hello and welcome to crossfire all things considered i'm peter lavelle wore in remembrance today marks the seventy third anniversary of victory in europe over fascism this is one of the most important dates on the russian calendar that can't be said of the europeans and americans we discuss how that conflict continues to impact russia's view of the world to this day. cross talking the great patriotic war i'm joined by my guest mark sloboda he's an

international affairs and security analyst we also have he is the founder of the center of political strategic analysis and we have peter cousin and he is a professor of history at american university as well as co author of with oliver stone the untold history of the united states all right gentlemen crosstalk rules in effect that means you can jump in in any time you want i always appreciated let's talk about what the russians call the great patriotic war or as the rest of the western world calls it the second world war now peter you've been visiting in moscow. you've probably seen a lot of evidence celebrating the victory day on may ninth but you don't see that in the west you don't see that in the united states why the significant difference . one big difference is that the soviet union lost twenty seven million people how many people in the west know about. well actually i've got some statistics on that i didn't show nonscientific sampling by students

undergraduates not history majors and i asked them how many americans died in world war two the median answer i got was ninety thousand which means they were only three hundred thousand off ok that's not bad that's in the ballpark asked of his university students to personally students mostly freshman game are these are mostly structure and i was at university i used to teach university. a few chairs yet and i asked them how many soviets died of world war two and the median answer i got was one hundred thousand which means that they were only twenty seven million off so these kids know nothing not only about world war two they can't understand what's happening in ukraine they can't stand anything that's going on between the united states and russia now there is an extraordinary degree of ignorance in the united states about world war two. it's not intentional ignorance i think it is i think there is

a the liberal role both officially from the u.s. government the dominant within the u.s. media and particularly perpetuated by hollywood of the rule that the u.s. played the hugo put out a poll just this year asking the questions of the u.s. and six seven european states in your opinion which one country would you say contributed most to the defeat of germany and world war two most americans surprise believe that. they played the biggest role by fifty five seemingly private ryan right brian france most french this is a big change from right after the war right after the war fifty seven percent of french believe that the soviet union played the biggest role and defeat of nazi germany today forty seven percent a plurality believe that the united states played the biggest rise where only fifteen in germany a plurality believe the united states played the biggest role by thirty seven to

twenty seven percent in the u.k. they believe they played the biggest role by fifty one percent god bless there's also that fifteen percent denmark sweden finland norway all also a plurality believe that the u.s. will that because it's ok but that's a function of the cold war that's a function of nato i would say it started it started just after the second world war i turkey and specially for germany because if you remember my stein. ok it was not a religion that you created himself after the second world war it was not. you were you were you believed in germany but you were adviser for the first the west germany army the chief of staff of the. nine hundred forty he was advisor for that he. so it's one of those interesting things if you have good not spare the good nazi ok and then you whitewash the rest of it you know one of the most

important things the legacy of the second world war we have the division of europe we have the cold war. but on the bright side we had the establishment of the united nations charter. and i think that's really significant speed up to the present i think mark how many. posture reports of three i think already. china russia iran north korea there are the revisionist powers i would posit in light of the establishment of the united nations charter and in light of what's going on in syria it's the western powers the revisionist powers if you put it next to the united nations charter we have the french we have the british and the americans going all the way back to one thousand eight hundred six put. in deciding the fate of syria in the middle east by passing in the job they would say it's a legitimate bypass of the united nations charter peter that we're going backwards

and we're not learning some of the very few good things that we got from that conflict that ended in one thousand nine hundred ninety. one of the first item on the agenda for the united nations was nuclear disarmament to make sure there was a doctor and that there's only been seventy two years we haven't gotten exactly close to that i mean the real purpose of the united nations has never been achieved and the potential for the united nations has never been achieved but during world war two roosevelt had initially but different approach in forty two here started to set in mala talk that a trusted general to washington and late may have forty two and that's when roosevelt promised to open up the second front in europe before the end of the one nine hundred forty two and it's also when roosevelt said what we need after that war is for police but that the united states russia britain and china should get together and we should maintain world peace security stability and that was

