decapitation strike so part of the problem is the united states has no humility we're the number one superpower the war machine runs on autopilot if we have these planes ready to fly these military exercises we're going to do and eat our dust and like and that just doesn't set a good tone for diplomacy and i think when you had the great thaw with the olympic truce and at first north korea not complaining about the war exercises the earlier version of the war exercises that was an astonishing concession by them and then we have to rub their nose in it by saying ok well now these air force exercises are going to include the f. twenty two and b. fifty two although i did see a report yesterday that maybe they're going to pull back the b. fifty two but it doesn't set a good precedent to go ahead and do this and rather north korea's nose in it when we're about to go into diplomacy exactly go back to the professor in boston it's one of the problems we have here is that unfortunately particularly in since the end of the cold war diplomacy is often with appeasement and i think we need to get

away from that if we're going to make any kind of progress go ahead in boston. yeah that's very important point to him and john bolton was the guy who years that you know appeasement he preferred a regime change or a military option in solving the problem as you know well and then he was the guy who described the agreed framework of nine hundred ninety four as a kind of appeasement and also the nuclear iran deal well also appeasement but if we want to genuinely solve the situation in a peaceful way you know if you know interaction of diplomatic matters or been that's or as a jenny pointed out you know two things some sort of really important one is how to manage expectation inflated expectation in united states especially in south korea and also how to deal with uncertainty important masses we have to think about it is hard to deal with you know earn certain or risky outcomes ultimately in such kind

of situations actors will try to minimize the loss none next muslim to me and so at this kind of you know some precarious and uncertain situation about the final outcome of the summit meeting and the following diplomatic negotiations between the united states and north korea when you to increase in more communication because trust building some sort of understanding or mutual understanding is a sensual process and for that corporation a communication communication is basically means you know more diplomatic interactions in every level and not just a summit level but at the same time a high ranking in the military and economic aspect in every you know levels of you know communication ok we're going to i'm going to jump in here we're going to go to a short break if i may we're going to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on the upcoming summit state with our are kids

. in twenty forty you know bloody revolution to the demonstrations going from being relatively peaceful political protests to be creasing the violent revolution is always spontaneous or is it just a lawyer here but i mean you know liz put video through me in the new bill is that i new split needle the former ukrainian president recalls the events of twenty fourteen. those who took part in the state over five billion dollars to assist ukraine in these and other calls that will ensure a secure and prosperous and democratic.

we have to judge countries and lead there said the rector gives case per case so we need more objective but the reality is. you know media tries to get the facts but also leave. their worldview so this is where social media and direct communication comes in unfortunately it's sometimes called fake news it sometimes is but it's sometimes actually a different world view that they just fake news. hour for people. welcome back to cross talk where all things are considered i'm peter remind you we're discussing the upcoming summit.

ok let's go to kevin at the very last second you want to jump in so you can jump in now go ahead kevin in washington. just to follow up on the professor's comment i thought it was very interesting and important to show him who's the special advisor to president in south korea his statement after the north korean statement of concern and postponing the meeting that was supposed to happen in south korea so the south korea will continue to be an aggressive mediator and i thought that was very important and very hopeful that no one's going to control trump right but i think we especially people that do want peace and i'm like peter i'm agnostic i'm no fan of trump but if he brings about peace i'm all for it those of us who really advocate peace and want to see a resolution it's about koreans making peace as much about what trump wants now trying to go always gets in the way of everything but the truth of the united states can't support koreans making peace then we need to stay out of a completely agree that i think this is what again the mainstream media can't get

their head around that it's about the korean people's north and south first and foremost ok and then if the u.s. is the interloper here jenny you want to also react go ahead jump in well i mean i'm not sure i necessarily agree with that completely ok because the u.s. does play a big role here because the north koreans believe the u.s. plays a big role here and so yes there has been movement on into korean relations but at the end of the day the north koreans don't look to start to really solve the security issues because the enemy still really is the united states and that is sort of the core of their identity and of course their worries i wanted to piggyback on the professor's comments as well to say that you know i think there is a problem here in the problem is with the consistency of messaging and in an active negotiation process you can't have these competing narratives you know bolton is no longer a fox news commentator he is now the national security advisor and so what he says carries weight and so if you're negotiating with the secretary of state and he is

telling you one thing and then you have the national security adviser saying something completely different. public you know in the public in the media regardless of whether or not he is and actually involved in the process this works to undermine any confidence in what the secretary of state is saying and so this has been a problem with the trump administration since the beginning is that there is no consistency there is no discipline and now when we are in active negotiations it is important to rein those messages in you know professor i'm really glad that jenny said that because my perception is and again i don't know how much we should weigh bolton's words it's still early days in his tenure but one of the things i think is very interesting is that i get the perception in looking at the cable news and so-called experts they're always experts on everything but they never get anything right the perception that the perception is is that you know there's going to be some kind of unification but under american terms there's going to be the end of

