and control does anyone gain from this impending cataclysm. cross-like in the middle east i'm joined by my guest joe laurie in washington he's the editor in chief of consortium news dot com and author of how i lost my hillary clinton with the forward by julian assange also in washington we have joe he is a fellow at the arab center washington d.c. and in london we have jonathan steele he's an international affairs commentator originally cross-talk rules in effect that means he can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciate joe lauria let me go to you first in washington i'm titling this program stumbling into war you know the more i think about that the events that are unfolding in front of us are so many different angles to look at how a possible conflict could come about what worries you the most in the wake of the decision to walk away from the nuclear deal with iran go ahead joe lauria in washington what worries me most true words john and bolton yes john bolton the

national security adviser has been has been making speeches and writing articles for years about regime change in iran he backs this group which was on the terrorism list state department terrorism list he now is in the passenger seat with a very unsteady driver and netanyahu has one hand on the wheel netanyahu has been able to manipulate trump very easily i think like taking candy from a baby with that ridiculous stage performance where he claimed that iran was restarting their nuclear weapons program they all know except maybe trump that that's all rubbish that the i.a.e.a. has certified that they were they were complying with the deal that's why there's been so much hysteria in europe and they tried micro came to washington merkel they all failed he pulled out why did he pull out one could only imagine it's because they are planning a regime change in iran and i think we're seeing all the signs of that. you know

one hour after trump made that speech in which he said he was getting out of the deal the israelis massively bombed iranian targets inside syria according to time magazine one hour later that's the message that was sent so while the attacks made against iran maybe just in syria now there's no question in my mind that what the military directive that trump also gave to the defense department to prepare against any threat by iran they were going down a very very dangerous road here ok it's go to their second joe in washington how do you assess what joe lauria just said right there because it all of the hallmarks of you know i feel like we're back in two thousand and three looking at the how the media is dealing with this here i mean the massacre of palestinians of the last few days and the way the media described it it was a conflict is it was some kind it was equal to equal sides i mean joe wrote a great article it's called consorting don't use us media white washes gaza gaza

massacre it's perfect title because that's exactly what happened so joe what do you think that this is a preamble to some form of regime change. into round go ahead joe. i mean i get it i get it with the other things but i don't agree that we are both to to have a regime change in iran a regime change in iran or a why the regional confrontation yes there are some. of the old troll there trying basically to the potential of the iran or the pressure on iran. basically to create this alliance between with the between not the neo and some of the arab states basically to put the pressure on that's the series of steps taken in the past few weeks between the strikes in syria the nuclear deal the sanctions. possible something in yemen. you have elections also in lebanon who get who allowed iran also to to flex its muscle somehow. in other countries but i don't

think we get a boat in two thousand and six we had enough in this hypothetical common goals for the top of the spaciousness over you know but the posture of the girl didn't change we didn't see it well at all well i think i think but i think things are changing and i think they're changing very rapidly we have to withdraw all the us were drawing from the the nuclear deal we have has a ball coming out very well in lebanon we have a election surprise in iran and iraq which will we could see seeing a lot of iraq from the united states and possibly iran as well where it's a lot more complicated than the media is portraying it a lot of things are happening on the ground let me go to jonathan steele in london also i really like the analogy that joe lauria gave you know how who's got their hand on the driver's sering wheel because we do have it seems patently clear to me that israel and saudi arabia in tandem would really like to see do something about against iran i mean they may not do it themselves but they're certainly egging on

the president to do it in the rhetoric that's coming out of his administration is just unbelievable i mean it it really it's two thousand and three on steroids to answer our second show and watch it and i'm not saying it's going to happen next week or next month ok but it's they're building towards it jonathan in london go ahead and say well i think trump pulled out of the nuclear deal for two reasons one was to we impose sanctions that gave him the excuse to ramp up sanctions not only u.s. sanctions but intimidating the europeans to cut their dealings with iran to syria to kind of slow motion. color revolution they want to have they're going to have their big demonstrations earlier in the year in iran are very economic issues mainly and then if they want to you know if they want more demonstrations like that . you're in an economy and get people out into the street they think there's a chance they can topple iran through a sort of color revolution the second reason was to provoke if you like the hawks in. wrong in the course of all who never knew could do to do something stupid which

