the united kingdom will now expel twenty three russian diplomats who have been identified as undeclared intelligence officers. welcome to or going underground special on a historic day for london moscow relations in the wake of the atrocity in wiltshire in the south west of england in a moment we'll hear from the chair of politics society and political journalism at the university of sheffield professor pearce what robinson but now i'm joined by broadcaster and former liberal democrat member of parliament there but oh pick them big that's just start with what you thought of tourism is performance in the bus when i was in parliament it was let's use the going word today robust she made it absolutely clear that she's pointing the finger of blame for the incident and souls free all at russia not just at russia but at the russian state as she left no doubt at all that she's made her judgment a point when we still haven't had any legal investigation no formal inquiry but quite clearly the prime minister and her advice is have decided this is the time to

take on putin directly and try to provoke some kind of either a justification a confession or denial. security state getting more efficient than when the atrocity happened in mayfair in central london because jeremy corbyn. from him in his books people they still seem to be expressing some doubt over the w m d use yes well there's a big schism going on in british politics now on the one side you've got the government and some labor m.p.'s saying well russia is to blame take our t.v. off air let's get the sanctions going and then you've got a more cautious jeremy corbyn who spokes person previously said and i think opens back this up well this is a time to build our relationship with russia rather than simply to condemn russia as guilty for this crime we can assume it was a crime i think that's undisputable but to simply say we you know. enough now to

take the expulsion of twenty three russian diplomats from the russian embassy as a proportionate response is is more than corbin would have done and i think many other people who'd also be concerned that we're compromising the rule of law and the concept of innocent until proven guilty in the interests of political expedience obvious is the security services that are doing the talking or at least this channel hasn't been mentioned even by that labor m.p. we heard from who's been on this show should say who's been previously calling for us to be banned probably not help them by cuts austerity cuts in our diplomatic services well there's the debate about whether britain is adequately equipped in diplomatic terms and the suggestion has been particularly from people like corbin that those cuts are causing harm because it's compromising the ability to have the very kind of dialogue that could prevent these kinds of escalating tensions in the first place but then there's another kind of austerity going on the chemical biological rate the radiological or nuclear or c b r n regiment which was

previously commissioned to deal with exactly this kind of situation is being cut back that's in my view a very valid criticism no wonder we're really talking about there a limit just up there for a second we're now joined from the german capital berlin where with the chair of politics society political journalism or the university of sheffield professor peers or robinson pearce we can hear me ok you don't. i mean what did you think of m.p.'s slamming jeremy corbyn for appeasement on this whole russia debacle well i think caution and looking pretty evident and trying to establish the truth behind what happened and the truth behind this novacek no gration is absolutely essential at this point in time and you know just going back in into recent history we've been here before where the british government has made very bold certain claims of course in the run up to the iraq. war with respect to

weapons of mass destruction and as we know now after years of inquiries and research into it we know that information and intelligence was manipulated and distorted and was used to present iraq as a much greater threat than it actually was so we've been here before where statements bold statements have been made of certainty about banned weapons just because of that absolutely reasonable and sensible but just or is allowed to have doesn't mean that we can never believe a british government again when it's told by the security services of this country that that a country a state has murdered people on earth soil surely we know the lessons from iraq tell us that information can get distorted especially in around of high politics and when there are high stakes and there is no reason not to least entertain a possibility that that is something which is occurring here so in this situation what we need to do kerry is not simply to accept what we're being told and believe

what we're being told as we did in the run up to the iraq war and we all know how about ended up we need to actually start questioning scrutinizing and drilling down in order to test the claims which should being made the job of parliament as to job of citizens in a democracy is not something to believe what you're being told is to question your government then with where the ages is it's particularly liable to group think now yes i think your analysis is absolutely right here i remember being poor riot for opposing the war in iraq for having the or dust city to agree with my then leader in the lib dems charles kennedy who said that this war was being conducted under false prospect vectors of course what we now know is that was completely true it's interesting how you enjoy that in germany corbett no more than the security services of this country haven't and as a. the taxi driver in iraq for me with this information exactly the right question

the security services probably did know the truth and they probably did advise well in my opinion i'm expressing my opinion in my view they did advise tony blair actually i would challenge and i think that retrospectively we can see that the security services were more cautious than the politicians but where it goes wrong is when there's a political expedience at stake there was clearly that going on under tony blair when he decided to support america with the in my view unjustified incursion into iraq and it's quite possible we're seeing history repeating itself now with the finger of accusation being pointed towards russia without any substantive evidence being shared with the public ok well that pierce do you accept this claim from russia the under the o.p.c. w treaty they should have actually given a ten day deadline not a twenty four hour one and and where it is not. listed in o p c w perhaps because

