today alex is in conversation with someone whose political career stretches back almost half a century logically arrived in the house of commons as a young m.p. unfair pre-one nine hundred seventy four now he sits in the house of lords as only peter of the realm in between is leader of play to the party of wales he took the party to its best ever election result in the first assembly elections of one nine hundred ninety nine and two within a whisker of ending labor supremacy of world politics in this interview he explains why i played unlike the s.n.p. have never managed to build on that success but i guess it breaks it may be about to change the political landscape of wales but first your tweets messages and emails and in the nation to ensure a couple of weeks ago with lembit or pick and peter tatchell son campbell says to heartfelt interviews last night we sometimes forget what our politicians do after losing their seat it's not always back to an inherited family business absolutely so suzanne when finlayson says in relation to last week's show great interview with

alex neil what an interesting life he's had i wish the show was an hour long or be about mind caroline says fascinating reflective and candid discussion i hope more people take time to watch it as kindly carling and finally arthur said fascinating walk through of devolution history great interview and a big yes to the model for an independent scotland or thanks arthur i'm now over to alex and data directly. sudden i joined by dr wigley barton wiggle that should say duff and welcome to the alex salmond thanks very much indeed alex i want to take you back to your entry into politics in the early one nine hundred seventy s. i mean you had a successful business career training play company and stanley for parliament was exactly a career move well when i stood the first time for parliament in one hundred seventy i didn't get elected and when i went back i was working with mars then of course accountant for the head of mars give me a choice he said i could have

a good career with mars i could quite possibly have a good political career but i couldn't have both so i joined hoover i became a financial controller hoover in merthyr and when i was elected in one hundred seventy four i had a drop of fifty percent in place salary eleven or cleaned up the votes and cannot and then i arrived in the house of commons as the one of two of the fust calmly m.p.'s elected the general election then joined and told by the legend together for evidence so those three a few hot house parliament a hung parliament through the seventy's indeed but as i'm a fire well it was but we had the company of eleven the s.n.p. the scotland first eleven as i recall them being called iconic people like whitney ewing and donnie stewart to go and wilson and people like that george reid of course so we were able to work as a team at a time when the labor government barely had a majority they had an agreement with the liberals as they then were to sustain until maybe seventy eight but then in the winter of seventy eight through to seventy nine they were in serious trouble and that's when

a small party of course can do a little bit on the margins so it seemed for a time that scotland and wales were set fair to get the assemblies of parliament i mean was a big setback it was a big setback in the referendum then scotland of course voted to have a parliament but because the rules had been cooked in westminster they didn't get over the forty percent threshold forty percent of everybody including dead people on the register they were refused. to have that devolve power meant we in wales had a bad result the labor party whose policy it was of course they were split down the middle and people like neil kinnock were leading the campaign against evolution of their time and it was four to one majority against and i'll be honest i thought that probably in my lifetime i think was dead but over the subsequent term couple of decades things did change and i was glad to be in a position to influence those changes and your own constituency us triumphantly on from larger majority to larger majority in other many of your s.n.p.

colleagues at that table fell by the wayside in the aftermath of the tory victory of seven tonight because of the seventy nine vote of confidence who was a phenomenal voter and a labor lost by one vote and that was from northern ireland who came along and abstained in person it was a historic time we had negotiated the package with the labor government important things like compensation to slay quarrymen and half a dozen other things which they did deliver fair play to them although they lost by one vote there was a scramble to get things through at the end of the s.n.p. had voted against the labor government and i think they paid the price in the subsequent election and there were some lessons to be learned no doubt and i think you were in the process then alex of teaching people what those lessons were but you yourself or then became president leader of play coming succeeding going if i have an issue i think of the present of thirty five years that i had so i was still up relatively young politician becoming leader of your party but having the great

set back of the referendum and wheels of night is something i hope that you take the party forward what did you think the prospects for play company's success well of course we were fairly well divided that i had an election against my colleague parliamentary colleagues over there was thomas and i just sneaked in by somebody said a busload of votes which i succeeded in organizing where did you get the buses from the well we got it locally although one of my adversaries and tried to put the. pressured out in the tires to make sure they arrived late but it was that sort of election but what i'd learned at that time was the importance of showing that we were talking sense not just about evolution and about the economy and about europe but also about day to day matters disability politics is very close to my heart because of the difficulty we had a home we lost two boys and i was lucky enough in one thousand nine hundred one to get a disabled persons act onto the statute book using parliamentary devices that are usually not used and that gave a boost and a number of one off campaigns like that companies such as the price of water in

