joined by dr wigley barton wiggle that should say duff and welcome to the alex salmond show thanks very much indeed alex. entry into politics in the early one nine hundred seventy s. i mean you had a successful business career joining play company and stanley for parliament was exactly a career move well when i stood the first time for parliament in one hundred seventy i didn't get elected and when i went back i was working with mars then of course accountant and the head of mars give me a choice he said i could have a good career with mars i could quite possibly have a good political career but i couldn't have both so i joined hoover i became a financial controller hoover in mirth and when i was elected in ninety seventy four they had a drop of fifty percent in place salary eleven leaned up the votes and cannot and then i arrived in the house of commons as the one of two of the first company m.p.'s elected the general election then joined and told by the legend together for evidence so the see a few hot house parliament a hung parliament through the seventy's indeed that far but as i'm

a fire well it was but we had the company of eleven the s.n.p. the scotland first eleven as i recall them being called iconic people like whitney ewing and donnie stewart to go and wilson and people like that george reid of course so we were able to work as a team at a time when the labor government barely had a majority they had an agreement with the liberals as they then were to sustain until maybe seventy eight but then in the winter of seventy eight through to seventy nine they were in serious trouble and that's when a small party of course can do a little bit on the margins so it seemed for a time that scotland and wales were set fair to get the assemblies of parliament i mean was a big setback it was a big setback in the referendum then scotland of course voted to have a parliament but because the rules have been cooked in westminster they didn't get over the forty percent threshold forty percent of everybody including dead people on the register they were refused. to have that. devolve parliament we know wales

had a bad result the labor party whose policy it was of course they were split down the middle and people like neil kinnock were leading the campaign against evolution of their time and it was four to one majority against and i'll be honest i thought that probably in my lifetime the thing was dead but over the subsequent term couple of decades things did change and i was glad to be in a position to influence those changes in your own constituency us triumphantly on from move large majority to larger majority leader maybe a few s.n.p. colleagues at that table fell by the wayside in the aftermath of the tory victory of seven tonight because of the seventy nine vote of confidence who was a phenomenal voter and a labor lost by one vote and that was from northern ireland who came along and abstained in person it was a historic site and we had negotiated the package with the labor government important things like compensation to slay quarrymen and half a dozen other things which they did deliver fair play to them although they lost by one vote there was a scramble to get things through at the end of the s.n.p.

had voted against the labor government and i think they paid the price in the subsequent election and there are some lessons to be learnt no doubt and i think you were in the process then alex of teaching people what those lessons were yourself or then became president leader of play coming succeeding going to have an issue i think of the president of thirty five years that i had so i was still up relatively young politician becoming leader of your party but having the great set back of the referendum and we'll sort of night and something i hope that you take the party forward what did you think the prospects for play company's success well of course we were fairly well divided that i had an election against my colleague politically doublets thomas and i just sneaked in by somebody said a busload of votes which i succeeded in organizing where did you get the buses wrong well we got it locally elbow one of my adversaries and tried to put the pressure down and. the tires to make sure they arrived late but it was that sort of

election but what i'd learned at that time was the importance of showing that we were talking sense not just about evolution and about the economy and about europe but also about day to day matters disability politics is very close to my heart because of the difficulty we had a home we lost two boys and i was lucky enough in one thousand nine hundred one to get a disabled persons act onto the statute book using parliamentary devices that are usually not used and that gave a boost and the number of one off campaigns like that companies such as the price of water in wales which was a scandal at that time where we were able to latch onto issues and project the fact that we were standing up for wales personal targeted the loss of two sons over to your political career you had to take a back seat but instill in you the tremendous valve of campaigning on disability issues yes. i felt that i had been put in that position by whatever fluke it

was that i was in the right place at the right time to stand up and to work with people like jack ashley was a tremendous campaigner modestly scott joins great people and working across party lines in order to get some progress for disabled people and that was something that kept me going when you were in the small party as you probably think back far enough you can remember you can be in a lonely position and you need small victories to keep your batteries charged and that's what is happening with the disability campaign and with a number of campaigns we had during that period the one of the important things i had at that stage that i felt very strongly about was the european dimension plighted campaigned in seventy five against continued membership of the european community is then was i felt very strongly that we should be in and i'm afraid i broke party ranks. and in the fullness of time by the end of the eighty's the whole party had come around to accept that. self-government in the. ns in the europe was

