hello and welcome to crossfire for all things considered i'm peter lavelle after weeks of media hysterics and official claims without a shred of evidence the case that russia was behind the solitary poisoning incident is falling apart transparency and the rule of law have never played a role it has always been about politics and agenda what happens next sadly is only too predictable. across talking toxic politics i'm joined by my guest marcus papadopoulos in london

he's the editor of politics first magazine also in london we have alexander the class of he is a political commentator and a former kremlin advisor and in plymouth we crossed to patrick henningsen he is a journalist writer and founder of the news website twenty first century wired dot com all right gentlemen crosstalk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciate alexander let me go to you first in london you know so much is happening and like to point out that you. actually spoken to the media apparently she had a phone call with her sister in russia and she's not giving up very much but i have to say what a miraculous recovery from if we start from the beginning of this story you know and talks it agent ten times worse than v.x. and on and on seeing how the media has changed its story the government has been stonewalling there's been no transparency whatsoever there is no cooperation and cooperation with russia that is asked to be part of the investigation i mean just

stonewalling here go ahead alexander. well be the first of all what i find completely bizarre is that practically from day one all of the british media all of it i stress have been covering this story in the exactly the same way sometimes in the exactly the same words and phrases now i'm sorry but how does the free media work here who is giving the instructions who is giving the orders because i find it very difficult to imagine let's say you know one hundred to one hundred three hundred journalists report in the exactly the same way and basically guess most of the things that are happening and provide no proof when told i thought that was very strange secondly what i found absolutely bizarre is that we were told right from the start that this was supposedly

a nerve agent the military grade nerve agent which for some reason was called not be chalk which was by the way know which of course never developed in the soviet union it was something that was invented in america but if that was a military grade nerve agent right by now both this cripples and the policeman can supposedly save their lives would be long dead there is no way they would have survived but so that point sorry crow yeah i missed all the attention of the media well they it seems like a miraculous recovery here let me let me go to marcus it seems to me that boris johnson the foreign secretary he's suffering from porton down syndrome ok because i got what is his story we have tweets being deleted at the foreign ministry here he had he was categorically informed that this was a nerve agent that came from russia and of course we find out that it's not true why does he still have his job marcus well. sin is completely and utterly

inept and while there are calls for him to resign over his statements on what happened in source very of course he's not going to resign because if he resigned that would be an admission of guilt on his behalf and of course the british government's case against russia over so was probably would be all the more weakened but also theresa may is not going to sack him because if she did sack him then that would initiate a very very vicious response from the right wing of the conservative party because the right wing of the conservative party is very supportive of voice johnson so simply bush johnson is not going anywhere but that said even if he was to resign even if he was to be sacked his successor would keep to the same narrative and if i

can very quickly just set the scene anyone who's familiar with the history of anglo russian relations was not surprised by how within a few hours of the tragic events in seoul spree the british government and british mainstream media would blame in the russian state because ever since diplomatic relations were established between london and moscow in fifteen ninety five russia has been viewed in whitehall in westminster as almost the devil incarnate over five hundred years or so the ground has been set in britain to make any accusation against russia by a british politician or british mainstream journalist and they don't need evidence to back it up you know patrick you know mark has used the term the case against russia what is the case here all i can see is on the international stage is a lot of elbowing a lot of pressure being put on when we had with the the o.p.c. w.

decision which if you look at all the membership it is a. global membership but it was the people that wanted to make sure that russia wasn't part of the process either are in nato or in the european union latin american asian they were they didn't know along with it at all it's intensely politicized and so what is the case because i haven't been given any evidence yet ok but it seems like it's already gone to trial and the same people that brought to trial the jury go ahead patrick yeah it's a curious case imagine the prosecutor makes the accusations against the defendant but won't allow the defendant to see the evidence and is presumed guilty straight out of the gate it's absolutely incredible but you know let's look at this this term nova chalk come from and this is really interesting and this is something that's kind of casually glossed over by the media there is no there's very little evidence of any program or anything called nova chocks even back to the soviet

