hello and welcome to cross talk where all things considered i'm peter lavelle after weeks of media hysterics and official claims without a shred of evidence the case that russia was behind the solitary poisoning incident is falling apart transparency and the rule of law have never played a role it has always been about politics and agenda what happens next sadly is only too predictable. cross talking toxic politics i'm joined by my guest marcus papadopoulos in london he's the editor of politics first magazine also in london we have alexander the

class of he is a political commentator and a former kremlin advisor and in plymouth we crossed to patrick henningsen he is a journalist writer and founder of the news website twenty first century wired dot com all right john cross talk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciate alexander let me go to you first in london you know so much is happening and like to point out that you. actually spoken to the media apparently she had a phone call with her sister in russia and she's not giving up very much but i have to say what a miraculous recovery from if we start from the beginning of this story you know and talks it agent ten times worse than v.x. and on and on seeing how the media has changed its story the government has been stonewalling there's been no transparency whatsoever there is no cooperation and cooperation with russia that is asked to be part of the investigation i mean just stonewalling here go ahead alexander. well be the first of all what i find

completely bizarre is that practically from day one all of the british media all of it i stress have been covering this story in the exactly the same words and phrases now i'm sorry but how does the free media work here who is giving the instructions who is giving the orders because i find the very difficult to imagine let's say you know a hundred to one hundred three hundred journalists report in the exactly the same way and basically guess most of the things that are happening and provide no proof at all i thought that was very strange secondly what i found absolutely bizarre is that we were told right from the start that this was supposedly a nerve agent the military grade nerve agent which for some reason was called not

the chalk which was by the way not that york was never developed in the soviet union it was something that was invented in america but if that was a military grade nerve agent right by now both this cripples and the policeman supposedly saved their lives would be long dead there is no way there would have survived but so that point solving problems yeah i missed all the attention of the media well they it seems like a miraculous recovery here let me let me go to marcus it seems to me that boris johnson the foreign secretary he's suffering from porton down syndrome ok because i got what is his story we have tweets being deleted at the foreign ministry here he had he was categorically informed that this was a nerve agent that came from russia and of course we find out that it's not true why does he still have his job marcus well johnson is completely and utterly in.

but and there are calls for him to resign over his statements on what happened in source very of course he's not going to resign because if he resigned that would be an admission of guilt on his behalf and of course the british government's case against russia oversold spree would be all the more weakened but also theresa may is not going to sack him because if she did sack him then that would initiate a very very vicious response from the vita wing of the conservative party because the right wing of the conservative party is very supportive of boyce johnson so simply bush johnson is not going anywhere but that said even if he was to resign even if he was to be sacked his successor would keep to the same narrative and if i can very quickly just set the scene anyone who's familiar with the history of anglo

russian relations was not surprised by how within a few hours of the tragic events in source very the british government and british mainstream media would blame in the russian state because ever since diplomatic relations were established between london and moscow in fifteen ninety five russia has been viewed in whitehall in westminster as almost the devil incarnate over five hundred years or so the ground has been set in britain to make any accusation against russia by a british politician or british mainstream journalists and they don't need evidence to back it up you know patrick you know mark has used the term the case against russia what is the case here all i can see is on the international stage it's a lot of elbowing a lot of pressure being put on when we had with the the o.p.c. w. decision. if you look at all the membership it is a global membership but it was the people that wanted to make sure. that russia

wasn't part of the process either are in nato or in the european union latin american asian they were they didn't know along with it at all it's intensely politicized and so what is the case because i haven't been given any evidence yet ok but it seems like it's already gone to trial and the same people that brought to trial the jury go ahead patrick yeah it's a curious case imagine the prosecutor makes the accusations against the defendant but won't allow the defendant to see the evidence and is presumed guilty straight out of the gate it's absolutely incredible but you know let's look at this this term nova chalk come from and this is really interesting and this is something that's kind of casually glossed over by the media there is no there's very little evidence of any. program or anything called nova chocks even back to the soviet union chemical weapons research and development days so what it is is a g.v.

