origin but they knew it wasn't definitely there's so. how do they know that if they can't determine what the origin is i think that this that raises the larger question a larger issue of getting experts together to to look at this both from russia and from and from the. chemical weapons. that oversees this this type of activity to make that determination but so far the west says as turn that request down and which indicates to me that they have something to hide and i think that if we're going to have transparency on this to get to the bottom of it i think the experts both from russia and the west need to get together and come to a resolution the fact that porton down which is the u.k. government facility could not determine the origin i think is a very very significant and it begs the question even further as to if they're

going to pursue this even brother and they politically are going to do that that that they need to get the facts and not react to. emotion and also so-called intelligence which is highly questionable particularly after the iraqi dubey and the assertion that led to the u.s. and u.k. invasion of two thousand and three which turned out to be nothing so i think you cannot trust the intelligence alone and even the porton down people's conceded that they that they're not the ones who can determine the origin and i think that that's what that begs the question of getting experts together to make that determination once and for all i i i take the point from the russian government that they're very adamant that they were not the source of this. attempt on the former. doubles spy and his daughter and it's all the more reason why. in fairness

to russia the europeans need to work with them and come to a resolution rather than to hold them at arm's length and treat them like a hostile actor in all cases and i think that as as the experts have the scientific experts have pointed out this notion chuck is out there it's not just one entity from the former soviet union but it's it's it's out there and other entities easily could have not been you sleep we could have certainly put this together if they if they knew the formulas and all that and there are and there is that capability and and as you pointed out that people have left with with samples of them of no bitch when they left the soviet union and so it's out there and that any any country with them may industrial capability can make it. michael i just want to point out that

no doubt critics of russia people who think this was russia will say well you know just because they don't know where the chemical came from it doesn't mean that it wasn't russian that is true it also means that we don't know who it could have been it could have been any country now this argument coming from the u.k.'s government was fundamentally based on the fact that you know they argued this could only have come from russia it gathered a lot of momentum a lot of other countries have got on board with them on this if this starts the full apart can they push you with an argument that isn't based on any concrete fact and mainly on the a belief that it was russia they have to start going backwards on this well it is a montra undertaken now by the west is part of this and russia is offering in in terms of straight. line up and when you have a particular in the middle east and what have you and and the west is losing and they they know it and so and with the hardened types that you have coming on board with the trumpet ministration most especially the war cabinet if you will they're

going to be much more adamant about that because that's been their mantra all along is that there's an anti russian crusade and but the facts have got to stand out and i think it will absolutely undermine their assertion that it was russian and then that's all the reason why these experts need to get together once and for all and allow the russian experts to come in and view the evidence i just don't trust the intelligence i we never seen what that intelligence is we've never seen why they concluded that it was just russia how and and we've never seen the evidence publicly that it pointed right to a lot of your putin ordering it nothing nothing yet these assertions go out and i think it's a disservice to to russia as a as a major power and it needs to be and they need to be respected and allow their experts to come in and examine that. but what the the analysis from the scientists at porton down now even through is greater question as to what this what the origin

of this. was and i think that that's what needs to be taken to ground and figured out once and for all where did come from if you can ever determine that. i don't know that they will be able to i'm not a scientist on that in that position to comment on that but it shows that there is question and that they cannot determine that it was from russia and that's significant. well michael here's a question we'll put the down did add that you know it wasn't their primary objective to establish what country these nerve agent came from rather their job was to establish what it was but at this point irregardless of which way the investigation goes with it. they say that you know it was a brush oh well it was russia in the in the future this is does it matter anymore

hasn't the damage being done what with all these expulsions a new fall in the in relations well yeah but i think the expulsions and the allegations is part of the general western anti russian approach right now because they've got no where in some. of stagnant conflicts. that they insist that russia needs to come come back on and and there be an out outsmarted strategically as i said so this is this is we're really worrisome particularly to the united states because of their they've lost their influence in various areas so this is all part of a larger package and they're just using this no bit shock episode to push that course that agenda and when you have people like bolton coming on it's going to be even much more serious that yeah i think it's it's a very serious development the damage has been done to to russia and it's it's basically condemning them before they have the facts they're reacting more to

emotion and if they're if they have any intelligence they haven't shared it with anybody and and they still holding on to that likely approach rather than making show in showing the public the evidence that it came from one one destination or another and they can't do it and porton down doesn't even know that's just from a scientific standpoint and that's why the scientists that i'm charging for porton down said well maybe other elements need to be brought in to make that kind of a determination that was not there is what but again i thought it was significant that they said well it wasn't there's one how do they know that if they can't determine what the origin was so i just think that. there's a lot of more questions than answers at this point. i'm just thinking in back to the iraq war it's come up a few times over the course of covering this story because of course that was an example of a government saying you know what well highly likely we're pretty sure that this country has this weaponry it didn't pan out millions of people protested in the