it's too complicated a chemical weapon or i think that's the million dollar question is why does you know p c w not have not been trucked listed why are these questions of minutes report from robin black which was written in two thousand and sixteen she's very recently which states that there's no independent confirmation of the structures of the properties of this novacek nerve agent and given the o.p.c. doubly should nobody's things that should be a listed it should be a scheduled compound and if that's not the case then we really have to start asking the questions as to exactly what is this. what where it comes from we actual process through which it has come to be understood as an actual nerve agent which is being used because that throws up all sorts of questions what you see w. says and what blank. and this is

a time to ask the questions we've been here not to go on about iraq but we've been here where informants defectors have passed information to the intelligence services and then that has been seized upon and it's been used to exaggerate in that case the threat from iraq but it will likely get a lot of specially you know we obviously britain is going to currently still there in a war in iraq what about syria because this story in wiltshire has moved syria off the front pages something apparently is still going on in good the russians are saying that it is the u.k. linked islam is of ghouta that he have the chemical weapons linked to. this leave to the government here in governing. i think it's extremely important that everyone parliament and the british public to start to understand what is going on at the moment in a broader geo political context and you're absolutely right to highlight the issue

of syria here the west at this point in time appears to be facing strategic failure in syria in terms of the military operations in the attempts to overthrow the assad regime and what we're beginning to see in a city and occasions coming out of the areas which the syrian arab army moved into are for example fines of chlorine which have been held by the rebel groups now of course we've had this constant political charge a constant charge being leveled sat and the russian government and he said regime for the use of banned weapons in the syrian conflict but we know that the rebels have been using them as world arguably. we don't know about their weapons there we don't know about the weapons in wilcher would you goes over don't know would you go to the moment visit here in london and it is this crazy the worst but he's on his way to washington and this is part all this things are. but of

a war with iran and of course russia would be dragged into anything for gratian of their what if you want to look at western policies from policy over the last sixteen seventeen years and this was confirmed by the chilcote report there's been a series of attempts to change regimes to engage in overt and covert operations iran was listed in the chilcote reporting rand was and syria were mentioned in conversations between george bush and tony blair where no discussing went to hit various countries and i think if we step back a little bit and look at the broad contours of the last seventeen years we can see western military operations and regime change operations pointing towards are ultimately the end goal for according to some people being iran and yes we might well be saying this is part of a broader attempt to try to corner to try and pressure russia in the context of the west either trying to persist with its military strategy of hope of what they want

to do perhaps end up we're going around and this is all part of that broader dry of propaganda drive to enable further conflict and further military engagement possibly ending in iran and this is extremely dangerous territory to be in this is this is you know running us down the road towards a potential confrontation with russia in the middle east and this is something again that politicians in parliament and british public should be thinking about when we are focusing upon events and souls we should also be thinking about how this might be relating to a broader drive to demonize russia and possibly take is to appoint a military confrontation certainly in syria with russia and this is none of this is to be taken lightly that this is a time for calm serious deliberation calm heads and i have to mean i'm not hearing much about what i was hearing in the commons today well the minister of defense is telling this program. it's referring us to the chilcot inquiry as regards any of

allegations like this you would know of being wild professor because robinson was speaking there you kind of seriously compare what is happening in this sleepy schools great town with all of this massive geopolitical gameplay but thoughts exactly forget exactly how pay is as right you described it elements and why this is so dangerous let's get back to core facts here no one has yet shed any conclusive evidence to connect the russian state with the souls pre-atomic it was an attack that's a really central page i think she doesn't use the attack because of it because of nato i'm going to tell you the right way this is as there is no alternative conclusion other than that the russian state was culpable for the attempted murder and for threatening the lives of other u.k. since it's about so so the reason no other alternative reason they don't use the word attack is because of the connotations for nato but that's on the big us and as

you rightly pointed out there's no doubt what the prime minister is saying has a second fact and pace is rightly pointed out time for the second bag right that visit because robert said thank you after the break we'll be joined in this special episode of going underground by the chairman of britain's oldest conservative think tank the bow group ben harris critic. who of them so much. good you who've moved before. much of those who heard the food you are. really. will show you knew you were there.

i mean it's a good looking. more muslim also there's also a good few films good cool. video to show also look i do the same you the u.k. show historic move to or you should go. to starbucks to get the two needed oh it was a little the most they'd say look it is it's. just ashton understands to just meet the mashed on truck stop the president can please control this project until. the three of the dishes because listening to snoop come up with new yorkers are those the girls are with you or your supporters to your station shouldn't feel you should cook door for the one who's doing.