wales which was a scandal at that time where we were able to latch onto issues and project the fact that we were standing up for wales the personal tragedy the loss of two sons over to your political career you had to take a back seat but dead instill in you the tremendous valve of campaigning on disability issues yes. i felt that i had been put in that position by whatever fluke it was that i was in the right place at the right time to stand up and work with people like jack ashley was a tremendous campaigner modest lescaut to jones great people and working across party lines in order to get some progress for disabled people and that was something that kept me going when you were in a small party as you probably think back far enough you can remember you can be in a lonely position and you need small victories to keep your batteries charged and

that's what is happening with the disability campaign and with a number of campaigns we had during that period the one of the important things i had at that stage that i felt very strongly about was the european dimension plighted campaigned in seventy five against continued membership of the european community is then was i felt very strongly that we should be in and i'm afraid i broke party ranks. and in the fullness of time by the end of the eighty's the whole party had come around to accept that. government independence in the europe was the sensible the only real context for a small country like wales and that's why what's going on now has this particular poignancy for me i had some experience of breaking party ranks as well in my younger days but by the ninety's both of us were back in parliament and the political fortunes were starting to swing there were a bit of scotland and the deed of well yes there were the eighty seven election when you came in and margaret doing was with you and underworlds remember right we

had three members you had a couple who joined you one by election and the other person to cross the floor to join you that give you five so we were well balanced team and we were able to work together at that time and the changes that were happening in scotland i think john smith was realising that the claim of rights basis in scotland to the power comes from the people and not from establishments should have justify getting the scottish parliament back in one hundred seventy nine and he regarded it as you well know it was his unfinished business and because that momentum was building up in scotland and because there were changes happening in northern ireland which john major my parliamentary pair was involved involve very much like an honest yes prime minister at the time and he was recognising that if the people of northern ireland voted for the unification of ireland that should happen and he said of the people scotland or wales voted for independence he would be very sad about it but he would respect it and that was in a way that a claim of right the recognition that our nation's how had the legitimacy to make

that decision and that gave an urgency then for us to be able to use that opportunity later in the ninety's as a carer as a young leader of the s.n.p. in the one nine hundred ninety s. i rather modeled my campaigning style and your. value. for us but did you consciously see the opportunity of progressing wales's. claim in the in the in the lead of scotland's advance well of course scotland's advance was a tremendous boost for the two parties been very close together and sometimes played in the one nine hundred sixty s. a little bit ahead and then the s.n.p. was a little bit ahead we came back in the late seventy's early eighty's and therefore we were inspiring each other and that was a great thing but there are also several of the changes that took place from the referendum in one hundred seventy nine to one thousand nine hundred seven for example we had four sectors of state for wales that weren't even welsh m.p.'s there

these were tories people like john redwood and who had some difficulty with the welsh national anthem asylum and yes there's a lesson for us all though if you don't know the words don't try. clip of film was used ever after but the point was the decisions were being taken by sectors of state that weren't in any way answerable to well some of them were good people peter walker was a good person and. we work closely with people like that and david hunter and william hague but that highlighted the democratic deficit that existed in wales we were governed by a whole lot of quangos the welsh development agency and bodies like that that again were answerable to a non well secular state and not to the people wales we also had the european dimension the decisions were being taken in brussels and we weren't getting a direct voice there so these gave the opportunity to project the need for us to have control of our own affairs what got you one question about europe which is always fascinated me you and i and the mastic process we're we're both busy doing

deals in the house of commons we did a deal in a committee of the regions something we supported then we supported the mastic treaty of course. scotland doing this deal with john major and something we supported but the god of this enormous betrayal despite the benefits been whales of course you were greeted as a national hero for securing these things why the difference to well i would say is this as a national hero but what matters is the content. so what you negotiating and if people see that the packages you're getting and we get a package that included three things yes the committee the regions but also internet funding which helped western wales linking up with island and we got an all wales body representing local government and m.p.'s to debate two or three times a year the question of wales's role in europe now and that was an embryonic parliament if you like and it showed the need for us to have that parliament in the european context so all these things it wasn't the fact that we negotiated people didn't mind what we negotiated with who if we could deliver things that were beneficial

for wales so weird back to referendums with the end coming labor government resoundingly carried in scotland and carried by a whisker in wales but still carried still carried i mean that night i'll never forget because the smaller urban. is where the ones have brought their results in first and these were all going against this is a like a football match when you can you have to have time you go goes two nil four nil seven will ten mil a tough time on the sort of march and then in the second half it came around and the final announcement was in good. old erika martin and come on that you came through i mean the to swing what would otherwise have been a no vote and i wondered at that time whether tony blair would have all of the outcome of the referendum and he did to his credit and that reminds me in the present context that we also have to have an on a ring of what people voted for though i really hated the outcome of that