the sensible the only real context for a small country like wales and that's why what's going on now has this particular poignancy for me i had some experience of breaking party ranks as well in my younger days but by the ninety's both of us were back in parliament and the political fortunes were starting to swing there were a bit of scotland and the deed of well yes there were the eighty seven election when you came in and margaret doing was with you and the welsh remember right we had three members you had a couple who joined you one by election and another person to cross the floor to join you that give you five so we were well balanced team and we were able to work together at that time and the changes that were happening in scotland i think john smith was realising that the claim of right bases in scotland to the power comes from the people and not from establishment should have justify getting a scottish parliament back in one hundred seventy nine and he regarded it as you well know this is unfinished business and because that momentum was building up in

scotland and because there were changes happening in northern ireland which john major my parliamentary pair was involved involve very much like an honest and yes prime minister at the time and he was recognising that if the people of northern ireland voted for the unification of ireland that should happen and he said of the people scotland or wales voted for independence he would be very sad about it but he would respect it and that was in a way that a claim of right the recognition that our nation's how had the legitimacy to make that decision and that gave an urgency then for us to be able to use that opportunity later in the ninety's as a carer as a young leader of the s.n.p. in the one nine hundred ninety s. i rather model my campaigning style and you're. very. lucky but if you consciously see the opportunity of progressing wales's claim. in the in the in the lead of scotland said vance well of

course scotland's advance was a tremendous boost for us of the two parties been very close together and sometimes played in the one nine hundred sixty s. a little bit ahead and then the s.n.p. was a little bit ahead we came back in the late seventy's early eighty's and therefore we were inspiring each other and that was a great thing but there are also several of the changes that took place from the referendum in one hundred seventy nine to one thousand nine hundred seven for example we had four sectors of state for wales that weren't even welsh m.p.'s there these were tories people like john redwood and who had some difficulty with the welsh national anthem asylum and yes there's a lesson for us all though if you don't know the words don't try my we can have a. clip of film was used ever after but the point was the decisions were being taken by secular state that weren't in any way answerable to it some of them were good people peter walker was a good person and. we work closely with people like that and david hunter and william hague but that highlighted the democratic deficit that existed in wales we

were governed by a whole lot of quangos the welsh development agency and bodies like that that again were answerable to a non well secular state and not to the people wales we also had the european dimension the decisions were being taken in brussels and we weren't getting a direct voice there so these gave the opportunity to project the need for us to have control over our own affairs what got you one question about europe which is always fascinated me you and i and the mastic process we're we're both busy doing deals in the house of commons we did a deal in a committee of the regions something we supported done we supported the mastic treaty of course. scotland doing this deal with john major on something we supported but the guardian this enormous betrayal despite the benefits been wales of course you were greeted as a national hero for securing these things while quite the difference just well i would say as a national hero but what matters is the content of what in a ghost. getting and if people see that the packages you're getting and we get

a package included three things yes the committee the regions but also internet funding which helped western wales linking up with island and we got an all wales body representing local government and m.p.'s to debate two or three times a year the question of wales's role in europe now and that was an embryonic parliament if you like and it showed the need for us to have that parliament in the european context so all these things it wasn't the fact that we negotiated people didn't mind what we negotiated with who if we could deliver things that were beneficial for wales so weird back to referendums with the end coming labor government resoundingly carried in scotland and carried by a whisker in wales but still carried still carried i mean that night i'll never forget because the smaller urban. authorities were the ones have brought the results in first and these were all going against this is a like a football match when you can have to have time you go goes to nil four nil seven till ten mil

a tough time on the sort of match and then in the second half it came around and the final announcement was in good. old erika martin and come on that you came through and in the swing what would otherwise have been a no vote and i wondered at that time whether tony blair would have all of the outcome of the referendum and he did to his credit and that reminds me in the present context that we also have to have an on a ring of what people voted for although i really hated the outcome of that referendum in scotland or in the fortunate position of people voted talking about in the exit poll yes the bracks vote and we of course of voted for brics it's by more or less the same pattern as as in england that was a great blow but nonetheless battles go on and that but one must respect the view of the people you can't just ignore it.

this is says harlan kentucky. we both just moved them voices people will bring the story from you three men to. a co money city with almost no coal mines left. the jobs are gone all the coal was just said. that it was live to see these people the survivors of a world disappearing before their eyes. i remember thinking when i was younger that if anything ever happened to the coal mines here that it would become a ghost town but i never thought in a million years i would see that and it's happening it's happened.

what politicians do something good. they put themselves on the line. to get accepted or rejected. so when you want to be president or injury. or somehow want to be rich. have to go right to the press this is what the four three of them all can't be good. i'm interested always in the waters about how. this should. with.

