hello and welcome to cross talk where all things are considered i'm peter lavelle the drive towards war against syria is unmistakable the pretext is still another alleged chemical attack as usual no evidence is presented as usual conclusions are drawn before an independent investigation but this time there is a difference syria can defend itself and has powerful allies we live in very dangerous times.

stocking syria i'm joined by my guest joe lauria in washington he's the editor in chief of consortium news dot com and author of how i lost by hillary clinton with a forward by joining us also in washington we have michael maloof he is a former senior security policy analyst in the office of secretary of defense and in new york we have richard murphy he is a former u.s. career ambassador to syria and currently an adjunct scholar at the middle east institute or across the rules in effect that means he can jump in anytime you want i always appreciate let me go to joe first in washington it seems to me that you know we have we have as president somebody very different than ran as president as little as a week ago donald trump made a very public announcement that we'd be withdrawing from syria fast forward up the last few days or so it looks like he's being forced to stay there even if he doesn't want to stay. there we have an entire chorus of the media driving for war

the deep state is on board of course john bolton is in place and i have to make one exception at least tucker carlson know brit fox at least decided to express his dissent here where are we joe joe where does this all stand go ahead well the fact that he wanted to redress from syria makes it even less likely that the syrian government was behind this attack we are seeing what we've seen for a long long time a pattern of deception by the u.s. government depending on who the enemy of the day is if you want to go to war against spain they blew up the maine the north vietnamese attacked the ship in the gulf of tonkin saddam had w m d russia invaded ukraine shot down a malaysian airline stolen election tried to kill former double agent in britain and now is somehow implicated in this chemical attack this is what governments do but there's a there are also two other parties beside government there is the press some people so governments lie all governments lie some worse than others but the press is job

supposed to filter that and then the public against government lies that we see now our press that's completely obsessed with its own fame with its career ism with vicarious living through vicarious power of government and they are letting the public down so that these investigations these conclusions before investigations begin as you pointed out at the beginning are being are lead to being allowed to stand and this is as you said also said very very dangerous right now richard a is is on the table now a full regime change by use of military force is you think that's in the cards right now go ahead richard in new york i see no evidence that the administration has gone back to a position that you could say was really obama that it was time for assad to step aside i think it's reckons this administration is reconciled itself that this president is likely to stay for a while ok michael but didn't you know that. really square with what we've heard

over the last few days here we have you know nikki haley going off the rail i mean you know i thought samantha power was off the you know had wandered off the road reservation but you know nikki haley haley takes the cake there and then we also in and i joe mentioned we really have the drums of war in the media it seems to me that they really want to box trump in even if he does nothing that he's bluster if he does something it's against international law and he may get in and maybe the law of unintended consequences by getting involved in this war you never know because if you look over the last eighteen years you know these military adventures never end the way they expect to go ahead michael now i think you're right i think that even though president trump wanted to get out. i think that other people who are surrounding him are much more determined that that that he stay and actually. the fact that he that he's you that. john bolton is now the national security

adviser who was the fellow who who really really wanted us to go into iraq on the premise that there was the i think that the administration is slowly turning toward regime change again i think that that's what they're they're going to go after and the whole idea i think as far as a strategic policy if there is one for the united states ultimately is to divide syria yeah well then that's been you know that's the if you can throw in the turkish angle which of course is a completely different program but you know it looks like is partition is really what they're going to settle on here you know joe the interesting thing is is that you know i've never believed that anybody in the u.s. government or politicians think tankers and all of that they don't give a hoot about the syrian people they never have and what i see now is that this is a geo political gambit here we've noticed that russia is being held responsible for this alleged chemical attack which when there is no evidence proof presented to the