referendum in scotland or in the fortunate position of people voted talking about in the exit poll yes the bracks vote and we of course of the voted for brics it's by more or less the same pattern as as in england that was a great blow but nonetheless battles go on and that but one must respect the view of the people you can't just ignore it. which. of course. because the swarms of the blue of them so moving. to build your school the local walls before. much of those who heard the preview are most few of them you should see him with the north we will forgo. the move the bulk

move when it. looks so good and look beautiful livable i mean it's going to look or it would. move just like most of these girls a good few films for good girls. go to school so look but look your simu before you kiss well it's good to have you should go. to start ups to. continue to do it with their little missed dates to look at is it. just the schneiders test or just you know it's the mashed old truck stop the president and please control this project until. we have produced a toast mr to snap them up when you will because that is the cousin with you swear your supporters to your shoes ration shouldn't for you should cook door for the one

who's devoted to the request to. fight for calm. so you headed into the one thousand nine hundred nine the fust elections for a welsh national assembly you're the head of your party you've got a head of steam behind you and your chief untasted result touching thirty percent of the vote has a lot of luck in that i mean i couldn't believe that we had been just marginally ahead of the i said be at that time which i never expected to be in that position i think we were helped by the fact that labor chosen a leader in michael who although used

a very competent person he didn't catch the imagination of the labor party let alone the wider electorate and because we were establishing a welsh parliament for the first time remember says oh england who were in fourteen hundred we go back six hundred years that made people think our plight have something to offer here this is played and they gave us the opportunity and we came back with seventy members labor had twenty eight members we had seventeen and we had thirty percent of the vote you talk about the labor leadership equally crucial your leadership you were at that point the best known politician in wales you were the leader of the opposition it was a household name but with a year you'd decided to step down what happened then well the worst thing that happened to me was that i had a awful shock that there was a difficult my heart and i had to be rushed to manchester really rushed i went in for a scanning it intended no and they looked at me and they said oh you're fine go oh no and they phoned immediately and got me through to the head

a stent put in over time and that reminded one that we are all human mortals and that things can go wrong and there are also some divisions within the party in the assembly you know than in the normal run of things probably are taking that head on but given that i was under orders not to put additional stress on myself i thought probably those the best time to pass the buck are you are the only opposition leader who stood down i stood. at that time well i reckon i came back again the opposite s.m.p. moved into government in two thousand and seven and one resulting lee twenty eleven fight wasn't actually the same position in one thousand one thousand nine quite didn't like commonly have the same upswing of success i think one of the reasons was that labor alone michael with our help we orchestrated the vote of the confidence that it. gave labor the opportunity to elect the person they wanted rhodri morgan now lottery morgan was

a charming person his dead now of course and. we wouldn't. have to pay every homage to him for the role he played what he did was to make the national assembly relevant to people in their everyday lives he was seen as the man in the street in wales and labor benefited from that we were out of focus for a while and also went to harvard and wales as a junior partner in the government never an easy position that was after two thousand and seven when we did have an opportunity then to form a coalition against labor and we were well on the road towards that was the largest party and we would then have been leading a government with support of conservatives a lib dems. the lib dems decided by a casting vote i think it was the literature lives a cast that vote in their meeting against coming into a coalition now whether it will work tonight i don't know i was out of this empty

by then of course when yours is leading clyde and the question was can you sustain with just a majority of one of the new sustained with and they'll be a majority but i think we would we would have been challenged but we were up for it and the opportunity didn't come so when that went by the wayside went to coalition with labor in order to deliver things for wales particularly the constitutional changes brought us up to the same constitutional status of scotland had the reserve model which we hadn't had before and it was necessary first to go through that step to get a real parliament as opposed to a little bit of a talking shop as the assembly was but then in two thousand and ten your marriage back again last time reincarnated and they and the house a lot of waiting room to heaven it was a shock for a lot of people the background to that was this that as the constitutional model stood in two thousand and seven when the question arose and when i was elected by

clyde. to be a nominee for the house of lords at that point in time. the only way that the national assembly could make primary legislation was if an order came through both the house of commons and the house of lords approving on each individual instance in other words the non-elected house of lords could head off the wishes of an elected government in wales and of course we were in coalition in that government so we needed a voice there to speak up were that to happen in the in the fullness of time i didn't i didn't get those laws until two thousand and eleven in fact it was the end of two thousand and ten the announcement was made i took my seat in two thousand because gordon brown had blocked me all the way through from two thousand and seven to two thousand and eleven here he was rumored to have said over his dead body would you see any nationals in the house of lords i think it's the same stance basically as you're the one getting a self-fulfilling start and suddenly we want to accept the nomination but if we had

