so there's a big schism going on in british politics now on the one side you've got the government and some labor m.p.'s saying well russia is to blame take our t.v. off air that skep the sanctions going and then you've got a more cautious jeremy corbyn who spokes person previously said and i think opens back this up well this is a time to build our relationship with russia rather than simply to condemn russia as guilty for this crime that we can assume it was a crime i think that that's undisputable but to simply say we know enough now to take the expulsion of twenty three russian diplomats from the russian embassy as a proportionate response is is more than corbin would have done and i think many other people who'd also be concerned that we're compromising the rule of law and the concept of innocent until proven guilty in the interests of political expedience obvious is the security services that are doing the talking at least this channel hasn't been mentioned even by that labor m.p.

we heard from has been on this show should say who's been previously calling for us to be banned probably not help them by cuts or staring cuts in our diplomatic services well there's the debate about whether britain is adequately equipped in diplomatic terms and the suggestion has been particularly from people like coburn that those cuts are causing harm because it's compromising the ability to have the very kind of dialogue that could prevent these kinds of escalating tensions in the first place but then there's another kind of austerity going on the chemical biological rate the radiological or nuclear or c b r n regiment which was previously commissioned to deal with exactly this kind of situation is being cut back that's in my view a very valid criticism no wonder we're really talking about there were limits just up there for a second we're now joined from the german capital berlin where with the chair of politics society political journalism or the university of sheffield professor peers or robinson pierce we can hear we. you don't. i mean what did you

think of m.p.'s slamming jeremy corbyn for appeasement on this whole russia the buckler well i think caution and looking for the evidence and trying to establish the truth behind what happened and the truth behind this novacek nerve agent is absolutely essential at this point in time and you know just going back in into recent history we've been here before where british government has made very bold certain claims of course in the run up to the iraq war with respect to weapons of mass destruction and as we know now after years of inquiries and research into it we know that information and intelligence was manipulated and distorted and was used to present iraq is a much greater threat than it actually was so we've been here before where statements bold statements have been made of certainty about banned weapons and just because of that absolutely reasonable and sensible but just or is allowed to

have doesn't mean that we can never believe a british government again when it is told by the security services of this country that that a country a state has murdered people on earth soil surely we know to lessons from iraq tell us that information can get distorted especially in around of high politics when there are high stakes and there is no reason not to least entertain a possibility that that is something which is occurring here so in this situation what we need to do ok is not simply to accept what we're being told and believe what we're being told as we did in the run up to the iraq war and we all know how about ended up we need to actually start questioning scrutinizing and drilling down in order to test the claims which should being made the job of parliament as the job of citizens in a democracy is not simply to believe what you're being told is to question your government then the the deer. is it particularly liable to groupthink now

yes i think your analysis is absolutely right here i remember being poor riot for opposing the war in iraq for having the or docility to agree with my then leader in the lib dems charles kennedy who said that this war was being conducted on a false prospect practice of course what we now know is that was completely true it's interesting how you and charles kennedy and jeremy corbyn know more than the security services of this country and and as it turned. taxi driver in iraq for giving this information exactly the right question the security services probably did know the truth and they probably did advise over well in my opinion i'm expressing my pain in my view they did advise tony blair actually i would challenge that and i think that retrospectively we can see that the security services were more cautious than the politicians but where it goes wrong is when there's a political expedience at stake there was clearly that going on under tony blair

when he decided to support america with the in my view unjustified incursion into iraq and it's quite possible we're seeing history repeating itself now with the finger of accusation being pointed towards russia without any substantive evidence being shared with the public ok well that pierce do you accept this claim from russia the under the o.p.c. w treaty they should have actually given a ten day deadline not a twenty four hour one and and where it is not. listed in o.p.c. w. perhaps because it's too complicated a chemical weapon or i think that's the million dollar question is why does yo p c w not have not been chopped listed why are you questions of minutes report from robin black which was written in two thousand and sixteen she's very recently which states that there's no independent confirmation of the structures at. properties of

this novacek nerve agent and given the o.p.c. doubly should nobody's things it should be a listed it should be a scheduled compound and if that's not the case then we really have to start asking the questions as to exactly what is this. what where it comes from we actual process through which it has come to be understood as an actual nerve agent which is being used because that throws up all sorts of questions what the c.w. says and what black said and this is the time to ask the questions we've been here not to go on about iraq but we've been here where informants defectors have passed information to the intelligence services and then that has been seized upon and it's been used to exaggerate in that case the threat from iraq it will likely go down to earth specially you know we obviously britain is going to go and he's still there in