for going. so you headed into the one nine hundred ninety nine the fust elections for a welsh national assembly you're the head of your party you've got a head of steam behind you and your chief untasted result touching thirty percent of the vote there's a lot of luck in that i mean i couldn't believe that we had been just marginally ahead of the i said be at that time which i never expected to be in that position i think we were helped by the fact that labor chosen a leader in michael who although used a very competent person he didn't catch the imagination of the labor party let alone the wider electorate and because we were establishing a welsh parliament for the first time remember says oh england were in fourteen hundred we go back six hundred years that made people think our plight have something to offer here this is ply you'd see and they gave us the opportunity and we came back with seventy members labor had twenty eight members we had seventeen

and we had thirty percent of the vote you talk about the labor leadership equally crucial wish you had leadership us out at that point the best known politician and we'll see what the leader of the opposition you want a household name but with a year you'd decided to step down what happened well the worst thing that happened to me was that i had a awful shock that there was a defect on my heart and i had to be rushed to manchester and i really rushed. i went in for a scanning it intended no and they looked at me and they said oh you're fine go oh no they phoned immediately and got me through to mention that had a stent put in at that time and that reminded one that we're all human mortals and that things can go wrong. and there are also some divisions within the party in the assembly you know than in the normal rather think probably are taking that head on but given that i was under orders not to put additional stress on myself i thought probably that was the best time to pass the buck or you aren't the only opposition

leader who stood down i stood at that table well i reckon i came back again yeah obviously the s.n.p. moved into government in two thousand and seven then one resulting only in twenty eleven why wasn't the same position in one thousand nine hundred ninety why didn't play comely have the same upswing of success i think one of the reasons was that labor ditched alan michael with our help we orchestrated the vote of confidence that it. gave labor the opportunity to elect the person they wanted rhodri morgan now roger morgan was a charming person they hear he's dead now of course and. we wouldn't. pay every homage to him for the role he played what he did was to make the national assembly relevant to be put in there every day like it was he was seen as the man in the street in wales and labor benefited from that we were out of focus for

a while and also went to the place power in wales as a junior partner in the government never an easy position that was after two thousand and seven when we did have an opportunity then to form a coalition against labor and we were well on the road towards that was the largest party and we would then have been leading a government with support of conservatives and lived. and the lib dems decided by a casting vote. i think it was the literature lives cast that vote in their meeting against coming into a coalition now whether it worked or not i don't know i was out of the seventy by then of course when i was leading played and the question was can you sustain with just a majority of one of the you sustained with the. majority but i think we would we would have been challenged but we were we were up for it and the opportunity didn't come so when that went by the wayside went to a coalition with labor in order to deliver things for wales particularly the

constitutional changes brought us up to the same constitutional state as a scotland had the reserve model which we hadn't had before and it was necessary first to go through that step to get a real parliament as opposed to a little bit of a talking shop as the assembly was but then in two thousand and ten you're mabs back again and this time reincarnated then they. host a lot of well yes waiting room to heaven it was a shock for a lot of people the background to that was this that as the constitutional model stood in two thousand and seven when the question arose and when i was elected by played. to be a nominee for the house of lords at that point in time. the only way that the national assembly could make primary legislation was if an order came through both the house of commons and the house of lords approving on each individual instance in other words the non-elected house of lords could head off the wishes of an

elected government in wales and of course we were in coalition in that government so we needed a voice there to speak up were that to happen in the in the fullness of time i didn't i didn't get those laws until two thousand and eleven in fact it was the end of two thousand and ten the announcement was made i took my seat in two thousand because gordon brown had blocked me all the way through from two thousand and seven to two thousand and he he was rumored to have said over his dead body would you see any nationals in the house of lords i think it's the same stance basically as you look at what we do we take a self-fulfilling stance and the way we would fix that nomination but if we had never i would've expected gordon bowed to be too favorable to such nominations but you know find yourself in that upper chamber unelected chamber in the middle of the maelstrom of this of the european union legislation the bracks that legislation and play a very prominent role in it well i found myself because i'm so passionately in favor of europe i believe now that we have to get

a package that meets certain minimum. necessary steps for wales and for britain was the british argument to some extent with regards to having access to the single market i mean customs union of the sort of thing to to make it practical otherwise our manufacturing industry very close to my heart our farmers and so many other sectors tourism would be devastated and therefore by being in the second chamber and being able to put amendments down to legislation on these matters at least as an opportunity to highlight them from a welsh angle and i have to work with people in all parties to to do that and of course europe is a subject that cuts across party divisions so there's that much easier to form alliances so after all these years when a young politician you defied the play had come. really late in the in the mid seventy's to be in favor of europe you know find yourself the suspect in the south of the referendum but i suspect sensing an opportunity for wales and this european to bit. i'm respecting the vote that took place but i don't think people were

