us i mean people is a must a civil or hire. the cia hired people who is a bachelor's degree and then they trained them and. gave them courses and so forth in the comparison. really in favor of the soviet intelligence so how did you feel about other agents who were like you double agents pretending to be one side working for another two years is a mess traitors or do you view them as simply professionals who are doing their job well also you know there are different kinds of people there are people who really betray their country for money and. they are really double agents in the first sense of the bird i don't consider my sort of the really a double agent. so. how do i feel about him i don't like traitors on his side i understand he even has soviet intelligence needed

i mean agents who are betraying united states or england and so forth but those people do it for money i didn't hear of any one. for soviet intelligence only for well except for kim philby or so the conviction. certainly did it for money so tell me something how does that work in this agency is to intelligence agents is just assumed that there are inevitably infiltrated do they take that into account in their work or it does that realisation take them by surprise this is for a cia's concern it did indeed take them by surprise they just couldn't. imagine that somebody could infiltrate them you know go through all the security checks and so forth and you know cia badly and there

is still mates people from other countries and particularly from what they call east europe so they couldn't simply for the love of god think that somebody from east you know such a small of them they heard too often to say you know those are three big people those checks and the russians and so forth but of course you're not like them you are like us you know we. really offensive. what is realizing that there is a mole in your ranks to turn agents taster panic while around suspicion which on what happens yeah what happens is indeed panic then in the. late eighty's was given the name of american agents is the soviet union you know how many but

about eleven or twelve were caught there was absolute panic in the cia they went as far as trying to get in touch with me right try to persuade me to give them some kind of hint who could that be they even arranged a meeting with me in munich for that purpose and of course they didn't learn anything from me. surely not but they were panicky so he returned to their intelligence work because the state secret police harassed you to the brink you needed them to stop ruining your lives are most of the people we created into this job like that through pressure fear depends for americans it's mostly a career like and the other. is. certainly nationalists and people who have material to feelings but i think that's secondary to the primary

concern is. the pay the career that the kind of certainty they have of employment my experience with soviet the russian side was that they they're more idealistic. they they did it out of their situation and service for their country i mean that was primary on the first place so in the times of the cold war agents could be recruited on ideological grounds help the global fight for justice equality these days is all of that done just for cash are the days of ideas on. well in there was the day the sofa ideas i am afraid are gone not necessarily in russia about the most definitely invested hurt but even in russia i think they must have problems because you now have consumer society money is very powerful so i think the danger of.

having the. interest rate it is much higher i've been. at the time when i was working for the cia the cia realized it was extremely difficult to recruit an agent in the soviet union and they certainly couldn't operate in the country is it picketing or patience whatever they know it is very different and certainly they knew russian incursion sisu take this into account so what is like the ultimate lot of aid or for someone to find themselves in the shop is that money as it fair i don't know maybe vanity or a desire of a thrill adrenaline what is. what it what what what what's more it is it's. smaller depends on the kind. what kind of a person you are. but miss me it was really

a desire to there for public service it was some kind of patriotic patriotic commitment. there are such people in the cia as well but not that many not that many how good was the money in the business back then oh very bad. intelligence didn't pay me anything get it at all busy exceptional expenses and we had a meeting somewhere in paris or i don't know they would pay for the running tickets and for the hotel but i didn't get any salary. it's all so in the in the cia was in. except about it was better than my when i was teaching at college i made less money than i made in the cia but it wasn't really too great and it was enough but much.

more important for another karzai is it being careful or is it being brave again it's a matter of what's going on the person you are but. the it's not that you want to be a james bond daring thinks but when it comes to doing something dangerous you you do it and you find out the know how fearful you are but. it works fine for me and sure i was sometimes afraid of doing something risky but i could live with it but i was careful enough not to be caught and i was caught because i was betrayed. so i know you were offering your superiors to use n.g.o.s as umbrellas for spying activities but they didn't go for it was that for side of your part on

your part or is your idea in years now and if yes then how is it done. is outsourcing this kind of thing they are doing the job that the cia is should be doing itself but. it seems safer and simpler to to have a non-governmental organization do it for them but but basically it's just an extension of the covert operations of it is. it's that didn't exist because you you couldn't. sue and then governmental. organization in the soviet union so that's something which came by the. end of the soviet union was. so are is everyone doing it now all the agencies doing this now using non-governmental organizations as umbrellas yes well

they're certainly there are plenty of them in the czech republic plenty of them everywhere. but. i don't think it is so extensive. from the russian side. and i you know you really don't believe that russia has such a strong interest in really influencing. the political situation in other countries maybe some but certain not to that extent. the americans all right we're going to take a short break right now when we're back we'll continue talking with carol former czechoslovak spieth a mole who successfully penetrated the cia chairing the cold war talking about the secret world of intelligence services stay with us.