to the public which i guess the public is just getting used to it a evidence free foreign policy to go to war go ahead joe. you know i don't think they care very much about the american public either let alone the syrians mean this is another attempt to drag russia into this and russia we don't know if we have no idea why even if there was a chemical attack that hasn't even begun the investigation we hear nikki haley saying we need an investigation but on one side of her mouth and the other side of the mouth syria did it and russia was behind it this is really really not a not a safe situation as you pointed out i do think that they noticed that russia russian backed syrian government was winning this war was practically over that the suburbs of damascus kuta had been a phone on the side of the syrian government since the very beginning of this conflict five years ago is really

a last stronghold after aleppo and it led so i think that that is really zation in the capitals of riyadh and certainly in washington that this was the last and by the rebels themselves this was the last chance if they were going to try to reverse this tide so the rebels needed to bring the u.s. into it which is why it seems like they may very well have been behind and russia by the way behind this attack on russia warned by the way three weeks ago that this could very this could happen that there was a false flag chemical attack in the works i don't know if that's what happened but i certainly don't know that the syrian government did it but that doesn't seem to matter to people at nikki haley's syria did it and now we're going to see an attempt maybe by the united states to get deeply involved in this to reverse the tide and this is the last chance before the syrian government wins this war which they are on the verge of doing richard what national interest does syria hold because i mean you know when trump came almost exactly

a year ago there was an alleged chemical incident and then he ordered a ton tomahawk strike against syria no evidence we know now secretary mabus. came out and said well we don't have any evidence that ever was a chemical attack perpetrated by the syrian government i mean what is wrong with these people i mean year ago we an attack was made illegally against the country soften to here and now i this is like running this bad film i mean why syria has never attacked the united states it is not a threat to american national interest and now we're on the verge of going to war congress doesn't even get involved it abrogates its responsibility to war making i mean what why is syria so important for the united states to get involved militarily please richard in new york and start with your graphic position it is in a key area and the policies it has followed. over the last few years of opening the doors who is. why. come on it's not

just a matter of they are actively assisting the government of iran to hizbollah in lebanon with the aim of. is more important than others over friends it wants ok the united sever lifted one finger to fight terrorism opposite its aided and abetted group part of the problem here and i think again the settled areas as well as into lebanon iran absolutely carriers that influence this concern and help that and they see the point of the iranians as a that i talk to are very concerned and even by tell of even riyadh the assad government or not help them defend themselves is a natural overthrow the government so they invite whoever they are any friends they and any government would do that job so let me jump in here just let me jump in.

but i don't think that it is he's likely down another is that the united states. played for many clubs because i want to share with. me what a military syria you've changed i think the that doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense i think they would want to behavior is that you go trying to enact here i mean this is the problem with military policy because it doesn't really have to work with political outcomes it has certain goals and doesn't really talk about the political well we certainly do policy towards syria staying in why we're two thousand yeah very small number in northeastern syria. we don't think this. personal there are other groups ready to come in but one thing we can

contribute small military presence in the way the truth i mean the door and it will sanction for you with its reconstruction so getting all the people of the gather and helping developing the country that's already off the table you'll be sanctioned ok michael i can so yeah i guess once again gets back to the whole point as as to why the united states if it's trying to resurrect is that unite the sunni's and of east that presence there and control that area and basically partition syria ultimately even though you have a little pocket of but but the united states is supporting has the capability by the way launching cloris russian they have actually admitted that in the past up in aleppo and for this or they have their you know michael it has wonderful that the u.s. government you know you wrap your head around that ok that's pretty that's amazing happened it's happening in the weapons incident which we've seen you supposed to

believe it but joe that they want to give russia a bloody nose they want to give russia a bloody nose in syria the russians have already made it very clear that they will not take those threats lightly ok that's why i'm very very concerned go ahead joe. yes i totally agree with you know we have to understand it's a fiction that united states was fighting isis in syria i believe they were fighting them in iraq i think there were two separate wars we know from this intel defense intelligence agency document from twenty twelve with syria and iran and other militants and shia militias have defeated the assad stays are not the real problem was isis so i think he had i don't know who told him that weather was bad man or whatever or he just got a brilliant idea one morning but that was the right policy that even obama tried to implement if you recall he had kerry try to work out a cooperation with ash russia that putin has for national lottery destroy you know it's you know spoiled the priority you know that the right let me you know the you