would give a kind of third any justification for using them to bomb well the nuclear sites in iran so i think there's no danger of a u.s. ground invasion of iran right i think it's kind of color revolution provocation and allowing the israelis to find an excuse to bomb ok joe lauria it seems to me that the europeans are beating their chests and. making a lot of statements that we have to go on our own and we don't we can't merkel says we can't look to washington protect us that's really bluster because they've painted themselves in the corner since the end of the cold war they've basically defanged themselves castrated themselves they're going to have to do what the trumpet ministration wants here what's really interesting to me is what coming out of the white house is that even though the u.s. is withdrawn they demand that iran honor the nuclear deal this is really quite amazing well if the europeans are going to end up being spineless as we i predict

that they will be iran is going to start thinking about other options here maybe going back to starting its program but it has assets in the region that they can use a and they can show that they can push back against the united states in an asymmetrical way this is something i worry about go ahead joe laurie in washington. first i agree with jonathan said i think they would prefer a regime change through a color revolution and not war but that's on the cards if necessary as far as the europeans go if so or twice since the cold war since the end of the second world war one since nine hundred sixty seven wanted to go all pulled out of nato and then of course in two thousand and three as you were bringing up peter the europeans are not vote the germans and the french are on the security council of course the french are always on the security council they didn't vote for bush as a resolution to invade iraq and that became a big crisis those are the two main times when europe showed some independence against united states this is the third up. to an empty and unfortunately i agree

with you and what alexander mccurry is wrote in the durand that i republished sort of news that the market the iranian market is much smaller than the us market and the economics of it are going to determine that europe will go along with the us unfortunately although this is an opportunity for europe in my view which has had until recently anyway the best social system probably ever devised but now it's been under the pressure of neoliberal economics particularly with a guy like emanuel macron in france but that this is a chance for europe to be neutral to be independent to be neutral from both nonaligned if you will between russia and the us and to lead the way but it's just that the will is not there you know they've made a lot of noises about standing up to the us when push comes to shove i think they will cave and it's going to be because of economic reasons and that's very unfortunate ok let's go to the second show in washington i'm going to stand in the position that they will cave so that essentially means they're going to abstain ok

. how is iran going to react to all this because joe was already pointed out is and i'm in jonathan that the hardliners in turn around are quite probably happy there this is something they didn't like the deal in the first place and they're going to have to start thinking in terms of defending themselves because we do have american troops in iraq in syria supporting the saudis in yemen and we have i pointed out also has flaws come out on top here in lebanon that it's a powder keg here so how do you think iran's going to react to all of this it does have some strong cards in its hand it has some weak cards go ahead joe. i mean it has strong words but i know there are hundred of them in iran and the hardliners in washington but so far we don't see them in e-bay sickly came out very strong against against us we didn't see a two thousand and six kind of rhetoric so what's happening is there is some kind of iran. u.s.

deal sisters of fourteen in both iraq and libya on those these are largely still in place the local floatation of those going to the some of them basically to to share power so for the two the two sides to change what's wrong with the fuse what changed. it i don't want this. deal as a cornerstone of a tacit understanding with with iran if iran doesn't change her regional behavior so i'm going to take this out and basically go back to the previous order but doesn't mean the kind of sharing power between between the two is not still. obvious and beirut in and by the other places so as this one i don't see this rhetorical as very we are on the verge of world think big but i think iran yes the people actions but it has arguments and it's still early days and we do have the rain ians on a charm a tour around the world with the chinese with the russians and the europeans that isn't done yet so we don't know what direction it's going to go go ahead finish

your point. i know but i mean the issue now is the americans and the iranians are not talking to each of them so they are talking to each other through the europeans so both the americans and the iranians out of pressure to the europeans know this is what about in a very crucial weeks no but that doesn't mean that if it's fatal the europeans are going to go down the confrontation war i think in the u.s. the mood in the me and the public that want confrontation no but there's ok. joe joe child to the pressure that. we go to break here the u.s. has already been threatening european companies with sanctions ok i don't see any dodgy law going on there ok all right gentlemen i'm going to jump in here and we're going to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on the middle east stay with our team.