class which is a two three two three zero two two six zero of agents and the reason this term nova chalk has been thrown out i think people need to look at this it is to deflect from the fact that your first guest pointed out alexander the united states is the only one to develop this at edgewood proving grounds the united states army's biological and chemical weapons proving grounds in edgewood maryland in one nine hundred ninety eight this was published in nist ok so the united states for this class which is not a nova chuck nova truck was a term invented by a russian defector published in his book in two thousand and eight so this this is a really important point because it deflects from the fact that the united states itself is the one nation on record who has developed and worked on this class of nerve agents that is publicly known you know alexander's to date there has been

no true. and spare and see just accusations unfortunately i have to believe that we're not going to ever get any evidence whatsoever it will always be shrouded and it will because it's really this is really not about the attack or apparent attack on two people one former double agent and his daughter but this is about pushing forward an agenda very nefarious one at that because i don't see this is just one step in a process ok and so this is why i don't think we'll ever get any kind of transparency on this case go ahead alexander well as you know appease the fifteen years ago and now the prime minister stood up in the coalmines made up by the gay sions about chemical weapons against the rug and also called to tell its agencies and said you can't reveal the details and then the war happened than a million people or more died and so on and we're still don't know anything how would work so i think we're in a similar situation now with another prime minister also i think to be honest with

you peter i think there is no nerve agent i agree it was known over there and tell you i mean anybody making up and give me advice and i agree up. you know and you know why i say this because you know when i watched that. chief executive giving his take on this so-called novia choke and i felt the reason why he said. is because there is none i mean what do i mean what the humean understand what came from every if the top professionals of course they're told that there is nothing to for them to examine and when i saw all those you know porton down boys dressed up in those fancy defensive gear walking around and there on them bosses by and corpse looking you know with interest i thought this is

a. friends of the responses they're just making a look as if that is something that certainly could be that it's certainly good for the cameras isn't into ok marcus let me go to let me go to you jeremy corbett is being pilloried for this as well and i find that's a very i mean because there's so many elements as we have nato we have the european union we have break and we have the labor opposition and they're turning this full blast against him in a very shameful i'm a conservative he's the way to the left of me but what the media is doing to him is shameful go ahead marcus. well ever since germy corbin became an m.p. in nineteen eighty three he has consistently cooled out british foreign policy he's consistently called out american foreign policy he has consistently challenge the british mainstream media and history shows that he has been correct he was correct about what happened in the former yugoslavia he was correct about what happens in

iraq he was correct about libya he was correct about ukraine and he was correct about syria but what i believe is all the more frightening about how british mainstream media is treating him is the level of abuse yes because yes they have tackled him over the last. years but the person who abuse against him is absolutely horrific being called a traitor being called a putin apologist this is not something which should be tolerated in britain because after all britain is supposed to be a democracy there is supposed to be rule of law there is supposed to be respect in british politics but when it comes to call been none of that is there and we have to ask why is that the case and it's very very simple pizza because jeremy corbyn terrifies the british establishment these are terrified governments that jenny clarifies british mainstream they don't want him to be prime minister he's

a genuine threat to them and also he's a genuine politician he's a genuine human being and regrets not going to let many let me agree in the politics in the going to jump in here gentlemen we're going to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on toxic politics stayed with our. pranking gave americans a lot of job opportunities i needed to come up here to make some money i could make twenty five thousand dollars as a teacher or i could make fifty thousand dollars a year trucks or chose to drive truck people rush to a small town in north dakota was an unemployment rate of zero percent like gold rush is very very similar to a gold rush but this beautiful story ended with pollution and devastation

a lot of people have left here i don't know too many people here and slowdowns much they lost in jobs that laid off the american dream is changing it's not what it used to be. and it's a tough reality to deal with. also was to question whether it was very reasonable to react with sanctions and up breaking the dialogue between russia and the western countries. as one of those countries that is firmly convinced that it is necessary and will be necessary to keep up this dialogue and still talk. about all the metals. it's the cradle of jazz. is america still there are we have. to

close disc jazz feel. a city of climatic contest of alligators on the loose of poverty and crime to use by the at least twelve members of my family close most. of street racing in the heat of the night this is new orleans. the best place in the world. welcome back to cross talk where all things considered i'm peter lavelle to remind you we're discussing toxic politics. let's go back to plymouth patrick and kind of give us the the lay of the land when it comes to international politics i'm talking about the e.u.