voting for what would be the worst of a hard rexx it if there was no agreement and we walked out having achieved nothing in the negotiations now if that happens then there has to be a second vote not a rerun of the previous referendum but a consummate free vote the people want to go out on that basis and if they did vote no we stay in so looking at your your career should rightly say of the the national assembly for wales of the the first. body parliament on wheels for six hundred years. imagine in the house of commons and fabulous seventy four be pretty pleased with the progress that wheels us made over these last forty years can i say that in one thousand nine hundred eighty nine in march nine hundred seventy nine have been very pleased because it looks so grim then in one thousand nine hundred four we thought the progress would have come more quickly but it didn't and one has to work within the context of one's time and one's resources as

a nation and one's own party resources so we move forward there's so much more to do with the greatest disappointment for me has been the failure of successive labor governments to make progress on the economic agenda for wales we really are not getting anywhere on that one and that is so close to my heart for my industrial past that that's the one thing i would like to be in that to sort out and they constitutional future for wales and the political future for bardhan wakely. as far as wales is concerned it does depend so much on whether we stay in a meaningful way in unison with the european union if not a full member of it if we're in what used to be called the outer seven i think it was in that there are countries like sweden or denmark of the like might people who are no outside the eurozone who might well as i understand something in continental europe is moving in that direction for a two speed europe then britain may well still go into that common market type europe as opposed to european union type europe in which case we can find its level

of scotland what's important is that we don't have barriers between wales and england between wales or scotland or ireland that we're in together because we want to build self-government and self-determination within a broader world not kid ourselves off and look inwards on ourselves that's a work we thank you so much for the interview but as alex. from firebrand young m.p. to a button on the red benches of the house of lords that wakely was the most successful leader in the history of ply comrie the breakthrough at the first ever democratic elections for the national assembly of wales equalled that of the s.n.p. in scotland however the progress of the two parties has been remarkably different sense of the s.n.p. becoming the dominant force in scottish politics applied of struggle to remain in second place in wales constitutional change has not been so different between the two countries as

a national assembly is acquired lawmaking pose with the welsh blues forward often being but one step behind those of scotland. for the next generation it would be ironic if leaving us up. to the cause of. the. not only voted for. change will belong to the power. to seize the moment and believes that will be. but just before you go let's leave you what's coming up next week. from america.

from the constitutional. to union square. and then i. will be looking at the contribution of. the modern day america believe me as a lively. and the second of. two muslims in these united states and then that will be taking the clip. of the united states of america. to know george washington really realized what he was.

algorithms that guide the product of google also guide the actions of the employees within a google and they can stop the algorithm isn't this just like fantasia the disney movie with mickey mouse worry goes to war with the dancing broom and he tries to chop it down to creates more than a craze a flood with in the wizard alice playing these are algorithms that are out of fricken control and employees within the company can't stop them that war driven by algorithm who's in charge of the algorithm or the head of google who's running the show. to take you had to take

matters into its own ads to provide its own security and securing the border reveals now this is a very very legitimate goals. who are the bridge to be there. has to be the who are the british to be. cranking gave americans a lot of new job opportunities needed to come up here to make some money like me twenty five thousand dollars as a teacher or i could make fifty thousand dollars a year truck so i chose to drive trucks people who rush to a small town in north dakota was an unemployment rate of zero percent like gold rush is very very similar to a gold rush but this beautiful story ended with pollution and devastation a lot of people have left here i don't know too many people here anymore slow down too much they lost their jobs got laid off the american dream is changing that's

not what it used to be. and it's a tough reality to deal with. you never know what's around the corner you never know what's in the pub you're going to walk into excitement it's that knowledge that's where the adrenalin rush comes from. and you can use a move by definition and extreme cruelty. and violence is a part and it's almost a schizophrenia. where you can do all these things and behave badly. they're born of people of course colorful all. those more so for the last. honestly and infirm for a while and given all that's in the thoughts. i would rather where not really did

a poll down. meaning reason is that at least if you don't and the evolves it's constantly evolving and. if there is strong pressure find a security company that's by dependence again and i did meet you on don't donald trump to do something about it soon you could probably at some stage she might give in to this pressure but i don't think it is his intention what i consider more likely down another u.s. military attack on syria is that the united states policy build the heat to wreck any effort by the russians to turks and the iranians to find a political solution. the

u.s. defense secretary admits that his country has no concrete evidence there was a chemical attack in the syrian city of dumont but might strike preemptively to defend american troops there. after a lengthy cabinet meeting at theresa may fails to shed much light on london's course of action on syria merely stressing the need to coordinate with allies meanwhile the german chancellor gives a firm no to military strikes against damascus good chance. and even to end its chicken and siding with us on my. own need to just not to need to tidy can. also this hour the u.k.'s foreign secretary is in no doubt russia was behind the screwball poisoning after un watchdog confirmed the substance used in the attack that is despite investigations not confer.