a war in iraq what about syria because this story in wiltshire has moved syria off the front pages something apparently is still going on in good the russians are saying that this is the u.k. linked islam is of goods or that he have the chemical weapons linked to. his sleeve to the government here in governing. i think it is extremely important for everyone parliament and the british public to start to understand what is going on at the moment in a broader geo political context and you're absolutely right to highlight the issue of syria here the west at this point in time appears to be facing strategic failure in syria in terms of the military operations in the attempts to overthrow the assad regime and what we're beginning to see in a city indications coming out of the areas which the syrian arab army moved into are for example fines of chlorine which have been held by the rebel groups now of course we've had to see. constant political charge

a constant charge being leveled sad and the russian government decide regime for the use of banned weapons in the syrian conflict but we know that the rebels have been using them as well arguably. we don't know about the weapons there we don't know about the weapons in wilcher would you goes over don't know would you go the moment been visit here in london and it is this crazy the worst but he's on his way to washington and this is part all this things about of a war with iran and of course russia would be dragged into anything conflagration of that well if you want to look at western policies from policy over the last sixteen seventeen years and this was confirmed by the chilcote report there's been a series of attempts to change regimes to engage in overt and covert operations iran was listed in the chilcote reporting rand was and syria were mentioned in conversations between george bush and tony blair where no discussing when to hit

various countries and i think if we step back a little bit and look at the broad contours of the last seventeen years we can see western military operations and regime change operations pointing towards are ultimately the end goal for according to some people being iran and yes we might well be saying this is part of a broader attempt to try to corner to try and pressure russia in the context of the west either trying to persist with its military strategy of hope of what they want to do perhaps end up with iran and this is all part of that broader dry use of propaganda drive to enable further conflict and further military engagement possibly ending in iran and this is extremely dangerous territory to be and this is this is you know running us down the road towards a potential confrontation with russia in the middle east and this is something again that. politicians in parliament and british public should be thinking about

when we're focusing upon events and souls we should also be thinking about how this might be relating to a broader drive to demonize russia and possibly take us to a point to military confrontation certainly in syria with russia and this is none of this is to be taken lightly this is a time for calm serious deliberation calm heads and i have to mean i'm not hearing much about what i was hearing in the commons today well the minister of defense is telling this program to its referring us to the chilcot inquiry as regards any of allegations like this you are not being wild professor because robinson was speaking there you kind of seriously compare what is happening in this sleepy souls breed town with all of this massive geopolitical game playing but that's exactly thorgerd exactly how piers as right you described it elements in why this is so

dangerous let's get back to core facts here no one has yet shared any conclusive evidence to connect the russian state with the salt spray attack it was an attack that's a really central i think she doesn't use the attack because of it because of nature are going to tell you the right way this is there is no alternative conclusion other than that the russian state was culpable for the attempted murder and for threatening the lives of other you case it's like so the reason no other alternative reason they don't use the word attack is because of the connotations for nato but that's an ambiguous and as you rightly pointed out there's no doubt what the prime minister is saying here's a second fact and piers is rightly pointed out for the second visit because robert thank you after the break we'll be joined in this special episode of going underground by the chairman of britain's oldest conservative think tank the bow group ben harris quickly.

and there are some was so much at all of them mama. i don't mind little bit of that over a minute with. the old a little frisky. i'm not critical of the whole but if they're going to be chilcote you know. sort of. what i mean yanukovych would think he's going to pitch so forcefully. the question is three yes but oh yes the chess but. by the west of here for everyone that is for you cox involved with the.

about your sudden passing i've only just learnt you worry yourself in taking your last wrong turn. to you as we all knew it would i tell you i'm sorry i could so i write these last words in hopes to put to rest these things that i never got off my chest. i remember when we first met my life turned on each. but then my feeling started to change you talked about more like it was again still some more fun to view those that didn't like to question our arc and i secretly promised to never be like it said one does not need a funeral the same as one enters my mind it's consumed with death this one quite different to speak to now because there are no other takers. to blame that

mainstream media has met its maker. who wouldn't remember who you are when you don't. see the teachers who are. there to corporate it. what they mean not through only dead space to. make to. love to know they. said. similar claiming to know servant is mostly that to. alex you speak french. most of the year while that same year the english send belphegor to noone was born it is talk of the sun is busy at the mill towards your tastes. welcome back i'm still here with delimiter begin this special episode of going on the ground reacting to your gay prime minister tourism is decision to give twenty