brags that nato here because i think these are very important pieces that they're trying to bring into this story here basically trying to keep some semblance of unity when there it is flagging everyone knows that go ahead patrick. you know what . the the dogs were unleashed yesterday in the british press on theresa may and boris johnson so they in a way they've kind of sprung their own trap in this sense so it's possible that if the stablished wanted to bury the embarrassment of the nova chalk hoax or the nova chalk story that may and boris could very well be eventually buried with that or attached to that but then on the other hand the break breaking ranks in germany angela merkel's one of her close deputies has come out and basically. criticised britain for invoking this kind of solidarity of faith between the e.u.

or nato member states to sort of accept some sort of presumption of guilt on the basis of no evidence at all so. willy a former vice president of the the o.c.d. he put this very well he said this threatens to undermine these very multilateral institutions in other words if you cry wolf that this time not be able to actually do it again they're already on thin ice as you mentioned earlier with regards to libya and so forth so this is really risky in terms of evoking this kind of stand with your allies mantra this is kind of the overriding theme so far we've seen with the united states doing as well coming in right behind britain on this as well as its nato partners so that's that's how it looks geo politically you know alexander i found it really quite extraordinary looking at the u.s. state department spokeswoman just taking a maze word i mean you don't do that in international politics you don't do it when the stakes are so high like this it is just the lack of professionalism and it adds

to the perception that this is some kind of agenda that's being played out here and it also if we could get it go go back to the u.k. you know i mean with with briggs it in chaos here it looks like them a government is trying to find unity you know accusing russia of changing the narrative here in trying to rebuild her strength in the polls which are flagging go ahead alexander. well what i find completely puzzling is that this until russian stance by the may government is not popular amongst the british public i can see that by the comments on social media i meet a lot of people who recognize me on the streets because they see me on television and they tell me they don't believe may and pro-government and this is what i find completely puzzling as regards the sort of public relations exercise but my opinion piece is that i think that trying to bury bricks it i think that what that doing is

that trying to create this so-called friend exact really coming from russia they say the war has been brought to our territory by russia and next to a war has been taking place i think what they're going to do they're going to basically cancel breck's it and say in the light of such dangerous situation would bet the stick with our allies and we'd better well if not cancel breakfast but they extend the transition period which is a devastating to the station period because it was negotiated in the way that i find it's completely incompetent from the position of the british government and don't forget there are many many other. serious problems and scandals in the background including the paedophiles can those the corruption scandals with huge corporations or government called took suddenly going bankrupt and many many others

so i think it suits that he's amazed government to have some sort of a huge huge distraction and this is used as a distraction and what they're missing the ministers in the government is that they are not getting popular we have british album that's the most amazing thing markets what is amazing also is that blaming russia i don't care where you are in the west western world rochelle i'll. meddled in the election the us and gave us trump here russia meddled in bragg's it that's why it happened here we go down the list of so many different things it is the most convenient distraction you can come up with because the media is completely in on it but put the elites really like it because the people are right in the western world demand change and they're not being given it they're being told national security trumps their democratic rights and expressions go ahead marcus in london. well wost are not downplaying the

significance of what happens in source very because it is very serious however it is part and parcel of historically speaking a very troublesome a very problematic relationship between britain and russia as i said at the beginning of this program for five hundred years britain and russia have used to each other with mutual suspicion mutual hostility mutual bitterness this is part is part and parcel of this relationship but if i can very quickly just take us back to source pre you know the conclusion of british scientists that they cannot determine the source of the alleged nerve agent is absolutely devastating to the british case against russia. within twenty four hours the same scientists said that they have now discovered the source well one of them and market of offense you