union chemical weapons research and development days so what it is is a g.v. class which is a two three two three zero two two six zero of agents and the reason this term nova chalk has been thrown out i think people need to look at this it is to deflect from the fact that your first guest pointed out alexander the united states is the only one to develop this at edgewood proving grounds the united states army's biological and chemical weapons proving grounds in edgewood maryland in one thousand nine hundred eighty eight this was published in nist ok so the united states for this class which is not a nova chuck nova truck was a term invented by a russian defector published in his book in two thousand and eight so this this is a really important point because it deflects from the fact that the united states itself is the one nation on record who has developed and worked on this class

of nerve agents that is publicly known. you know alexander's to date there has been no transparency just accusations unfortunately i have to believe that we're not going to ever get any evidence whatsoever it will always be shrouded and it will because it's this is really not about the attacker apparent attack on two people one former double agent and his daughter but this is about pushing forward an agenda very nefarious one at that because i don't see this is just one step in a process ok and so this is why i don't think we'll ever get any kind of transparency on this case go ahead alexander well as you know appease the fifteen years ago and now the prime minister stood up in the coalmines made up by the gay sions about chemical weapons against iraq and also called to tell its agencies and said you can't reveal the details and then the war happened and the million people or more died and so on and we're still don't know anything how would work so i

think we're in a similar situation now with another prime minister also i think to be honest with you peter i think there is no nerve agent i agree it was known over there and tell you i mean anybody making up and give me advice and i agree up. you know and you know why i say this because you know when i watched the. chief executive giving his take on this so-called norbit show and i felt the reason why he said. is because there is none i mean what do i mean what the humean understand what it came from ever if the top professionals of course they're told that there is nothing to for them to examine and when i saw all those you know porton down boys dressed up in those fancy defensive gear walking around and there on them bosses

by a corpse was looking. you know with interest i thought this is a friend to friends of the responses they're just making it look as if that is something that it certainly could be that it's certainly good for the cameras isn't into ok marcus let me go to let me go to you jeremy corbett is being pilloried for this as well and i find that's a very i mean because there's so many elements as we have nato we have the european union we have brags that and we have the labor opposition and they're turning this full blast against him in a very shameful i'm a conservative he's the way to the left of me but what the media is doing to him is shameful go ahead marcus. well ever since germany corbin became an m.p. in nineteen eighty three he has consistently called out british foreign policy he's consistently called out american foreign policy he has consistently challenge the british mainstream media and history shows that he has been correct he was correct

about what happened in the former yugoslavia he was correct about what happens in iraq he was correct about libya he was correct about ukraine and he was correct about syria but what i believe all the more frightening about how british mainstream media is treating him is the level of abuse yes because yes they have tackled him over the last you know first years but the person the abuse against him is absolutely horrific being called a traitor being called a putin apologist this is not something which should be tolerated in britain because after all britain is supposed to be a democracy there is supposed to be rule of law there is supposed to be respect in british politics but when it comes to corbin none of that is there and we have to ask why is that the case and it's very very simple pizza because jeremy corbin terrifies the british establishment these are terrified governments that jenny

clarifies british mainstream they don't want him to be prime minister he's a genuine threat to them and also he's a genuine politician he's a genuine human being and regrets not is not many let me agree in the politics in the we're going to jump in here gentlemen we're going to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on toxic politics state with our. right. pranking gave americans a lot of new job opportunities i needed to come up here to make some money i could make twenty five thousand dollars as a teacher or i could make fifty thousand dollars a year truck so i chose to drive trucks people rush to a small town in north dakota was an unemployment rate of zero percent like gold

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what i got many more that i'll go on. for years before you got to. keep it up it ended up in the same one a bit and i didn't get it will cause but the good is it also. or no one to ask house hold. on a promise he said. if it or don't or don't let you come up with a good. content in the opinion of i thought i live in the mad at that game and the minimum. because i'm. not there with them but if i say i love them they're going to do like about it and that i have the only thing it is about.