u.k. to try and stop that war they would listen to the government's gone with the same approach this time they didn't listen to the leader of the opposition on they scase do you think that this is going to really add fuel to to the labor party and to things generally cool but now because he told them to speak to russia and they didn't. well yeah i think that that's a possibility i don't know corp courtman carries considerable influence in britain but but it wasn't likely that iraq had w m d according to the intelligence services george tenet told george bush it was a slam dunk like it was certain and people like in my office and what have you which were monitoring what was going into iraq at the time said no we don't see anything operational you know there might be stuff on the shelf in the laboratory but nothing operational and we were just absolutely pushed aside because the determination to have been made they were going to take out saddam hussein so there

was that larger issue that's what i'm beginning to see happening with respect to. cushion this narrative toward russia to try and diminish and and undercut it in the in the op in the world view in order to be a little bit in and soon end its influence and make it look like a bad guy rather than coming and coming up with the facts and we've seen this narrative before as i said in two thousand and three and it's happening again and this time it's russia before it was iraq so it's basically history repeating itself and it's a very unfortunate development and reasonable people with. what to get the facts first before they start pointing fingers and that's not happening here. michael appreciate it tom you these might be my pleasure. for those who just tuning in just past seven pm here in the russian capital we've got a breaking news story here's a reminder of the most salient points the head of a british military lab says that it has so far failed to determine the country of

origin of the substance used to poison former russian agents and this daughter a month ago now does this by the u.k. government have already laid the blame addresses dos that let's listen to it to be clear your not able at portadown to say where it is from at this stage with the work that we've done thus far we've been able to establish that it's not over chocolate from that family we are continuing to work to help to provide additional information that may help us get closer to you know the question that you us but but we haven't yet been able to do that. are corresponds in london on a situation it was we live on the line just bring us up to date with which seems to be a significant turn in this story. well this is definitely a huge development in the script hall saga that has been now raging on for a whole month tomorrow will be the one month anniversary that pollen has daughter

yulia were found on that now notorious bench and souls bury and only to see a massive diplomatic row unraveling between russia and the u.k. dragging other countries into the measures taken against russia and here we are we're seeing this leading british defense science lab porton down saying that not only do they not have any proof that the nerve agent used on scrip hall and his daughter came from russia but they just don't know the origin the source of where this nerve agent could have come from and of course this is a massive development given the amount of outrage we've seen come from the u.k. where we saw the british prime minister theresa may jump at conclusions very quickly despite using words like highly likely and probably supported by massively in parliament where and peas were all behind taking certain steps against russia

where we've seen endless commentary from u.k. foreign secretary boris johnson we've seen the defense minister telling russia to go away and shut up we've seen the press go completely into hysteria mode and into a frenzy with this whole scandal trying to decipher every single detail with all of the blame being put on russia immediately and here we are now with these scientists saying they just don't have the proof and they just don't know and to get a low eloquent closer look at how massive the hysteria was here in westminster let's now go to a short clip. it's highly unlikely that russia was responsible we do hold russia koku culpable culpable for the attempted murder case is koku calling. you likely to do. well in this whole ordeal russia was due to. armond guilty be forgiven and he will be russia was actually given a chance to prove its innocence to which russia said look we'd like to see some

evidence before being accused in these kinds of developments however this did not happen instead we saw britain put forward an ultimatum saying that russia needs to prove its guilt otherwise measures would follow and indeed they have and we did see the member of the opposition the leader of the opposition party here in the u.k. german corben say maybe slow let's slow down a little bit maybe let's try some dialogue look for evidence this is what he had to say. the necessary steps under the chemical weapons convention to make a full request for evidence from the russian government under article nine point two. how has she responded to the russian government's request for asylum full of the agent used in the souls return to run its own tests. as a resolution trace analysis been run on a some pull of the nerve agent and has not revealed any evidence as to the location

of its production all the identity of exposed to traitors and can the prime minister update the house on what conversations if any she's had with the russian government and while. the oil suspending plan to level contacts does the prime minister agree that it is essential to maintain a robust dialogue with russia. and while of course those questions remained largely on answered and still do today we know that now the latest is that these scientists are saying new proof we don't know the source westminster and of course the british prime minister now yet to follow up on what they make of these latest developments it seems unlikely though that with the vigor with which this whole story was approached. there is going to be any kind of backtracking any time soon despite we have heard from moscow russian foreign minister had said that russia wants to see