for a world cup twenty eight team coverage we've signed one of the greatest goalkeepers of all time but there was one more question by the way he's going to be our coach. guys i know you are nervous he's a huge star among us and the huge amount of pressure you have to the center of the beach but how would you and the great the great you are the rock at the back nobody gets past you we need you to get down there we have to go. a low as i want to you know and i'm really happy to join the team for the two thousand and thirteen world cup in russia. the special one come on both appreciate me to just say the radio p.r.t. teams the latest edition to make it up as we go so i need to look.

at that your second passing i found the just. turned. south and taken your last two bang turn. your attitude up to us we all knew it would i tell you i'm sorry but only i could so i write these last words in hopes to put to rest these things that i never got off my chest. i remember when we first met my life turned on each fret . but then my feeling started to change you talked about war like it was a cave still some are fond of you those that didn't like to question our ark and i secretly promised to never be like it said one does not leave a funeral the same as one enters the mind it's consumed with death this one different i speak to you now because there are no other takers. to blame that mainstream media has met its maker.

seventy four design submissions. seven thousand pilings. to join judges. and eight hundred sixteen nonstop days of work. a russian w.b. a jumpy a. and a russian mob stuff. show you how and why the crimea bridge was built. where there's the construction of when you need to transport audrie that will help out of crimea. fausta most of those you know won't go for more familiar with the bridge club. welcome back to crossfire where all things considered i'm peter lavelle remind you we're discussing the middle east.

ok let's go back to jonathan in london and quite sadly as the proxy civil war in syria is winding down we have more. growing passions in the middle east here with trump's decision here how what role do you think syria is going to play in all of this because syria is a sovereign government sovereign state member of the united nations has invited russia and the iranians in his advisors and more to protect their sovereignty here is this going to be the epicenter here because this is where the israelis can snipe at the iranians and they already are doing it and if we have this cooling off period from this decision that's made because like i pointed out the iranians are on a charm offensive if they don't get me thing out of that charm offensive they may decide to do other things do you think that syria is going to be the epicenter where we

could see a simmering conflict get warmer and until it gets hot go ahead jonathan well i want to talk about iraq in a minute but let me first mention your central question was about syria i think there's the danger is that if something happens on the golan heights area in southwestern syria as we've already seen that could have continued to learn has been or could come in with its right massive amount of rockets in southern lebanon if that is the big danger if israel provokes and gets a response to in fact want to have if it wants war with lebanon that could be very dangerous for the region but i think it's important to talk about iraq because u.k. really a very important developments have happened that's one of the best pieces of good news for iraq in several years is the victory. of mucked up outside in the election i mean he is a nationalist he's very anti iran he's very anti the us he stands for non intervention by either of those two countries in his country you rock that's really

important and the paradox is that you may actually get secret talks between the iranians and the americans to try and prevent. having the choice of who becomes the next iraqi prime minister i think both turn around and washington would like. the present prime minister to carry on and they will work their way through these back door negotiations to form a new cabinet so you could actually have cooperation alone it won't be admitted publicly between turning around and washington over the future of iraq that's a very good point john who let me go to joe lauria here nor nominally and under normal circumstances i would completely agree with jonathan but i think that in the wake of triumph decision there is a trust deficit and that's saying something because the united states and iran have had enormous amounts of distress ever since the one nine hundred seventy nine revolution here but i don't see the iranians want to doing the americans any favors right now the americans have dug themselves the deepest possible holes when it comes to iraq and afghanistan here so this could be more of