welcome back to cross talk we're all things considered i'm peter lavelle to remind you we're discussing toxic politics. let's go back to plymouth patrick kind of give us the the lay of the land when it comes to international politics i'm talking about the e.u. brags that nato here because i think these are very important pieces that they're trying to bring into this story here basically trying to keep some semblance of unity when there it is flagging everyone knows that go ahead patrick. you know what . the the dogs were unleashed yesterday in the british press on theresa may and boris johnson so they in a way they've kind of sprung their own trap in this sense so it's possible that if the mr bush wanted to bury the embarrassment of the nova chalk hoax or the nova

truck story that may and boris could very well be eventually buried with that or attached to that but then on the other hand the break breaking ranks in germany angela merkel's one of her close deputies has come out and basically. criticised britain for invoking this kind of solidarity of faith between the e.u. or nato member states to sort of accept some sort of presumption of guilt on the basis of no evidence at all so. willie a former vice president of the the o.c.d. he put this very well he said this threatens to undermine these very multilateral institutions in other words if you cry wolf that this time be able to actually do it again they're already on thin ice as you mentioned earlier with regards to libya and so forth so this is really risky in terms of evoking this kind of stand with your allies mantra this is kind of the overriding theme so far we've seen with the

united states doing as well coming in right behind britain on this as well as its nato partners so that's that's how it looks geo politically you know alexander i found it really quite extraordinary looking at the u.s. state department spokeswoman just taking a maze word i mean you don't do that in international politics you don't do it when the stakes are so high like this it is just the lack of professionalism and it adds to the perception that this is some kind of agenda that's being played out here and it also if we could get it go go back to the u.k. you know i mean with with briggs it in chaos here it looks like them a government is trying to find unity you know accusing russia of changing the narrative here in trying to rebuild her strength in the polls which are flagging go ahead alexander. well what i find completely possibly is that this until russian stance by the may government is not popular amongst the british public i can see

that by the comments on social media i meet a lot of people who recognize me on the streets because they see me on television and they tell me they don't believe may and pro-government and this is what i find completely puzzling as regards the sort of public relations exercise but my opinion piece is that i think that trying to bury bricks it i think that what that doing is that trying to create this so-called friend exact really coming from russia they say the war has been brought to our territory by russia and that the war has been taking place i think what they're going to do they're going to basically cancel breck's it and say in the light of such dangerous situation would bet the stick with our allies and we better well if not cancel breakfast but they extend the transition period which is a devastating to the station period because it was negotiated in the way that i

find it's completely incompetent from the position of the british government and don't forget there are many many other. serious problems and scandals in the background including the paedophiles can those the corruption scandals with huge corporations or government called took suddenly going bankrupt and many many others so i think it suits that he's a maze government to have some sort of a huge huge distraction and this is used as a distraction and what they're missing the ministers in the government is that they are not getting popular we had british album that's the most amazing thing marcus was this amazing also is that blaming russia i don't care where you are in the west western world rochelle i'll. meddled in the election in the us and gave us trump here russia meddled and brags that that's why it happened here we go down the list

of so many different things it is the most convenient distraction you can come up with because the media is completely in on it the elites really like it because the people are right in the western world demand change and they're not being given it they're being told national security trumps their democratic rights and expressions go ahead marcus of london. well peter are not downplaying the significance of what happens in some spree because it is very serious however it is part and parcel of historically speaking a very troublesome very problematic relationship between britain and russia as i said at the beginning of this program for five hundred years britain and russia have you to each other with mutual suspicion mutual hostility mutual bitterness this is part is part and parcel of this relationship but if i can very quickly just

take us back to source pre you know the conclusion of british scientists that they cannot determine the source of the alleged nerve agent is absolutely devastating to the british case against russia. within twenty four hours the same scientists said that they have now discovered the source well one of them and mark bridges are going to fence you know i'm on a bridge sure but no pressure was put on a bow you know in the word soft tommy in the words of tommy cooper it happened just like. right exactly patrick what what what is the purpose of all of this i mean do they expect russia to say admitting guilt or say sorry i mean and then we have to resume saying there will be a. proportional response what does that mean are they going to poison someone in moscow i mean i think what it is is that it's so much bluster here i don't see it