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remember a one to one business show you can't afford to miss the one and only blue book. about your sudden passing i've only just learned you were a south and taken your last to bang turn. caught up to you as we all knew it would i tell you i'm sorry suddenly i could so i write these last words in hopes to put to rest these things that i never got off my chest. i remember when we first met my life turned on each breath. but then my feelings started to change you talked about war like it was again still some are fond of you those that didn't like to question our ark and i secretly promised to never again like it said one does not leave a funeral the same as one enters my mind gets consumed with death this one

different person i speak to now because there are no other takers. to claim that mainstream media has met its maker. what politicians do you shut up. they put themselves on. on the big get accepted or rejected. so when you want to be president or injury. or some want to be brits. it's a good life to be for us this is what the flag with us three in the morning can't be good that i'm interested always in the waters of my. question. well. you never know what's around the corner you never know what's in the pub you're going to walk into excitement it's not it that's where the adrenalin rush comes from.

and you can use the point if you feel the extreme through of. the violence is a part and it's almost a schizophrenia. we can do these things and behave like. they're born in the public hospital for all political skills more so for the last one. hundred million infirmed room on my wall policy in the fall. over broader where no piper young really did a poll go down with. me reason is that if you don't involve this constant involvement.

and we're back with carol czechoslovak spy the mole who successfully penetrated the cia during the cold war discussing what the life of an undercover intelligence agent is like or was like so mr cassar women as affective in espionage as we get movies and books is the image of a seductive. with sex and getting atomic secrets out of you on a lover is bad anywhere close to reality well i strongly doubt it may be the israelis are using women in this capacity but

otherwise i don't know of anything of that sort. the americans were trying to charge me and my wife. this way but the debts absolute fiction he never even thought it was absolute nonsense i had its top secret clearance and there was no reason whatever to uses this kind of this kind of. offers so this is the place i really think you may now much i simply fixed yes films and books right in real life yes yes yes indeed yes indeed i really don't think so but yes and this is such such. israel is that israel is use when many service is how do they is this women yes yes that's well even if they will kidnap somebody or if they want to blow up something so they

would send the i don't know car was two women who set up the policeman who is guarding that place and asked him to fix their car and so forth and in the meantime the their. their colleagues climbed the wall and put explosives on the i don't know battles his chemicals or the. radioactive material so lever but. of course who used it the service that used women and men in this capacity was east german intelligence services are very good at it. but they knew we didn't do it and i really don't know. anything of that sort to taking place in the soviet intelligence service certainly it did but than on a small scale probably i mean compromising people who's from the diplomatic

corps in moscow is describing of thing everybody does that but otherwise not during my time it was just. kind of just. sort of change to his old women so can you fish for his full information for somebody without having access to the classified de tat cia me and or elsewhere do you necessarily have to being gates was security services in the country you were spying on to get useful information. is certainly the best way but. it depends what kind of intelligence you want to acquire you can also pose as a scientist or a fight scientists and get a job with some contractor who is producing is some secret kind of weapon and so forth you don't have to be necessarily in the secret service but you

have to have clearance clearance is issued by the pentagon. by by the intelligence services the key to. getting information is a clearance so a bunch of russian sleeper agents were exposed by the united states in twenty ten i don't know if you remember that story they all held usually also it isn't of the grain of so they're like we were random usual jobs real estate agent car salesmen and they live normal monday lives so what kind of intelligence can you get is like a cook or if you're a travel agent. if you're asleep or you're just getting ready it means that the few years or couple of years you might apply for a job some kind of. military contractor you know even if.

so what happens to people who wear slippers for years and years i mean they have kids they grow up there one day this kids wake up and they find out they're not even american. their parents aren't who they thought they were. when you were out it were people around you in shock yes indeed in shock but strangely enough most of them stayed friends. defend my country they would defend. these still. are in touch with quite a few of our friends from the time american friends. so can someone like you a spy a double agent ever guess out of the game completely i mean you had a break for some years and you thought you were out and then a letter comes in and bomb and you're reactivated despise ever retire.