three russian diplomats a week to get out of the country we're also joined by ben there as quickly he's. the chairman of the u.k.'s oldest conservative think tank the bow group welcome back to you and welcome to you ben you think jayson mays done nearly enough to address this atrocity in southwestern england well it's nothing i think that we didn't expect it's the usual procedural by the numbers approach and i think in the last week what we've what we've seen is some very interesting foreign policy developments as the result of nontraditional approaches i'm talking about trumpeting a career diplomats. well what i would have done i think is presented more information to the public. and invited the russians as to recently did to comment on that. and then if the response was on satisfactory i think i would have separated this issue from what we've seen in the past on russia syria crimea stuff

that really had nothing to do with britain and made the point that this is different because a british police officer has been injured. and approached in that way and then take perhaps harsher measures if russia wasn't forthcoming with an answer or do you think i don't interrupt you with the fact that it was about geopolitics but it's relevant to this is the problem here that reason may has it not ultimatum which if it's ignored she really hasn't got a stick to russia with in other words she has now created for herself a problem which russia can simply ride out and thought that undermine his amaze credibility is a strong leader well i don't think it's a problem for theresa may but i also don't think it will see any shift in the position which is really what we're talking about it donald trump's approach was. very unusual we had all of the commentators saying that this is extremely dangerous we can have world war three and actually it has occurred as all of korea so yes and

so this sort of procedural we're going we're not going to attend the world cup we're going to send home twenty three diplomats that it's not the make any difference to either be the world would make his own number we don't really know we're not boycotting the world cup as a football team we're not sending ministers i mean who cares if there's a minister at the world cup and russia although i don't think anyone in britain is loveable here but treating them and be there and would that make a big yes i know i think england the football team should be there because the world cup has nothing to do with what's what's going on with the with this poisoning the world cup is a football tournament. have your respect in the old bo group history of south africa at the end of it. would go yeah i but i believe people in britain they realize the importance of this address that yes but i don't i don't think that this should be allowed to overlap into sports but the procedural response that teresa mayes engaged in as you say is not going to shift. russian policy does

a little bit differently and i think with what i think but i think there's a more important point it's not going to shift the decline in relations between the u.k. and russia that's this is my issue and i've made this point already on the program that the evidence is shaky there may be evidence but i haven't seen it the public hasn't seen it we've been told that. the prime minister seen it on the road and as he denies insults johnson has no we haven't seen the evidence either i think the british public should have been veiled of the information that the u.k. government is apparently acting on i don't think there's any national reason a.j. it's as national security considerations as she said also about the outcome of the living code public inquiry these are far too secret for the british public to comprehend safely i would completely disagree with i think if you're going to go no if you're going well i think when you're talking about the use of merging nerve

agents by a foreign government. those sorts of excuses for not revealing why the u.k. government is taking the action it is taking leads to suspicion because agree right is and m i five is just next door and there we see then it would put it into view of what you think of the they have evidence that they tell us this is exactly the point ben's making exactly the point that has to be made and it has to be made repeatedly because it's being ignored by the government we as citizens how in a free country i thought have the right to expect the government to justify this tremendously proud. measure it against russia then isn't saying that men as you're saying lines now believe you now believe the security services i'm saying in the balance of the evidence that. this was of course russian spy that was that was targeted is the nerve agent was extremely complex there are only a few number of states that could produce such

a thing one of sixteen states right but but you know you've got to consider also the motive so i think there is certainly there is certainly evidence that would point one towards russia but clearly the u.k. government is saying and we have all this evidence that you can't possibly see well i think of this waiting you didn't support the iraq war you could see through that how come you had to raise me when she said there is no alternative conclusion other than that the russian state was was culpable well i don't agree that there is no other conclusion i agree that the evidence has to be laid bare my point is is that if the all of the evidence does indeed point to russian intervention then serious measures need to be taken so this is where i would differ from a jeremy corbin saying well you know we should really be moving towards war anything like that i think i'm not an op in saying i'm going to want to war with russia just on this and nobody really wants to know i think that now is calling for

war what color are calling the cyber warfare actually involving the threat of a cyber attack which is pretty dangerous because i reckon the russians know quite a lot about that they want to escalate it that's a very good way of doing it but coburn seems to be saying is let's just hold off he's saying a little bit like you've said that we need to be careful here get the evidence out which is what webre saying and then act accordingly whereas what too is amazed on is he's he's jumped the gun she said think of men's pointing at russia and now we have to act which means that she's excluded two or three diplomatic steps it simply serves to west nile relationship with i think the diplomatic steps of the problem. jeremy corbin's past record indicates that he is a peacenik by any estimation is joy where is where is latvia's is yes where is where is on the realist neo liberal interventionists i don't believe we should be traipsing across the world getting involved in conflicts where we have no business but when it comes to the injury the serious injury of the british citizen i think