specific proof otherwise especially from the organization for the prohibition of chemical weapons who are currently in the u.k. conducting their investigation russia is a member of that organization and they've been saying we want to see the findings we want to see specifics we want to see facts otherwise we'll consider this a provocation and this is been what's been unraveling so far so now it seems that the next steps should be coming from westminster reacting somehow to these latest revelations from this lab in britain but we're going to have to remain watching this story very closely to see if that actually does happen. many thanks some situ with the latest there from london let's bring in a guest this breaking news this not a must just to speak to our next guest craig marie author broadcaster for the right correct various things former diplomat. of the line craig gordon brown's chief says that it was not its job to say where the agent was manufactured what impact does

the recent statement have for this case do you think. well to be important statement i knew i published on my blog a fortnight ago but sources within the foreign income of officer told me that porton down scientists weren't able to say it was made in russia and that they were under very heavy pressure from the government to say that and they were refusing to say it and today it's been confirmed firmed up my sources were telling me the truth what we've seen today is news management because the government had to get over the hurdle that the organization for the purpose of chemical weapons would shortly be telling people that there is no evidence this came from russia not to slee the government decided firmly point of view would damage limitation that it was best porton down came out and said that first and so that they could try to manage the news story and we'll see very careful news management over the next day or two.

the lump suggested that this agent is complex it needs the capabilities of a state to manufacture it from your experiences which countries would have that capability or an awful lot. i mean an absolute minimum of a couple of dozen states which could make this but he said probably it would need a state to manufacture it and i think that probably is very important because there are many other people including for example the david colum professor of organic chemistry at cornell university who says that it's just not true it has to be a state and any of his students his senior students could make it is also very very interesting if you watch the interview that the. the sentence where he says it would probably need a state to make it is tacked on at the end it's very discontinuous melissa to be

interviewed and if you look closely you'll see that not only has the shot changed the camera and tripod have actually been moved so i strongly suspect that the government handlers who would definitely have been in the room watching him were unhappy with his interview want to something that implicated russia a bit more so they added on the bit at the end after all finished of the camera had been moved saying that it was probably a state actor it started out as highly likely the government belief there's been lots of ifs and buts and maybe a need to state to manufacture it it's not an argument it's convinced everybody it could really do with some evidence being provided to think we're likely to see some . would be very nice if we did i mean this ought to be an investigation into a serious crime and it ought to be carried out with criminal standards of evidence gathering and proof was in fact there's been very little evidence of making serious attempts to actually catch whoever did this. and you know we're told probably this

or likely that well that's not the way that criminal verdicts are assessed of course the truth of the matter is they announced this was russia within hours of it happening without any attempt to gather evidence at all and it's quite simply feeds into a desire by nato members in particular. to step up and the korean and and elsewhere this has to be seen and understand craig you are a diplomat u.k. diplomat based in as bacchus stand it is it true that they had. possession of this in range of chemicals and it is not a joke or or the capability capability to manufacture. the weapons a chemical weapons testing facility was in no course when it was actually dismantled by the americans between one thousand nine hundred nine and two thousand and two i

attended a farewell party for the americans when it finished and i've actually visited. after it was all dismantled but the. all the lap notes from the equipment and stuff went to the united states so they can certainly manufacture it of course there were many ukrainians for example working at the course who worked on chemical weapons programs it was a saudi it facility not a russian facility and. pretty well every nation you can name of the former soviet union has people who view billeted to do this not to mention the fact that other countries are quite openly does it one thing that's interesting is that the head scientist at porton down when asked whether or not the. substance could have come from his laboratory he didn't say no we don't manufacture about substance or we don't make anything like this he said no it could not have come here from here because our security and controls are extremely tight that's more or less an admission they do manufacture this kind of thing. and as i say the

name of a number of states and probably non-state actors too who could make it a lot. many thanks for british ambassador to pakistan craig murry there i should say at this point our guest expressed the opinion his opinion that there may have been some kind of u.k. government representative there that interview with the porton down cheez there is no evidence to support that allegation but that was the view of our guest now up until now there has been no evidence presented to back up the claims some countries and organizations have been quick to side with the u.k. though what's clear is that russian diplomats have been expelled nato is no exception woodring seven russian diplomatic staff to leave its headquarters russia's deputy foreign affairs minister and former permanent representative to nato told us he thinks that the script fair was likely devised to boost military spending. i think this whole script case was concocted to prepare public opinion

for the ever increasing amounts of money being spent on the military at present the military budgets of european nato members put together to approximately two hundred seventy billion if they achieve the two percent target that some will come to four hundred billion that would be ten times more than russia's military budget. obviously such whopping amounts of money being spent on the military are liable to be the subject of heated public debate to make sure this goes down well you need the image of an enemy and a powerful one at that so it's crystal clear that this huge provocation that was carried out by the u.k. was intended to achieve this goal which is to add fuel to the flames of recent phobia which has recently begun to peter out as people are simply got tired of it having expelled russian diplomats nato is soaring off the branch they're sitting on as it were i can't believe they don't realize that in this turbulent time a lack of proper communication between the two powers in europe could potentially