a bargaining chip for the iranians and in some fashion or another go ahead joe laurie in washington. first to put it on the record neither peter nor i said we're on the verge of a war you know yeah i'm not saying that i'm not saying the u.s. or you're right not just going back to we talked before and also you know your question was never asked about what iran might do with the head of the security its nuclear program so they said that today. on tuesday he said that they would start to enrich again stronger than before it was the words he used now as far as whether the iranians i think johnson has a point there because it's not just doing the americans a favor they don't want. to have power in iran and iraq either because that would. possibly diminish iran's. influence in iraq so they do they would have a common ground to work and don't forget even but after the ninety seven revolution in iran ronald reagan worked with iran in the iran contra scandal so there's

nothing just precluded in realpolitik though we have john bolton who's an idealogue of course and your con so that may or may not happen but it's something to consider that iraq would be a problem for both countries but that would not stop. them to drive towards regime change in iran even if they cooperate on iraq and it's going to the second in washington you know what the the paradox here is that there is no evidence that the iranians really had a serious nuclear weapons program but they signed the deal for. sanctions relief the i.a.e.a. certified that they were in compliance of course then we have trumpets as it was the worst deal in history and they withdraw from it and now it looks like the iranians may possibly return to firing up their centrifuges i mean the then they'll say look we're going after the bomb i mean you can't win for losing in this type of logic here and then throw in the saudis saying well we'll go for the bomb too i

mean if the administration did not and i used the word cascade effect in my introduction this is what's happening we could have an arms race here and then we already have a nuclear power in the middle east and that's named israel here i mean before we didn't have it we weeks or a week ago two weeks ago we didn't see the possibility of an arms race now we do go ahead joe in washington. i mean i know we are caught up in the moment though with the with all of this looks but i don't see we're going to build this structure actually i don't think iran is has has doesn't need a nuclear weapon of this point could never ask for it this was part of the action to be on the table with the with the international powers know that's an attempt to change the dynamic but iran is basically cough the bullet with the. where there are no in syria and iraq and libya they don't need to go into reasonable from station or. to the. races as you measure yes but

which of the other you know that if i go i agree with joe i. just hang on for say i agree with you i mean i think the rain ians are happy with the status quo it's the rhetoric that's coming out of washington that threatens that status quo and if i were in into and i would start reacting to this kind of bombastic ideologically driven. aggression you know you have people like bolton ok i'm not worried about what the iranian you know the revolutionary guards are saying i'm more worried about what john bolton is saying go ahead joe. it's. this one you have michael flynn of the of the board you are saying we put on this oh this. will for the day and then make you the u.s. french american the british like that if it gets close to the if it gets close to i think that's a movie i don't really know know if this is this i'm sorry i mean remember the

rhetoric of two thousand and three joe that was out this words and guess who was around joke john bolton was around so i tend to have a memory here and so does that leave me at the foot of the word change the u.s. changed. that mindset as you are going to vote in this mindset change no it hasn't i'll agree with the what's important i don't think. it's not that important it's better not it's better not to underestimate people like that in the other people might pompei oh these other people that are surrounding trump here. you know let me go to jonathan here go you want to react to this here go ahead. well i think i'll turn to other to agree that one shouldn't overdo the rhetoric saying there's a big step between rhetoric and action and of course these are hardliners they would love to see a different regime in tehran but the question is how we're going to achieve it so i come back to my first point i think the slow motion regime change agenda not a fast motion one they want color revolutions they want

a collapse of the economy they want sanctions to bite they want to keep putting the military pressure on the table but they're willing to wait two three five years maybe they're not coming in tomorrow joe you were disagreeing earlier i'd like to put in a cab here is it. we're after this charm offensive that i've mentioned already twice i don't think it's going to come to anything here but the iranians do have the opportunity to turn to china and russia and russia has certainly been interested in that the chinese is well i mean. in iran will do is just going to have to completely give up on the west we i'd like to remind our viewers you know opinion polls global opinion polls year after year iranians are quite pro-american that is changing right now as the population go ahead joe. well first of all i think we're not just seeing rhetoric missing action here and out of this nuclear deal which is the absolutely absolutely worst thing that trump has done is done

