afghanistan is still struggling to contain their resurgent taliban eighteen years after nato troops went into the country to get rid of the extremist group can't people manage and what can the west do to help well i asked former chief of afghan national intelligence. for sentiment. for direct talks over and over again. for negotiating with a bitter enemy. foreign backers the support for the extremists. acts intelligence chief of afghanistan. welcome to the show it's really great to have you with us mr sell at the latest international conference on afghanistan has been held in neighboring was back east on with more than twenty countries taken part time i wasn't there that make any sense to hold meetings like that without one side

of the conflict present. i think it does make a lot of sense and i'm very glad the taliban were not there they should be treated like a terrorist group the terrorist group should not be invited to an international event the aim of the tascam conference was to endorse support the position of the afghan government in regards to the peace process it was not. aimed to be quit the democratic process with a terrorist group so absence of the taliban is not is not very good it it's a pleasure so they've got a sound peace process is being discussed at several platforms to kabul process conference down the conference and. has offered to host peace talks with the taliban will even more events like this help to bring the taliban to negotiating table does the increasing number of international conferences here downplay the

significance of the talks them selfs. well you are very right down approach has been for ak men to this fragmentation is not because of afghanistan it this fragmentation is is due to the growing mishandle standing between wave. players in the world the stage because there was there hasn't been cohesion on the side of the international community and to be harnessed the very terminology international community has lost it is. unified to meaning and definition so therefore various counties have tried to show they can do something for this globe for this part of the world there are far there has been kabul process a stumble process and now tashi process or a conference at their last sometimes back moscow process but what distinguishes.

the conference from the rest is participation of russia at the highest level foreign minister lavrov was the e.u. . chief or only was was there and that mic gives it a new dimension and we are very pleased that the countries of the region particularly our near neighbors who are voided to send. to the geishas to kabul process will come the tascam conference president donnie offered peace talks with the taliban last month but the taliban called for direct talks with washington instead of kabul if this to go take place to trust americans with afghanistan's future. well we understand why the. taliban want to negotiate directly with foreign countries because they want to lead to to my eyes

their claim that they are not a terrorist group they own afghanistan and i'm very glad. foreign friends are refusing to give them that access and that chance because if they ever i get it to speak to the taliban directly that will downgrade the position of afghan government as a legitimate state the sole representative of afghanistan and the world stage and it will also set of a very bad preset and for for other conflicts cases. mentioned earlier the world has already the has. black holes and it has a structure and their family county negotiates with them on a state actor involved in terror activities directly. the unintended consequences will be that damaging the relative the relative peace

and stability that is there are made to along to it will also boost the morale of all those illegitimate terrorists and insurgents groups who want to undermine the constitutional lot of not i'm so in afghanistan but where so that's not be a good thing to do you have been opposed to making a deal with the taliban for a long time you want them defeated and step but i mean how many more errors will that take if the deal stops bloodshed isn't it worth making. you are absolutely right we are we are suffering there is no doubt our people are suffering the economic development slowdown afghan civilians. are facing the stress and depression and life so there is a thirst for peace and we are ready to pay

a price to achieve peace about who we are not going to sacrifice our dignity on harner to achieve it so therefore they packages out and that is the ball is in the court of the taliban and pakistanis who are supporting terrorism in our region and they can conference clearly showed that the position of afghanistan has legitimacy both domestic and international and if the taliban reject to engage in peace process and if there backer that the pakistanis do not convince them or put pressure on them to engage in the peace process both the taliban and the pakistanis will face fire their isolation the continuity of the of the fighting and war no doubt is is. this costly for us from multiple dimensions and multiple aspects but this situation. is not going to

ensure a bright future part of the pakistanis are far the taleban for the taliban either so our hope is that we do a recalculation and we revisit the overall policies which has kept our region fragmented divide it in gauged in proxy conflict and policies off my manipulation for so many years for so many decades we should learn from from the from other corners of the world where economic cooperation. regional cooperation has risk oot the nations from state to office this depression and backwater that miss misunderstanding and they have braced a better future so why don't we why don't we take ourselves out of the.