i strongly doubt it this is a stuff from films and through wrists from books and stevie series. i don't think so it would be both on the other is certainly i'm out of the business so if someone wants to be completely out that that's a choice and nothing's going to come in a way because i've heard different stories i've heard that one top agents want to leave the profession or change the profession they're not let go completely well it depends what kind of an agent it is but i believe that if you really want to get out. you know how to do it till you move to a different continent you change identity it's always possible even a result to help all of those deal thought is mean so is that the only way i mean

if you want to leave a few minutes so is that the only way few want to leave the agency and they don't want to let you go that you have to change your identity and go to a different continent that's the only way to leave the profession well if if you really are. that access to very sensitive information that's what i would advise. such an agent to do but otherwise i don't think it's really all that. dangerous or if you want to leave you leave it in most cases they will let you go you know why because it doesn't make sense for somebody to do something that he doesn't want to do. but our intelligence agency is vengeful. yes the cia was certainly vengeful they did try to compromise me and they certainly spread false rumors they tried to

. spread. ugly stories about me to miss their eventual c.e.o. it was certainly very ranch one or the f.b.i. i would say more the f.b.i. than the c.i. . so do you think sitting cityscape by this case is something like that a double agent paying for what he did and the russian intel official sat that he was exchanged and sent off to the united kingdom because he was no more of any use to russia so that it wasn't the russians so tried to get him. certainly if he was exchange that was it. shows concern i honestly believe that they had absolutely no interest. at all and furthermore i mean there is a very important point i would like to make. russian intelligence certainly uses.

illegals agents and so-called you know what there is little agent is no no cover is they use agent that have no diplomatic cover and they are certainly exposed to great dangers and when they are court or arrested the only way to get them back home is to have them exchanged so there is no way that the russian side would endanger the this kind of exchange business is so scrip are most definitely wasn't a victim of any kind of operation or at that from the russian side because that would totally destroy the russian credibility as far as exchanges are concerned and they are dependent on it because they certainly have to get their people dake if they get into trouble so the russians are now saying that the british intelligence is hiding scrip os from everyone do you saying that could be the case where they

certainly are highly highly the most natural thing would be for at least for his daughter who seems to be in good shape to appear at a press conference or to talk to journalists they certainly are hiding the two of them as much as they can so like you sat script how was of no real value to the russian intelligence why do you think that the british british are so adamant at blaming the russians. if there case. then. there is certainly is some kind of scenario of. russian operations and. just became a good opportunity i really don't believe that scripture was a static thing there was maybe an accident or maybe there was no nothing at all the maybe that was just made up to have some kind of. some kind of reason to

a skull eight and. since in the new republic city now you really don't believe that. anybody from that arson side would. try to cause him harm. to think that the british will ever allow the russians to meet with the script i don't think so why because the whole thing is so suspicious you know you cannot know what he's going to say. maybe scruple himself would not be willing to do what they ordered him to do he is obviously a traitor he's not a very reliable person. the moral person so even if he agrees to say what they tell him to say he wanted to change his mind when the speaking on camera i don't think they would ever allow him to leave his innocence oh right thing and the family very

very much for this really interesting insights into their world over the top spy. mr karr chair where we're talking to carol co-chair former czechoslovak spy a mole successfully penetrated the cia during the cold war discussing their role intelligence agents playing global politics that's it for this edition of so think i'll see you next. when lawmakers manufactured and sentenced him to public wells. when the

ruling classes project themselves. in the primary go around listen to the woman was told. to ignore middle of the room signal. really is the a. child's seemed wrong wrong why don't we all just don't know all. the world is yet to shape out it's just a consequence of the engagement because betrayal. when so many find themselves worlds apart we choose to look for common ground the.

i've played for many clubs over the years so i know the game inside out. football isn't only about what happens on the pitch pull the final school it's about the passion from the fans it's the age of the superman each kill the narrowness and spending two hundred twenty million on one player. so it's an experience like nothing else i want to because i want to share what i think what i know about the beautiful game played great so one more chance for. a nice minute. elliston is getting international recognition with the help of israel at least in the world of zoos and. the commission like you know. this is in my capacity is going to solve you know maybe you. know john.

the only palestinians who gets the most help from his jerusalem counterparts i don't think some of those who are on the location they're not going to go through this. and then at his office knowledge to have this lady of the muscle that you have and i'm going to compete in the custom she would do more in the middle. but there's also.

her headline story say a new friendship blossoms in international politics as the presidents of france under a cab all know over a mutual dislike of syria's leader. so any claims of a chemical attack in the syrian city of duma earlier this month are called into question with a number of journalists who visited the site struggling to find any evidence to report. the people there are telling us very curious razor and this whole story from a privileged with state. and a local cameraman claims is really saw jewish day down all on palestinian teenager on the gals or border last week adding he has video evidence to prove it. when i filmed him he wasn't carrying stuff.