bring about very dangerous consequences. for russia was named highly likely perpetrator of the attack on the former russian spy and his daughter is in the studio with me we've been following developments it's it's been the most surreal story i think because it was considered this kind of foot accompli over in the u.k. that you know russia did this they weren't going to give us any proof but they were pretty sure russia's continued to deny this kind of changes things slightly doesn't it well it's more to do with revelations well it's one thing that. said that you know we haven't been able to identify the origin but then they say that wasn't really our job our job was to identify the substance and the politicians and the intelligence experts will work out where it came from but there was another interesting thing he said questioned on whether. had its own stockpiles of the navi chalk group of nerve agents he refused to answer didn't comment on it

but there is evidence to back that up to say that yes indeed britain either synthesised or came into came into position of new self for example the had to have a sample of nerve in shock to be able to tell that it was never talk that would use to attack ciggies cripple the former russian agent and m i six double agent and his daughter to be able to identify the substance so quickly you would have had to have have had it in a library basically very rough but in the library of chemicals there masses. if britain didn't have it it would have been a long and complicated procedure to work out what exactly this substance was for the court don't see it was did i that question put to him as world do you have this nerve agent is an opportunity to clarify for everybody and wouldn't answer exactly what he said is that this wasn't any of our stocks and that nothing had left their

facility that's that's all he said but very much leaves the question if britain presumably has no bitch. what about other countries there are many other countries that could also have come into the possession of never talk and that was the main point made by a number of military chemists who were. just just yesterday and they explained to me that the formula is out there. more than sixty of them in fact there are books that explain the entire process of producing new york so to say that only russia has no rich alk the nerve agent the subgroup of nerve agents easy is preposterous. british authorities are saying they administered an antidote on the first day after the poisoning to decide what to use they would need to know what poison was used or

otherwise you run the risk of exacerbating the situation even further so i infer the british authorities knew what poison was used in the soldiery attack from the very beginning. as the group of toxic agents known under the umbrella term novacek we first came across them in open sources back in two thousand and seven that's one publication was made in the us where multitude of formulas were included with as many as sixty toxic agents them each of them was assigned an index and the chemical expert system but they're all available in open sources the sport and no secret. the thing about chemicals and i'll go real technical for of for a bit is every single chemical has amassed spectrum this is a unique number of its mass for its constitute. molecules it's all very complicated but there's a library of various mass spectrums measurements of all these various chemicals you

know as many as millions of different entries to be able to put an entry into this library you will you have to have synthesised produced a substance or somehow acquired it and measured it so for this for this. nerve agent molecule came in chemical to be in this library the british the americans they would have had to have it and it makes sense militarily to be able to produce this nerve agent for you know if not to weaponize it then to be able to devise an antidote to it in case it is ever used against you so again you know this is this is what they said in the media initially the british imports johns and for example. that produce no big joke is. untrue. and you know russia and the great britain have been been

a dog ahead there's been no communication between the two the russians of time and time again to be counted in the investigation to be given any sort of information about the chemical about you know what happened about it was made they've they've gotten nothing or we've had these arguments rhetoric which of course up to the un security council. the u.k. government concluded that it was highly likely that russia was responsible for this reckless act we haven't seen anything but highly likely as of yet we have concluded that mr script pro and his daughter were poisoned with a nazi shock a military grade nerve agent of a type developed by russia. if britain is so confident that it was not a truck gassed from the not me chemical formula samples and the ability to produce it the united states believes that russia is responsible for the attack on two people and the united kingdom using a military grade nerve agent. we demand that material proof be provided before

making any accusations against us in this high profile case. we requested the russian government to provide an explanation by the end of tuesday the thirteenth of march on how this russian produce nerve agent could have been deployed in salzburg. they provided no credible explanation we are ready for open and constructive cooperation within the framework of the organization for the prohibition of chemical weapons if we don't speak the language of ultimatums and we won't allow anyone to speak to us this way. ok here's the story this hour here on r.t. international the head of a british military lab says that is are so far failed to determine the country of origin of the substance used to poison former russian agents and his daughter a month ago this is despite the u.k. government having already laid the blame at russia's doorstep let's hear to the comments of the chief of portadown we have not verified the to say

source but we provided the scientific information to the government but you have not been able to establish at porton down that this was made in russia as i said it's our job to provide eat you know the scientific evidence that either.