know be even when there is a legitimate or quasi legitimate diplomatic attempt it is it's destroyed by these hawks in the military. and now peter yeah and now peter you want to do a drawer to troops if you read a piece in the new yorker about robin wright the generals who are the ones who are supposed to be running the show not the president the we have a civilian form of government here not the generals so again trumps instincts are to say the right thing but he's pulled back by those behind him and this attack coming very for to or to slee would i was about to withdraw the troops looks like the opposite is going to happen you know richard why why does the why is the united states threatening the damascus government when damascus has been doing the heavy lifting to fight isis and what the united states there's every times it goes in there militarily has its forces on the ground it just dull ones that attempt to fight terrorism if you know the u.s. policy is an impediment to fighting isis i don't understand the logic here go ahead

richard in new york. so i have flatly disagree with your assumption about at least the consistency of syrian policy to fight isis what is it is what is the us done in syria for what is wrong with what is what name one thing the united states has done right when it comes to syria one thing. well we tried for many many years to get syria interested in opening up talks with the israelis they were very very reluctant to come anywhere near the line cut off as a last resort in this last years ok i don't have no idea what you actually mean does not there is seven years of civil war a proxy international war it's because assad didn't want to talk to the israelis really no no don't don't misinterpret i'm just saying that. we have tried to do something positive in syria we did work on it to extensively year after year you

didn't get anywhere ok so that's passed but you lead present there under it legally under international law they won't leave i mean who's breaking the law here who's being an animal here ok this is this war could have ended a long time ago if it hadn't been backed by the united states saudi arabia the other gulf countries and israel would have enough michael do you want to jump in it could have been over a long time ago if i hadn't been beaten up those kids down and ok protests there were violence and they were it was from outsiders it's very well documented you know don't tell me you know if this is all peaceniks war you know wandering around you know giving flowers to people goes out to buy one start on day one ok michael you want to jump in. the you know our relationship with the cia are with i'm sorry with with syria actually degraded in two thousand and three when we invaded iraq

the syrians saw that this was going to happen they had they had the back channel with the cia how and when they let this say ok they have helped to a point they did and then that's when they turned to the pentagon just on the eve of the invasion they say don't don't invade we'll while try to work this out we'll leave the state some five thousand troops to go into iraq for you to to look for w m d they saw what would what the outcome will be so everything went to pieces from then that's when assad really turned to iran right at that that's when iran and syria really began to become closer you've got to keep in mind assad is a she is a white so that was normal and this is what upset israel to a great extent our foreign policy in the united states has been to carry out to help implement israel's foreign policy for years and the pentagon was the instrument for doing that ok joe that forty seconds you had to program go ahead joe

. yeah well john bolton began this week his new job nascar to be advisory as a real thing for you ron the iranian presence in syria might be what he ultimately be going after even more than trying to overthrow assad yeah it looks to me that always it's iran always is at the very very center it has been since the revolution in one nine hundred seventy nine and trump and he has surrounded him with a group of people that feel exactly the same way people that lament the the defeat in vietnam that's all the time we have gentlemen many thanks to my guests in washington and in new york and thanks to our viewers for watching us here see you next time and remember ross hospitals. cracking gave americans

a lot of new job opportunities needed to come up here to make some money like me twenty five thousand dollars as a teacher or i could meet fifty thousand dollars a year trucks or chose to truck people who rushed to a small town in north dakota was an unemployment rate of zero percent like gold rush is very very similar. but this beautiful story ended with pollution and of a station a lot of people have left here i don't know too many people here and just slow down so much they lost their jobs that laid off the american dream is changing that's not what it used to be. it's a tough reality and. a shame downstream you know we're all the feel of the upstream yet it better off in and in the financial the where the money's being printed and compounds at a rate because you end up with a savings account paying. tax.