better but if survival guide ecstacy yes i'm all going to start sampling at least thirty first's. be sure it's still there you don't forget a back pack yeah. oh heck no it is a repatriation team look at the rest in seven years. hell of a separate class kaiser report. welcome back i'm still here with regard to let me to begin this measures that are going underground reacting to u.k. prime minister tourism is decision to give twenty three russian diplomats a week to get out of the country we're also joined by ben harris quiney he's the chairman of the u.k.'s oldest conservative think tank the bow group welcome back to you and welcome to you ben you think jayson mays done nearly enough to address this atrocity in southwestern england well it's nothing i think that we didn't expect it's the usual procedural by the numbers approach and i think in the last week what

we've what we've seen is some very interesting foreign policy developments as the result of nontraditional approaches i'm talking about trump diplomats. what i would have done i think is presented more information to the public. and invited the russians as theresa may did to comment on that. and then if the response was unsatisfactory i think i would have separated this issue from what we've seen in the past on russia syria crimea stuff that really had nothing to do with britain and made the point that this is different because a british police officer has been injured. and approached in that way and then take perhaps harsher measures if russia wasn't forthcoming with an answer or do you think i interrupted you with the fact that it was about geopolitics but it's

relevant to this is the problem here that reason may has issued ninth ultimatum which if it's ignored she really hasn't got a stick to russia with in other words she has now created for herself a problem which russia can simply ride out and thought that undermined too is a maze credibility is a strong leader well i don't think it's a problem for theresa may but i also don't think it will see any shift in the position which is really what we're talking about donald trump's approach was. very unusual we had all of the commentators saying that this is extremely dangerous we're going to have world war three and actually as regards all of korea so yes and so this sort of procedural we're going we're not going to attend the world cup we're going to send home twenty three diplomats that it's not going make any difference to either i'll give you the workshop would make it limbo number we don't really know we're not boycotting the world cup as a football team we're not sending ministers i mean who cares if there's a minister at the world cup and although i don't think anyone in britain is

loveable here but treating be there would that make a big yes i know i think england the football team should be there because the world cup has nothing to do with what's what's going on with the with this poisoning the world cup as a football tournament. as you're respecting the old bow group history of south africa and that. would go yeah i but i believe people in britain they realise the importance of this draws that yes but i don't i don't i don't think that this should be allowed to overlap into sports but the procedural response that teresa mayes engaged in as you say is not going to shift russian policy does a little bit differently and i think with what i think but i think there's a more important point it's not going to shift the decline in relations between the u.k. and russia that this is my issue and i've made this point already on the program that the evidence is shaky there may be evidence but i haven't seen it the public hasn't seen it we've been told that. that the prime minister has seen it

on the road and that if he denies insults jumps at his door we haven't seen the evidence either i think the british public should have been veiled of the information that the u.k. government is apparently acting on i don't think there's any national reason a.j. it's as national security considerations as she said also about the outcome of the living public inquiry these are far too secret for the british public to. safely i would completely disagree with i think if you're going to go no if you'll get well i think when you're talking about the use of merge nerve agents by a foreign government. those sorts of excuses for not revealing why the u.k. government is taking the action it is taking leads to suspicion because a green light is and m i five is just next door and we see that it would put it into view what do you think of that the that they have evidence that they tell us this is exactly the point ben's making exactly the point that has to be made and it

has to be made repeatedly because it's being ignored by the government we as citizens how in a free country i thought have the right to expect the government to justify this tremendously provocative measure against russia then isn't saying that men as you're saying lines now believe you now believe the security services i'm saying on the balance of the evidence that. this was of course the russian spy that was that was targeted is the nerve agent was extremely complex there are only a few number of states that could produce such a thing one of sixteen states right but but you know you've got to consider also the motive so i think there is certainly there is certainly evidence that would point one towards russia but clearly the u.k. government is saying and we have all this evidence that you can possibly see well i think of this way that you didn't support the iraq war you could see through that

how come you had to raise it may when she says there is no alternative conclusion other than that the russian state was was culpable well i don't agree that there is no other conclusion i agree that the evidence has to be laid bare my point is is that if the all of the evidence does indeed point to russian intervention then serious measures need to be taken so this is where i would differ from a jeremy corbin's. saying well you know we shouldn't really be moving towards war anything like that i think i'm not an open saying i'm going to want to war with us on this and nobody really wants to know i think no one's calling for war luck or of calling it cyber warfare actually came up with the threat of a cyber attack which is pretty dangerous because i reckon the russians know quite a lot about that they want to escalate it that's a very good way of doing it but colvin seems to be saying is let's just hold off he's saying a little bit like you've said that we need to be careful here get the evidence out which is what we're both saying and then act accordingly whereas what too is amazed

on is sees he's jumped the gun she said think of mines pointing at russia and now we have to act which means that she's extended two or three diplomatic steps. to west nile relationship with i think the diplomatic steps of the problem jeremy corbin's past record indicates that you know he is a peacenik by any estimation is george where is where is level is is yes where is where is on the realist neo liberal interventionists i don't believe we should be traipsing across the world getting involved in conflicts where we have no business but when it comes to the injury the serious injury of the british citizen i think we do have business i think what it is we do have is to find out who it is and resumes as we know who it is yes i think i've i would come back on limits point though that you know we should wait and wait and wait i think the fact that there has been serious injuries for british citizens and also there is genuine feeling in the british public at large that something should be done about this present some