nineteen and twentieth century politics and then brace the new live with the new realities so the taliban has to disarm integrate into afghan society that's what you're saying and ok maybe there are and their arms and guns can be taken away but what about their ideology they are not like a regular armed or so insurgency they want to impose a lifestyle on the country how can you make them give that up. well the issue is not the taliban guns or the taliban ideology the issue is to taking one the taliban enjoy safe haven and pakistan so when we put pressure on the taliban fighters their leaders are our way they are not on their pressure they continue to plan. operations provide logistics from beyond beyond our borders so that some matter of concern and the second thing which.

is the taliban is a dogmatic approach on policies if they i agreed to be come part of a poor alist dick so side. they will melt down the she after activists and pressure off a pool or a list excess this group will make them eleventh and a very short span of time that is why both the pakistanis and the taliban understand that if they do not get some hard come sessions which will ensure. ensure their survival as a militant group they will not engage into any peace process so we are not afraid of taliban becoming part of the society because the afghan society as a whole will reject them democratically and the biggest enemy off half of the taliban is not necessarily the nato guns or our political rejection of the taliban

the biggest enemy of the taliban is democracy itself and therefore they will do everything in their power to either undermine it or keep it a taliban ghetto within a democratic process and within a democratic a space so they come survive. president gandhi said that the taliban could be recognized as a political party and welcomed into the political process as part of any potential peace deal why would the taliban need that i mean they are doing well on frontline they are a warrior movement so they really need to sit in parliament. well i do not necessarily argue with the notion that they are doing where they are they are they're living in hell there is no education and they come to road there is no a state system it is all rule of political but the.

networks it's some people say it's a medieval rule at least in the medieval times if we have nothing there was poetry . or something but in the talabani areas except except terror except economy based on poppy trafficking except torture of the dissidents except a silent population like a graveyard i don't think we should call that they are doing well no they're not doing well it's it's life like in him. i spoke to chief executive of afghanistan. and he told me that the taliban cannot win the war by military means yet they are now threatening seventy percent of the country's territory and they're having success after success militarily at least is it right to be so sure they won't win well they are doing they are doing

a spectacular urban attacks no doubt because the co so many civilians in these. car bombs are suicide attacks and they dominate the news and then they cause pain but that doesn't look military victory that that's terrorism the fact that they have not been able to create a quote unquote come trolled zones for themselves inside afghanistan so they want to bring the pain to the cities to show the exist in the scene to show they are and. to kitty it does. content amongst the minds of the civilian population the government saying you our government cannot protect you but far the tala. to be able to undo their chief moments of the last sixteen years and over. time really that's about

a wildfire. all right mr sal i wouldn't take a short break right now and where we're back will continue talking to you i'm a farmer had of afghan intelligence about what needs to be done until end of the war in afghanistan stay with us. when lawmakers manufacture them sentenced to the public wells. when the ruling classes protect themselves. with the final merry go round the certainly the one percent. nine

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know all of this jazz feel are. a city of climatic contrast to fish alligators on the loose of poverty and crime is my least twelve members of my family close most. of street racing in that piece of the night this is new orleans. the best place in the world. and we're back with former spy chief of afghanistan on a roll us talking about the international aspects of afghan war mr salim why is it

that the afghan army trained and equipped by the best militaries in the world having a hard time destroying the taliban the afghan army we are talking about is not sixteen years old. that some meth americans got basie on a stack in iraq and the work of building a security industry to shands for afghanistan was abandoned for another six eight years in that mean time however they never acknowledge that we are totally busy with iraq so actually they. robust to work to strengthen our forces they started in late two thousand in late two thousand and nine and from two thousand and three to two thousand and ten almost we were we were. brushed under the under the carpet so and that is the period when the taliban

reemerge if an insurgent our terrorist group enjoys foreign sanctuary no matter how much military pressure you put on them they will be in the one way or another to really hibernate themselves and come back and it will be like cutting the grass and not taken the roots out so the root saw and the pakistani matter are religious and for us that act which continuously produces these terrorists and send them send them to us it is in their interest of russia and the countries in central asia almost to to forget the american agenda here and also join forces with us to defeat this phenomena if afghanistan got for a forbidden is dominated by this. district clerical

movement called taliban with the roots and. my process and pakistan's karachi and lahore and push our their next step us. the us did in the ninety's would be to export. proton ideology to central asia and thus directly to return russia so i think we should not the new narrative which suits short term interests were just to say america is failing here no if this thing doesn't go well we will all fail and we should not be happy to fail collectively so you're saying that pakistani intelligence provide support for the taliban what exactly can be done to make pakistan cut their ties to them. i think the pakistanis have. you know a set of interests. which they believe they cannot achieve those goals