many stupid things this is by far the worst the most dangerous thing he did this is action i agree with jonathan that they prefer a regime change by overthrowing the government but with some groups on the ground that they could control or influence rather than going to war it is no doubt about that but they're not taking i think war off the table there's no timetable here of three to five years maybe too long truck may be gone in two years is going to be an election so this is extremely dangerous situation right here as far as china goes there's an interesting article in the washington post you know they rarely interesting the way it ended it said it explained our china is just ignoring all these threats from the u.s. and they're going to continue of course to trade with iran because they don't trade in dollars for one thing and they're going to avoid american financial institutions to try to evade some kind of sanctions in that europe in fact may want to work with china as a middleman to continue to work with iran i'm not sure that would would work or how would work but the article ended by saying the u.s. may be the country that finds itself being isolated itself rather than isolating

iran so. china does play a huge role in this and i think we have to look at that in terms of how these sanctions might be evaded and the penalties that the u.s. might try to put on europe i think still think that could happen even if they trade through china they might find say air bus or other companies right if they continue to sell their wares to to iran well germany siemens is already come out they've caved they're afraid of the u.s. treasury here i mean let me go to our second joe here how how much does riyadh in tel aviv drive all of this i mean you know i've used the word char many times in his program but i mean trump seems so very charmed by the saudis and by bibi netanyahu go ahead joe. i mean what i said enough time to do this alone is between between the u.s. and israel and saudi arabia. the us goes back to. the interesting part is the saudis in this radio doesn't care much about that it cleared because the they care

about ditto to get around and they want the us to do with themselves mostly but the us is mostly focused on of the deal at this point that you know who is using this the scar basically to take a green light to a lot of that from the us so basically do. something else like against against israel which is by the way approved by. the us and russia will set a strike because that happened and following that and you know who visit. this i don't know i don't know i think i wouldn't say russia agreed russia might not be able to do anything about it there's a big difference between the two ok last word here ten seconds show last word for you. no i mean to the point is i don't think we are going to confront taishan know this that attempt to deter iran or wait level ok might be a tense period for the coming weeks but i think it is a very tense period and i think it's only going to get worse because we don't have

leadership in the world right now in either real leadership in the us or in europe it's going to fall in the model middle east that's it gentlemen many thanks to my guests in washington in london and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at r.t.c. a next time and remember. join me every thursday on the alex simon show and i'll be speaking to guest on the world of politics sports business i'm show business i'll see you then.

in twenty forty you know bloody revolution to tikrit the demonstrations going from being relatively peaceful political protests to be creasing the violent revolution is always spontaneous or is it you know we're here. with video. spilling you know to the former ukrainian president recalls the events of twenty forty. of those who took part in this today over five billion dollars to assist ukraine in these and other calls that will ensure a secure and prosperous and democratic. across europe municipalities are taking their water supply back from private companies. elsewhere they invite private companies to take over the utilities anybody tell us. miss you

guys you've got. pieces of us to quote them out. of where you live. locals are ready to stand up for the basic human right of access to water it's about water but it's also much more it's about the hurt and the redistribution of. debt downwards.

north korea cancels a high level meeting with the sound after the u.s. carries out large scale military drills that pyongyang has also threatened to pull out of the highly anticipated summit with donald trump also this hour. those who suggest that the gaza violence has anything to do with the location of the american embassy are sorely mistaken after a second consecutive day of clashes between israelis and palestinians the u.s. stays the relocation of its embassy to jerusalem did not stop the bloodshed. and with less than a month until kickoff from football legend and r.t. host peter schmeichel continues his tour of the world cup host city he takes a look at most of all the dog.