we do have business i think what it is we do have is to find out who it is and resumes as we know who it is yes i think i've i would come back on limits point though that you know we should wait and wait and wait i think the fact that there has been serious injuries to a british citizen and also there is genuine feeling in the british public at large that something should be done about this present some of it see i'm just saying that the method it's that to resubmit. using are old and tired and point to that deferential age where we the public were told that the state has all the information they can possibly be told. if you are thumb fan of the donald trump the new rail quality you know series the thing oh yeah be really tough on the outside of russia and threaten russia militarily which is what the drawn buggy bully appeared to do before this amazing breakthrough with relations between the west and north korea indeed fire and fury the title of this this book was based upon trumps

threats to north korea which the president repeatedly denies any i may have to gauge right but he doesn't deny saying we will bring fire and fury which of course the the much of the establishment media dismissed and lampoon at the time but has now led to some some quite significant results in terms of threatening war and bellicose statements yesterday the russian embassy released a statement saying that threat shouldn't be made against a state with nuclear arms now the united kingdom at that time had made any threats relating to conflict in. i mean to nuclear no i don't think i think that's an escalation especially when you look at diplomatic language which is very controlled and very new wants to in terms of what it is say have called this a hostile action the twenty three diplomats they have but i think the progression to talk about nuclear armaments is a further it's of aggression. but i think. the problem with all of this

is that everything leading up to it has been to corner the american phrase and nothing burka all of the stuff about russian agents you know i'm supposed to be a russian agent not a fraud is a russian agent donald trump is a russian age i mean mustn't a very interesting year at the k.g.b. that year where they recruiters all but. all of media in the united states appears to believe that that that is the case right and i think it's the old adage of the boy who cried wolf that all of this stuff that has gone in the past has come to nothing has been a load of nonsense by feeble establishment that want to use it as an excuse for their defeat and breck's it or the defeat of hillary clinton another that's really interesting to me because it seems to me that there is motive on the side of the british government to try to look tough like you're saying that talks many people feel embroiled lots of other problems with this them all in domestic policy here's

a chance for treason made to start looking strong and yet as you've said a minute or two ago she's done this really fast where i would disagree with you as perhaps that there isn't an urgency in my view to be the judge and jury now there was an urgency to get the medical treatment for the victims but in any court case it can take months or years why do we have to do this so quickly when now as i've since already pointed out this has led to an escalated response from the russians because i think national security issues by their very nature require an urgent response we don't know if there are other potential nerve agents out there we don't know if criticism or it is as we call it appears to be saying we're actually still sure it is the russians there's just finally go to the u.n. security council what do you make of i don't know whether you think that will be an imaginative or avenue pursued by the british government but there is i'm a very quick to say she's going to call the security meeting about wilcher i don't

think it's imaginative it's all and to go back to your point about theresa may looking tough talking tough well. this doesn't appear to me to be looking tough or talking tough this is a procedural response it's not going to move the russian state position at all and when donald trump is set the bar foreign fury i think the dismissal of twenty three diplomats is not going to do anything to move the dial and we have to i mean the the westminster bubble. is a point often made about what goes on here and the deaf ear to the rest of the country i think if you walked into a pub and asked most people you know is dismissing twenty three diplomats a tough response i don't think it is i think that the the procedural language used . and the approach that teresa mayes taking is an imaginative and one look tough the irony in this situation in my view is that if she has to back down which simply

means doing nothing more because if she doesn't escalate it looks like she's frozen there when it could be jeremy corbin for having taken a more statesman like approach for urging caution and then being able to turn round to the country say i told you so but of course gerry go is getting lambasted by everyone in the mainstream media in the president's bottom interest but if i and others who voted against iraq war it was a slow burn but ultimately those who opposed the war and up smelling of roses. ben thank you. hope you enjoyed that episode of going underground for my latest season will be back on the eleventh of april for a brand new season of going underground but you can still keep in touch with us while we're away on facebook twitter and instagram season. then what about regulating what i call go out. or you will pull you out of the.

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a van driver runs into a crowd in the german city of killing two people and injuring twenty four taking his own life. nice of form a double agent says again ask the british prime minister to let her see her poisoned relatives after being denied a visa. and a former head of the global chemical weapons watchdog speaks to r.t. about the script case and describes how he was forced from office for opposing the iraq war i got a phone call from john bolton from washington said that i just told me that i should resign said your management style is not the washington. post journalist voice concerns over a plan by the u.s. department of homeland.