through engaging the state to a state dialogue so they find a proxy battles backing radical terrorist groups as part of their interest there is a belief in pakistan that the country has to deter him so one deterrence is a nuclear bomb bomb the other says radical groups which are expendable and pakistan uses these groups to promote its centrist and expand its influence and a. bizarre way in the region so when we are saying that what it takes to what it takes to convents the pakistanis to stop this it means we want to do we want to undo at least fifty years of very solid time a strict way of thinking on contact and pakistan. support for radical

groups from pakistan to stop that not after nine eleven but it started before the seventy's pakistan was used to counter the influence of the soviet union just tell me is pakistan in control of the taliban or is it just supporting them with bases and materials can islam about really tell the taliban what to do absolutely we are if we look at the structure of the taliban we are talking about a group with the layer structure they expend about taliban who get killed like flies they are they are their merry fighters who are you know being used as expendable lambs the metal level taliban these are the commanders who also get killed wounded. the taliban managed to replace them and there is the strategic level this strategic level is not suffering all they are not under pressure they

are in karachi they are in lahore they are in push our they are in the basements of pakistani pakistani army so their strategic mind of the taliban is not afghan best teach it brain of the taliban is actually g.h.q. pindi the pakistan army. forces they trained and sent to afghanistan they are just acting like a demolishing force they are not in control so the conferences therefore are very important to get it out realize ation that actual peace comes when we recognize the reality that they actually leadership of the taliban is the pakistan army and if we cannot we cannot sort the problem adapt level the regardless of how much we peel off the taliban the problem will continue

so was the point for pakistan to have a never ending war on its border why does it support the conflict won't be more profitable to have a peaceful afghanistan as a neighbor exactly you know exactly that is what we are advocating that's what we are lobbying that's the logic we use we say. let this trial at this test the state to state relationship and see if you cannot achieve un legitimate. interest and if you cannot overcome your anxieties through promoting bilateral relationship then you may resort to other means but you have not to deny that type of a relationship for us for a very long time but you know the the under review there and the calera belief in pakistan. as afghanistan is a weakest it it's it's a county which is susceptible to domination to manipulation and nato is temporary

it's not a constant it's a valuable it is have today i am it will go out and we asked the most populous neighbor of afghanistan can read dominated so what dr spock astronomy policy towards us is she to get he arrow games and she. you know stubbornness and. frankly being a stack and twentieth nineteenth century way off thinking politics it is far far away from civility. civilized whom i'm human relationship if they do practice civilized human relationship i'm not sure there is anything in afghanistan to dictate as hurt pakistanis or be against them but they've c.s. week this has a size it will notable easy to dominate so therefore they continue to pursue these

these odd policies former afghan president hamid karzai told me that pakistan supports insurgents in afghanistan because kabul is friendly with delhi and some guy sent just a proxy battlefield for the rivalry between india and pakistan how does that afghan war influence it. well i do not necessarily go the logic of farmer president when it comes to comes to the taliban if you study the present former president karzai policies to the whole scenario he never had a consistent policy he was fluctuating even every month in regards to the situation and we think he has spoiled some of the best opportunities we had in this county to . state power unify the nation and defeat defeat terrorism the only difference is that india is backing the afghan

a state and india is openly supporting afghanistan and economic development and it's providing all of the legitimate assistance stuff security forces. india is not into put ovide ing aid for any non a state actor in my county so we should not say they pakistanis are out of there because india is here pakistan was here when india was not here so we are also saying to the pakistanis if you want to reach parity and gain parity with india play according to this kidnapped india is investing in education you can do the same india is investing in our security forces you can do the same india is investing in today and you can do the same you know pakistan is like a very angry bully and a study to come out come pete with that talented boy of the same street so they're

far their solution far far far their feeling of inferiority is to punch everyone rising that's not that's not a good way to behave mr salih thank you very much for this interview we were talking to. former head of afghan intelligence about. the situation in afghanistan and whether it's going to improve any time soon that's it for this edition of so think i'll see you next time. how does it feel to be a share of the greatest job in the world it's as close to being

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