a vision that clearly was never put into effect but we need leaders now. we're going to act a part of that title we have a deficit of leaders in the institutions under attack markets worse because there is a wheel from the west to twist the idea of the international structures and not only new ones but every kind of strip that you could be on to do. it could be anything i just want to make this is true which we created and i think it was a good thing just after the war to avoid future wars they want to use it as an instrument of foreign policy and that it's very dangerous what we have. said this many many times in this program really a whore the term used in the west the international community what does it mean it means nato membership japan australia new zealand israel and some of the sponsor ok

so again this is a vision of the vision that was supposed to come about with the end of the most horrific war which given the statistics that you've given us most western publics forgotten to have never been taught if you are the speech of. which is foreign minister just after syria was incredible telling that. you know it's not. because it's not the legal setting up but legitimity. legit it was just me personally and also oh you can define it as if they want to say we did for you there is a return to just war. of you know the late medieval period. in the west in the halls of government academia and the media which all echo they continually talk about russia and sometimes china as revisionist or revanche powers

against they don't there's two different world orders we're talking about they refer to the liberal world order not to the u.n. staff. world order they're talking about the world order that they believe started with bretton woods and continued up through the collapse of the soviet union and came to its biggest height of union polarity of u.s. led western hegemony during the one nine hundred ninety s. and what they're talking about is that russia and china returning to positions of great power status in the world are blocking their control of the world whereas russia and china and i'm not going to stand for that k.k. from a realist perspective and of course from a relativist position of weakness they'll to the us prefer the rules bound system one thousand nine hundred five established by the un. whereas the us regards the principle un prince of the security council principles un charter principles of

sovereignty and non interference to be antiquated policies ok i think you're paraphrasing mr john bolton there you know peter one of the things one of the biggest problems and we'll talk about russia's relationship with the west in the next part of the program but i think one of the biggest problems is that you have policymakers and media in the west they can never put themselves in rush's shoes have to look at how they see the world you know nato has demonstrated. that it is it will pursue policies that are beyond the bounds of international law meaning that it. rises above it and we got to be versus legitimacy issue here i mean the russians see nato expansion is a threat ok and the there are you know here we are in two thousand and eighteen and we have. american and other nato countries having their militaries on russia's borders i mean this is the worst nightmare for for the russian leadership

considering today it's focusing on what happened in june one thousand nine hundred one corporates have got a promise in one nine hundred ninety when he allowed the unification of germany that nato would not expand one thumbs with to the east. and then they started to. hedge on that and hungry. i'm sorry but you know now nato has expanded thirteen countries to the east doubled its membership since the end but the real turning point came in two thousand and eight when george bush said we want to expand to ukraine in georgia and that was passed russia's red line and they were there and putin has not allowed our key can't really stop it but he stood up to it and what's happened since has made this a very very dangerous world. beginning with syria and the u.s. involvement in syria and the syrian civil war and then what happened in ukraine and they're very conscious effort to wrest ukraine from the russian orbit and what

we've seen now with not only with nato but with the nuclear confrontation increasing putin's march first state of the nation address announces five new nuclear weapons that can all of what america's ballistic missile defense program but there was the old bridge of let's sit down in talk we haven't heard a response from the well we're going to jump in here we're going to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on some real new state without. the way anti american anti-democratic and you can look at that quite plainly by understanding the stock price approach rather it was that response so it's trading i think there are three hundred thousand dollars a share so the message from charlie munger and warren buffett to americans is unless you've got three hundred thousand dollars to buy one share of berkshire hathaway you're a player you're a peasant here you know they are the neo feudal lords that are building the system

milking the system abusing the system and aggregating wealth as wrong a coupon clippers and nickel and dime are they add nothing to the economy. the new global economic war is unfolding in the realm of education the right to education being supplanted by the right to access education. higher education is becoming just another product that can be bought and sold but it's not just about education anymore it's also about running a business where you could. look at the songs. they could every. want is the place of students in this business model for college i was born now and i'm extremely bored higher education the new global economic war.