of it see i'm just saying that the the method it's the research. using are old and tired and point to that deferential age where we the public were told that the state has all the information they can possibly be told i did said. if you are some fan of the donald trump new rail quality you know seriously saying oh yeah be really tough on the outside of russia and threaten russia militarily which. what drawn buggy billy appeared to do before this amazing breakthrough with relations between the west and north korea indeed fire and fury the title of this this book was based upon trumps threats to north korea which the president repeatedly denies any i mean he had a gauge right but he doesn't deny saying we will bring fire and fury which of course the the much of the establishment media dismissed and lampoon at the time but has now led to. some quite significant results in terms of threatening war and

bellicose statements yesterday the russian embassy released a statement saying that threat shouldn't be made against a state with nuclear arms now the united kingdom at that time had made any threats relating to conflict over his salami into nuclear no i don't think i think that's an escalation especially when you look at diplomatic language which is very controlled and very new wants to terms of what it is say have called this a hostile action the twenty three diplomats they have but i think the progression to talk about nuclear armaments is a further it's of aggression but but i think. the problem with the wall of this is that everything leading up to it has been to corner the american phrase and nothing burka all of the stuff about russian agents you know i'm supposed to be a russian agent not a fraud is a russian agent donald trump is a russian asia i mean mustn't a very interesting year at the k.g.b. that year where they recruiters all but. all of media in the united states appears

to believe that that that is the case right and i think it's the old adage of the boy who cried wolf that all of this stuff that has gone in the past has come to nothing has been a load of nonsense by feeble establishment that want to use it as an excuse for their defeat and breck's it or the defeat of hillary clinton another that's really interesting to me because it seems to me that there is motive on the side of the british government to try to look tough like you're saying that talks many people feel embroiled lots of other problems with this them all in domestic policy here's a chance for treason made to start looking strong and yet as you've said a minute or two ago she's done this really fast where i would disagree with you as perhaps that there isn't an urgency in my view to be the judge and jury now there was an urgency to get the medical treatment for the victims but in any court case it can take months or years why do we have to do this so quickly when now as arsons

already pointed out this has led to an escalated response from the russians because i think national security issues by their very nature require an urgent response we don't know if there are other potential nerve agents out there we don't know if. our it is as we call it appears to be saying we're actually still sure it is the russians there's just finally go to the u.n. security council what do you make of i don't know whether you think that will be an imaginative or avenue pursued by the british government but there is i'm a very quick to say she's going to call the security meeting about wilcher. i don't think it's imaginative it's whole and to go back to your point about theresa may looking tough talking tough well this doesn't appear to me to be looking tough or talking tough this is a procedural response it's not going to move the the russian state position at all and when donald trump is set the bar foreign fury i think the dismissal of twenty three diplomats is not going to do anything to move the dial and we have to i mean

the the westminster bubble. is a point often made about what goes on here and the deaf ear to the rest of the country i think if you walked into a pub and asked most people you know he's dismissing twenty three diplomats a tough response i don't think it is i think the the procedural language used. and the approach that teresa mayes taking is an imaginative and won't look tough and the irony in this situation in my view is that it's the house to back down which simply means doing nothing more because if he doesn't escalate it looks like he's frozen there when it could be jeremy corbin for having taken a more statesman like approach for urging caution and then being able to turn round to the country say i told you so but of course gerry go is getting lambasted by everyone in the mainstream media in the president's bottom interest that if i and others who voted against ceroc war it was

a slow burn but ultimately those who opposed the war and up smelling of roses. ben thank you. hope you enjoyed that episode of going underground for my latest season will be back on the eleventh of april for a brand new season of going underground but you can still keep in touch with us while we're away on facebook twitter and instagram season. then what i want to be very well there but i'll go and. play. boys will pull you out of. them as it would a bit and i didn't do it will always be the good is it also. or no poem to hold. on a promise he should be able. to. keep it or don't or don't let you people

come up to the group. to. come on then you're not yet about the how i live and i'm mad at them and the minimum time because i'm. not dead was alluded to but oh november a bit if i say i love them that down to the point about non of it but i will being as high as it is about. i i. really. like.

has the double agent script on his daughter begin to recover off the last months of . his niece from russia is refused a visa to brazil. speaks with the former director general of the international organization for the prohibition of chemical weapons. case also how he was pushed from his seat allegedly because he was against the u.s. invasion of iraq. i got a phone call from washington said that i just told me that i should resign and said your management style is not agreeable to washington. also this hour the u.s. brooks a u.n. security council move to investigate the deaths of protesters on the gaza border offer at least nine palestinians were killed in.