it's a very focused thing i mean what is the outcome that they want because if the russians are not allowed to be part of the process of international organization not just by laterally but in international organizations you know what is the point of having these organizations in investigations if all of the players under international law cannot go ahead. there's a lot there's a lot going on here obviously on many different levels but i think i'll pick up on your last point you just looked at the emergency meeting with the organization for the prohibition of chemical weapons and a roll call vote was taken and it was twenty three there were seventeen i believe abstentions right so in total twenty three countries either voted against the u.k. and the u.s. position and on sided with with effectively with russia so it's not the world it's nato exactly and i think there was a lot there's a lot of pressure put to bear on some of those countries behind the scenes you have

u.n. ambassador nikki haley threatening to be taking names if the vote doesn't go their way that we've seen a record of this undermining multilateral institutions undermining international relations and the last thing i'll say is that the propaganda has been so thick in the united states and britain that we have a situation now alexander your guest pointed out very correctly that the majority the british public probably don't buy this official conspiracy theory but we have a situation where the ruling class are actually a victim of their own propaganda over decades that many of them in in the westminster actually believe this all probably ask marcus you know what does he think how many m.p.'s actually believe in the conspiracy theory or are being held in a whip line that would be my question i'd throw to marcus it's a great question marcus what do you think. i would say that privately there are a significant percentage of and pays wast not necessarily. saying that russia

didn't do it but at the same time they are question in the british government's arguments and the same page from a number of parties all fearful of taken a stand now that is regrettable we have pace to take a stance but they all fearful because of the backlash that they were saved from british mainstream media the language which is being used by british newspapers to describe anyone who's question in the british case against moscow it's absolutely disgusting you know we're hearing talk about traitors we haven talk about useful idiots so yes there is truth there are a number of m.p.'s who privately think very differently. they're not going to say that publicly so unfortunately unfortunately one it was part of the genetic code of professional politicians is cowardice i'll alexander let me go to you

a lot of people have said since this whole thing started this is a gambit to do real rushes that world cup that's coming up in a few months to try to get some kind of what the international community will boycott it meaning what the western countries ok nato and american allies do you think that's part of this here that's one of the reasons why it's being pushed so hard without evidence without the due process of law go ahead alexander. well obviously. i don't think it's the main game there were obviously there was an election in russia before and so on but what i find absolutely ridiculous is that they are saying that russia should have them all to you and they use this word all over and over again what is the motive. what is the motive they're saying the more well the motive is allegedly big. straying from the support or points in support of the russian i would. respond and i was in responding to them and saying do you

actually believe that the russian people are so bloodthirsty that they need to would unite behind their leadership if they see somebody gets in poison of all places in britain and this this sounds so bizarre and it's being repeated by journalists and by political and by other people now i think personally what the biggest lesson from what is going on now in britain is that the media here the press is out of control that it needs to be every form of the media here because what this happening with have a tiny group of people controlling the whole of the british media and nobody can do anything about it and basically from the from day one the media already create the agenda and in a sense i even felt that the media books and some of the put it this and exactly

what the politicians what afraid to say anything that would come through the negative it's russia it's emmy russia wants to destroy us ok well that just proves my guess here that lies and propaganda actually do sell well all right that's a many how many thanks and i guess in london and in plymouth and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at r.t. see you next time and remember cross talk rules. also was to question whether it was very reasonable to react with sanctions and up breaking the dialogue between the russia and the western countries. as one

of those countries that is firmly convinced that it is necessary and will be this is fareed to keep up this dialogue and still talk. about all the methods. that are simpler summits and all of them mama. i don't know the sort of the dark side of. the old eagle of the few who took on the critical of what if they're going to be chilcote who know. the sort of.

stuff for us to do with the question is yes but no yes the chess but. everyone that is. i played for many clubs over the years so i know the game and so i got. the ball isn't only about what happens on the pitch for the final school it's about the passion from the families it's the age of the super money. spend spend be true to the twenty million. it's an experience like nothing else i want to be true so i want to share what i think what i know about the beautiful guy a great chance for. peace to.

israel deploys tanks and snipers to the gaza border worsfold at least five palestinians killed one of them a child and a massive patient protest. coming up to you could just say former russian spies said ok script is no longer in a critical condition following last month's poisoning in salzburg as the u.k. media continues to speculate where the nerve agents may have been produced. former u.s. intelligence officers throw their support behind the founder of wiki leaks he's been full of all flying by the ecuadorian embassy in london comments about cuts and. get her story and government gives.