welcome back across like we're all things we can sit around people about to remind you we're discussing some real news. ok let me want to finish up on this promise that was made to go to a bunch of that there were the nato alliance would not move further east beyond a united very important united germany. i think it was during the first interview it was a question about that with oliver stone and putin told the reports to go but that is sure to get a signature. not on the premises. and that does not tell you even if you tell me so i didn't expect it but it just i just have one

question at least getting a signature and of course if you don't you didn't get it and and i'm sure exactly the agreement you can sign with or you didn't know it well just ask the iranians. agreement. well they used the ok the u.s. was a party of them it's going to nonetheless you like you want to do. more about nato yeah yeah i mean as a us military veteran of nato operations peter brought up the number of the increase in the number of nato countries since the end of the cold war thirteen almost doubling the size of nato but that hasn't led to an increase in either nato as military strength nor in its security for either itself or the world to the contrary it has led to greater insecurity for europe montenegro and these other countries that haven't contributed to the safety of the people in nato countries

and there's a lot of challenges you know that we need to expand to protect europe from russia right and they don't that when russia resupplies and they feel threatened by nato expansion how could you be threatened by us if it's a fact that nato and its member states are the most aggressive military bloc on earth the number of interventions regime change military operations in the past twenty years or just over that since the end of the soviet union from serbia to iraq to libya to syria to yemen today how could russia not feel threatened by nato they would be fools and if they did you could still see this blatant illegal military aggression as a threat that there is nato is a fig leaf to them to which washington driven paul as long as there's a link in the legitimisation and sholom as it's gotten more and more dangerous yes we're closer to a conflict for more divisions in eastern europe nato plus the

american troops more funding and the russians respond of course and they sent troops to their side of the border they've got nuclear capable the scanner missiles . kaliningrad and now we're developing hypersonic yeah weapons and where the u.s. is trying to make battlefield many nukes more usable right we're living through there it is principally you know this is exponentially more dangerous it reduces reduces decision times it makes strategic conflict much more problematic and difficult to stop even when acceptable that's what's really scary about even acceptable i think we're in a worse position than we ever were in the cold war but it was very clear there was no new world order on the nuclear war as soon as you would use nuclear bomb you would get nuclear bombs right there there's no difference between.

talking about i personally quittance nuclear weapons in my opinion did send up one that reagan did with the ideas in one nine hundred eighty three he started a new. race but this time the troposphere the us and it works actually if you look at us. yes. i have already noted too strong to look at what. does russia we have to do the same i mean you have the anti-ballistic missile treaty the u.s. i walked away from one of the pillars of arms control and as we speak right now we have decision time with iran again i was a very strong critic of the obama's foreign policy but i applauded him for this amazing move in because it's going against the trend of. fighting nuclear proliferation and it should be said it's an example of how we have to disagree with you. start any arms race the china india and the you

have all been developing and you know everybody well you must damn mr you misunderstand me when i think it's putting exactly no. and us that there is a such a strong lobby for a military complex that if you just put some new cards on the table all the systems would start to work. with any controller. as it talks no because if you look at the difference in the defense. the defense of the website the us defense website newspapers or any magazines and they are talking about oh we are going to get again the first place before russia they want to know there is again one billion to develop some well i mean that but that's also a function of the military industrial complex there's

a lot of money to be only you know. it's put in create the trap yes because they're doing it. starting we're going to be a new system of protection and so on all right let the u.s. bankrupt them selves with their. peter. we were talking about the things that obama did well they read the treaty but obama also supported the trillion dollar modernization program over the next thirty years of america's nuclear arsenal which we now estimate is going to probably. price right here he didn't really say have to go. well he did everything out to the nobel to have you know gold only president for a few months before the head of the war committee has said i made a mistake with that no kidding. so you don't know what you were going to get back so no prize is a longer headed. gentleman how do we get out of this downwards spiral.

because i asked this question today on the anniversary of the peak of fascism in europe because the soviet union in the united states along with france along with britain were allies and it was so. world historic moment now look where we stand q how do we get out of this hole or we don't. we have no international leader on a global scale who represents anything beyond his own country's national interest you're talking about the need to see the world for the eyes of your adversaries and nobody is really doing that trump is incapable. of not sure what he's more narrowly focused certainly merkel is not doing that with all my interviews i keep pushing putin to play that role. but he hasn't done that yet but we need somebody to speak for humanity will be called aggressive behavior i'm sorry i'm sorry we did ok and so but between the u.s.