ever i would've expected gordon bowed to be too favorable to such nominations but you know find yourself in that upper chamber unelected chamber in the middle of the maelstrom of this of the european union legislation the blacks that legislation and play a very prominent role in it well i found myself because i'm so passionately in favor of europe i believe now that we have to get a package that meets certain minimum. necessary steps for for wales and for britain because there's a british argument to some extent with regards to having access to the single market i mean customs union of the sort of thing to to make it practical otherwise our manufacturing industry is very close to my heart our farmers and so many other sectors tourism would be devastated and therefore by being in the second chamber and being able to put amendments down to legislation on these matters at least as an opportunity to highlight them from a welsh angle and i have to work with people in all parties to to do that and of

course europe is a subject that cuts across party divisions so it's that much easier to form alliances so after all these years when as a young politician you defied the plight. come really late in the in the mid seventy's to be in favor of europe you know find yourself the suspect in the result of the referendum but i suspect sensing an opportunity for wales and this european to bit. i'm respecting the vote that took place but i don't think people were voting for what would be the worst of a hard rexx it if there was no agreement and we walked out having achieved nothing in the negotiations now if that happens then there has to be a second vote not a rerun of the previous referendum but a consummate revote the people want to go out on that basis and if they did vote no we stay in so looking at your your career should rightly say of the national assembly for wales to the first. body parliament on wheels for six hundred years. definitely imagining in the house of commons in february seventy four be pretty

pleased with the progress that wheels us made over these last forty years can i say that in one thousand nine hundred eighty nine in march nine hundred seventy nine have been very pleased because it looks so dream then in one thousand nine hundred four we thought the progress would have come more quickly but it didn't and one has to work within the context of one's time and one's resources as a nation and one's own party resources so we move forward there's so much more to do with the greatest disappointment for me i mean the failure of successive labor governments to make progress on the economic agenda for wales we really are not getting anywhere on that one and that is so close to my heart from industrial past that that's the one thing i would like to be in that to sort out and they constitutional future for wales and the political future for bardhan wakely happen as far as wales is concerned it does depend so much on whether we stay in a meaningful way in unison with the european union if not

a full member of it if we're in what used to be called the outer seven i think it was in that there are countries like sweden or denmark of the like might people who are no outside the eurozone who might well as i understand something in continental europe is moving in that direction for a two speed europe then britain may well still go into that common market type europe as opposed to european union type europe in which case wills can find its level of scotland what's important is that we don't about two years between wales and england between wales and scotland or ireland that we're in together because we want to build self-government and self-determination within a broader world not kid ourselves off and look inwards on ourselves that's a work we thank you so much for the interview thanks alex. from firebrand young m.p. to a button on the red benches of the house of logs that wakely was the most successful leader in the history of. the breakthrough at the first of

a democratic elections for the national assembly of wales equal death of the s.n.p. in scotland however the progress of the troop office has been remarkably different sense of the s.n.p. becoming the dominant force in scottish politics while plight of struggle to remain in second place in wales constitutional change has not been so different between the two countries as the national assembly has acquired lawmaking pose with the welsh moves forward often being but one step behind those of scotland. office the opportunity to redefine well for the next generation it would be ironic if leaving europe offered a fresh impetus to the cause of wales given that the principle out itself not only voted for bricks that have us changing the landscape will belong to the party which is fleet of foot enough to seize the moment and that's a wiggly believes that will be coming.

but just a walk before you go let's have a sneak preview of what's coming up next week. from america. from the constitutional future wales crossed the atlantic to union square. and the next free alex salmond shows that the contribution of scotland to modern day america believe me as pretty lively stuff. and the second of a serious look at what it was. in these united states i mean the fob will be shopping the political good job of the united states of america a cop in all the george washington clearly realized what he was what he will self

and fought see that. pranking gave americans a lot of new job opportunities i needed to come up here to make some money i could make twenty five thousand dollars as a teacher or i could make fifty thousand dollars a year girl and truck so i chose to drive trucks people rush to a small town in north dakota was an unemployment rate of zero percent like gold rush is very very similar to

a gold rush but this beautiful story ended with pollution and devastation a lot of people have left here i don't know too many people here in the slowdown so much they lost their jobs that laid off the american dream is changing that's not what it used to be. and that's a tough reality only. exists as harlan kentucky. over all of this movement places you work ministry families removing. a co money since it was almost no coal mines left. the jobs are gone all the coal mines the said. these people are survivors of disappearing before their eyes. i remember thinking when i was younger that if anything ever

happened to the coal mines here that it would become a ghost town but i never thought in a million years i would see that and it's how it's happened. and when you don't. see the. what did you not. make. love to the hill said. no to me did. you speak french. the. sun was busy.

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