not an accident these are the frankenstein's that western intelligence agencies and mossad create in order to justify our policies in the region which are basically to destroy that entire region to balkanize that region so that ultimately

israel can expand you know an american the american government is bought and paid for by israel and it couldn't be more obvious netanyahu has three visits to the us congress where the sickle friends traitors in the us congress sit there and give him twenty nine standing ovation tell twenty nine standing ovations tells you everything about who own the us congress which is nothing but a den of traitors christian reflect upon you know fifteen years on i mean how is the united states. moved forward with its interests in the region because it seems to me that particularly since the end of the cold war just about everything the us does in the middle east backfires blows up in its face and just leaves in its wake chaos i mean. i'm always you know asking the question where is the learning curve because i don't see any of it here and let's say it's intentional as our other guests have said it's just to sow chaos i don't know is that in the interest of the

united states and the american people and spending so much on the military for that go ahead christopher well i think the other problem is the u.s. never gets credit for the good it does i mean that's that's another issue that's perennial is the grass i mean the fact is first of all the u.s. gives israel money not the other way around so if anything it should be the other way around in that particular example but the bottom line is when it comes to because that you are going his own values are about that's why we give them the money can only keep going christopher keep well keep going christmas can't minutes look at the bottom line is in the president's humanity we completely forgot about saddam hussein kidnapping people gassing their own people his son running around. like a total crime family and then in the instance of the idea that iran is some flourishing democracy imagine here in the states at the trump administration had appointees in congress in the judiciary where the entire government it's all the clerics every single branch of government is completely occupied kristopher by their religious leaders no you know i you know i think you're

a good person and i think your heart's in the right place but why is it the responsibility of the united states to be determining what kind of political culture is in a foreign country halfway around the world ok i mean the united states has the highest incarceration level in the world while maybe the us should work on that or it's opiate crisis you know i i don't see the thing is just whole approach little ordination you know it's three hundred twenty million people it's a totally different you list you look at her virtue when things i don't because i think that's that has nothing to do with politics ok you know you that's that and i also this is crosstalk peter you do invite you do invite people to chime in so i'm going to chime in here to try and tell you trying to be iraqi people who've lost a million to two million but millions of orphans i've met orphans in baghdad who lost both parents they have nothing so don't you dare tell me and never mind me don't you dare tell the people of iraq the good that the united states has done

lives have been destroyed what if it was your child who was blown to bits would you say oh well you know they did take out a lot of sir when i write my ways you know interact with the other three through all of us through head office worst crimes can through all of us worse crimes the united states supported saddam hussein so let me don't tell me we care about the rights of the people there christopher reply. well i mean i was i was there in two thousand and three ken i don't know if you were but the bottom line is you know we're building roads were feeding people and i was there and i've seen the real effect of war and provoke a great in two thousand and three. in two thousand and three you were there i was before the invasion and i came back a year later and i forgot you're telling that we built one also that makes killing a million or two million. or have you covered the recchi crime family day hussein and all that you don't touch anything on that see it's always one dimensional the us if it's some point for what i can there are people that want to

run like they have a reason to go ahead we have done that and saddam hussein. we supported saddam hussein through all of his gentlemen to ask the graduate really really not to do we're rapidly running out of time want to go to mohammed into iraq we also forgot about one thousand nine hundred one but go ahead later mohammed. look and in i think the problem is that your guest doesn't recognize that so don was saying again as i said earlier was created with the help of the united states when he gassed his own people he did it he did it with us support he did it with european support the only time this became an issue was after saddam invaded kuwait the united states has no has done no favors to the iraqi people the destruction of iraq for the last forty years was because of the united states as i said and you were alluding to. one thousand nine hundred one in one thousand nine hundred one when the iraqi people after the regime lost its battle in kuwait they rose up against the regime

and the americans prevented saddam hussein from collapsing be allowed him to use is this pipe in the firing. on all or actually gentlemen we have to run out in no time now we have run out of time fascinating topic here many thanks to my guests in calgary washington and in turn around and thanks to our viewers for watching us here see you next time and remember cross talk rules. for a single. day start training very young. eight months of intensive school. reps. and they save lives.

lots of countries in europe to understand that russia is and take a good part of europe and you cannot think about prosperous europe and developing europe for if you if you don't. to see russia being involved in the european proceeds. that russia is royce. has to be taken into confidence on us of course. preserving fearful reality ransoming in our favor people uploading their minds to an apple and they're willing to trade their physical body in exchange for the promise of immortality because remember as we've shifted from the physical to the spiritual i guess you could god we've also lost all values associated with the physical plane they all respect for gravity dollar spag for

a plurality of ethics and now been reinserted in a gravitational list ethical list valueless back you moral turpitude which is now the new reality or heaven as some may call it. well you know the hard thing we've kind of adopted because we were called pirates for so long. i've been there in the small boats next to the harpoon ships and it's standing. on top of. the limo self to be told fish already ninety percent of the darn hot and blown reconnaissance. conduct fifteen scoops seventy five tons trying to do it several times a day with a big fleet you know you get an idea right ocean which. we have to

understand we can all still use to just. be within this the deal going to be around. i'm doing this because i want the future world to future generations to. and enjoy the ocean we have. yeah. thank you. thank you. thank. you.

a gunman in the south of france hijacks a car and take sausages in a supermarket killing three people the terrorists later died in a shootout with police. twenty eight england football fans are arrested in amsterdam during street clashes ahead of a match against the netherlands. police bought a camera footage reveals the moment officers fatally shoot and on armed a black man in california after mistaking his cellphone for a gun.