and russia there are three conflict areas now but we've got to find some way to sit down and talk and try to begin to resolve some of you know find something we can work together on to be the problem with the. in the discourse of the lemon because if you sit down and talk peas that ok that's what how it's been painted by the current political establishment except that you've had trouble accused of appeasement and why do you want to talk to north korea moving told him you know go f. themself and is now. it's now. made progress in terms of resolving this thing that result because of trump's threats look out result you could make that claim to syria as well if you when you look at the non western powers that are involved i mean what we could put turkey iran and russia working towards peace you know that's something they don't recognize again

this is seen as a as a strategy of appeasement in this is what i find most. frustrating because we had more we had two major cease fires in the works in syria what power up ended it was the united states. since the since you know. the establishment of the neo. neo liberal global capitalist system which has in evidently led to its own the structure and by the trade of the west anyway it's a originators by the slow transfer of wealth from the west to the east as as the west declines in their relative share of global g.d.p. and other countries rise to the fore until the us and its client states in the west give up on the idea of the uni polar world of us again many where they set the values and standards for those of the world i'm afraid there won't be any peace but there is no doubt that you know polar moment is you know very interesting if not all recognition is not of recognition or is it recognition because the one who

announced it was charles krauthammer and first he went for the unit polar moment and then in two thousand and three said it's the unit pole era it's going to be unbounded in two thousand and five is says well the unipod moment is over so there is a growing recognition for it fukuyama has given up on the end of history but but now as you know of all those books general the us government the us political and it must be said now the european political elite have exceptionalism views that haven't given up on that until there is radical political change which i believe is structurally impossible for policy wise in the united states then it is only the us is economic decline that will allow room for the real both of a multi-polar world i don't believe we need one global leader to lead the pack i think we need recognition the there are multiple multi-polar some theories of power and we need these world leaders recognizing their own limitations russia recognizes

certainly know that it has limits you know where it can exceptionalism. that is what our own limitations is that you know just in my opinion there is a reason for hope. and yes of course mark. domestic because russia is an open country we are more in the cold war when we have in the west such an image of the. soviet union that you know a great country where it's always winter and everybody under you know under the another three and so for instance in one month and in my opinion is that the reason why the west tried to get out of this event when. i don't know the words of thousands. of supporters you see that there are bears roaming around the streets. and we obviously are talking about the world and it will be the end it's not you know it's not intellectuals it's not intelligence or us intelligence it's

normal people you know loving and loving and. they will if they would come to russia they will talk to russia and they will see that. works not so bad in russia actually that there is no aggressivity from from the russian population even with the u.s. cities and all of the quote really that are here many thanks make it here in moscow this is the end of our broadcast segment stay with us for the extended version on or you tube channel see you next time and remember. deep seated myself. i would say i'm not american but americans helped out really.

world war two cures the depression cars united states is concerned prosperity of course from store. for the for us the whole world what it what and. historical real ever since world war two to foment the cold war against russia against communism and. socialists mishmosh. it was so you call me out she also goes to swat so use could call. i think world war two has been distorted credibly by the anglo-american media and that's because they wanted to minish the role of russia. and stalin who actually defeated hitler.

has supported to note that armenia is not ukraine or georgia and that our experience is unique to certain extent we're building on the success and the fielder's of past efforts to address the issues that you're talking about so in many ways we have a leg up on anything that's been tried in the past this is not just a democrat a grassroots effort by the armenian people for the armenian people. ministries police forces and city administrations of many countries depend on one corporation and another by mike was hoping the board doesn't want the presence of

god to just dominate the guns not woods as the theory that he got on into the city it's not possible and proprietary software you don't know the source code isn't that it's such a security risk when you have a black box operating the public eye to microsoft dependency puts governments under a cyber threat and not only that things off put us in more equal softness in the sense of selling the solstice we want all the more for the throngs of people in this from the world. with. these this is the arsenals that often stymied on. your vision starting there was a sting of all the fun is up and describes all the fine.

plus the celebrating victory day which started with a military parade in the morning on dropped out with a spectacular fireworks display. sea of people swept through moscow taking part in the immortal regiment march remembering relatives who died fighting in the great patry optic also to come to south. oh. he was a cia veteran is strode out of the confirmation hearing for donald trump's pick for the new head of the agency that amid protests over her alleged involvement in torture. also protesters burned u.s. flags on the streets of tehran after trump decided to withdraw from.