know i'm underage sure that no pressure was put on it though you know in the word soft tommy in the words of tommy cooper it happened just like. right exactly patrick what what what is the purpose of all of this i mean do they expect russia to say admitting guilt or say sorry i mean and then we have to resume saying there will be a. proportional response not what. does that mean are they going to poison someone in moscow i mean i what it is is that it's so much bluster here i don't see it is a very focused thing i mean what is the outcome that they want because if the russians are not allowed to be part of the process of an international organisation not just by laterally but in international organizations you know what is the point of having these organizations in investigations if all of the players under international law cannot pursue so make go ahead. you know there's a lot there's a lot going on here obviously on many different levels but i think i'll pick up on

your last point you just looked at the emergency meeting with the organization for the prohibition of chemical weapons and a roll call vote was taken and it was twenty three there were seventeen i believe abstentions right so in total twenty three countries either voted against the u.k. and the u.s. position and on sided with with infective league with russia so it's not the world it's nato exactly and i think there is a lot there is a lot of pressure put to bear on some of those countries behind the scenes you have u.n. ambassador nikki haley threatening to be taking names if the vote doesn't go their way that we've seen a record of this undermining multilateral institutions undermining international relations and the last thing i'll say is that the propaganda has been so thick in the united states and britain that we have a situation now alexander your guest pointed out very correctly that the majority the british public probably don't buy this official conspiracy theory but we have

a situation where the ruling class are actually a victim of their own propaganda over decades that many of them in in westminster actually believe this or probably ask mark is you know what does he think how many m.p.'s actually believe in the conspiracy theory or are being held in a whip line that would be my question i throw to marcus it's a great question marcus what do you think. i would say that privately there are a significant percentage of and pais wast not necessarily. saying that russia didn't do it but at the same time they are questioning the british government's arguments and the same page from a number of parties all fearful of taken a stand now that is regrettable we have pace to take a stance but they all fearful because of the backlash that they will save from british mainstream media the language which is being used by british newspapers to

describe anyone who's question in the british case against moscow it's absolutely disgusting you know we're hearing talk about traitors we haven talk about useful idiots so yes there is truth there are a number of m.p.'s who privately think very differently gretly they're not going to say that publicly and unfortunately unfortunately one it was part of the genetic code of professional politicians is cowardice. alexander let me go to you a lot of people have said since this whole thing started this is a gambit to derail rush's that world cup that's coming up in a few months to try to get some kind of what the international community will boycott it meaning that what the western countries like a nato and american allies do you think that's part of this here that's one of the reasons why it's being pushed so hard without evidence without the due process of law go ahead alexander. well obviously. i don't think it's the

main game there were obviously there was an election in russia before and so on but what i find absolutely ridiculous is that they are saying that russia should have them all to you and they use this word all over and over and what is the motive. what is the motive they're saying the more well the motive is allegedly big. strain from the support of putin supporting the russian and i will. respond and i was responding to them and saying do you actually believe that the russian people are so bloodthirsty that they need to would unite behind their leadership if they see somebody gets in poison of all places in britain and this this sounds so bizarre and it's being repeated by journalists and by politicians and by other people now i think personally what the biggest lesson from what is going on now in britain is

that the media here the press is out of control that it needs to be every form of the media here because what this happening with have a tiny group of people controlling the whole of the british media and nobody can do anything about it and basically from the from day one the media already created that agenda and in a sense i even felt that the media books and some of the british and exactly what the politicians want to upgrade to say anything that would come through the well the negative it's russia it's all enemy russia wants to destroy is ok well that just proves my guess here that lies and propaganda actually do sell well all right that's a many how many thanks and i guess in london and in plymouth and thanks to our viewers for watching us here archie see you next time and remember cross talk rules .

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israel deploys tanks and snipers to the gaza border where at least three palestinian protesters have been killed and more than two hundred fifty injured in a massive protest. a former russian spy said no longer in critical condition following last month's poisoning and sold as the u.k. media continues to speculate and lead the. district where the soaring crime rates is being blamed on gangs of migrant you. allow.