the north korean regime and the u.s. will keep its troops there and it's those troops welcome world all the way up to china i mean this is this fairy tale that they but i think they actually believe it ok and i obviously the north will not allow that to happen and china certainly would not be interested in that i agree with jenny we have these very different narratives and they should be coming together and not in parallel during these negotiations go ahead professor in boston. you know as you guys pointed out there's a huge perception gap but let me highlight you know a perception gap going on between here in the united states and south korea from the south korean people's point of view of course no nuclear capability of north korea is a big deal but conventionally in north and south korea already has been placed in a kind of balance of a terrorist situation if one side initiates an economy full blown were the other

side would be you know both sides would be completely annihilated so if south korean people are fully aware of such kind of risk damages in that sense kind of situations and having the nuclear capability of north korea of course it has more you know some concerns but not like you know the united states so we're hearing tonight is that what japan nuclear north korea is a kind of a new threat and then looks like an impending threat but at least to the majority of south korean people of course it's a very important issue and we need to take care of it but it's not so it's a kind of impending issue like in united states so how to never with on these different perception gap between the two countries and the people and leaders of these two countries are there very very important i agree completely here kevin one of the things that i think is an impediment to all of this and i'll just use the shorthand term deep state deep state in the united states is it. what if there

is peace you know breaks out on the peninsula what is the usefulness of having american troops there and then you look at all of the in tangling alliances the united states has in the pacific we think about taiwan think about japan and they're going to be saying oh well they're going to leave there where they're going to leave us behind and then you know you this could start an arms race here i'm much like the saudi arabia if iran decides to to walk away from the the great deal . that was in play then do you think this is really one of the major concerns or not really concern in the pentagon for example they're not particularly interested in the korean people but they're interested in their strategic positioning and south korea as one big strategic position for the united states in the world go ahead. well and also connecting to the previous point you should not expect consistency out of the trumpet ministration they're incompetent they don't know what they're doing they've never done anything like this i do tend to take

a more positive view because of my connection to people's movements in the region remember this was a people's movement that got rid of the prior former conservative president of south korea and moon ran on a revival of the sunshine policy and to go shooting with the north and now he's wildly popular he's the most popular leader in the in the world he's over eighty five percent popularity i think including for his negotiations with north korea but also you have a strong people's movement on against the u.s. south korean based on jay's you island against a fat anti-missile system which is seen to be very provocative you have strong people's movements in japan against u.s. military presence particularly in okinawa and if we see some diplomatic process progress it could lead the way to something like a north east asia nuclear weapons free zone now i'm not naive about outside interests and the abbaye government for example maybe is a little bit nervous about what sharing on certainly china has an important role to play maybe a positive role as

a guarantor of north korean security as they move towards if they move towards denuclearization so there are all sorts of ways this could go but peace has a proliferating effect i think as do missiles and i think if we do make progress towards peace then that may spread through the region and you could have something that might be north east asia a nuclear free zone now the only thing about that is united states with our land based i.c.b.m.'s and our submarine base missiles all over the world can obliterate north korea or any target anytime they want we want so to say denuclearization of the peninsula what exactly does that mean when united states can hit targets any place within thirty minutes or whatever so that has to be taken into account so i do think china has a role to play a deterrent role or a guarantor of north korea's security if north korea is going to give up. i don't think that's probably i think that's why the. made two trips to beijing probably to get that clear jenny i'm so glad that everyone here has mentioned president moon

because i think he's a real life hero to talk us through the strategy he has to be very very careful and he has to finesse a lot of things here he's doing a good job so far what do you expect to happen moving forward what is he going to have to do and what does he have to worry about go ahead well you know i think he made the right moves you know during the olympics to be able to have those direct into korean talks and then to be able to move that from talk about the olympics into more broader security interests and so i think you know he's done that part right he opened the door to diplomacy he made sure that the u.s. was also at the table but now the problem is of course that now you know we do have the power declaration there is a lot of ambiguity within it but it does build obligations again and moon needs to be conscious of that and he's very conscious of not just what south korea wants out of this process but what north korean expectations are and i think this is what

you've seen now over the past couple of days is you know when when north korea is now protesting the idea that they're using strategic strategic assets in a military jail this does not bode well for the spirit of the penguins i'm declaration and this could fall apart easily we've seen it fall apart in the past and so there has to be you know greater concern now as to you know what are both sides thinking what are the expectations how do we continue down a positive path. you know a professor in one of the things that you know that is very valuable when you are in negotiations like this is to be able to imagine being in the other guy's shoes ok this is a kind of dialogue here but you know i don't see that in western policymaking they could never imagine themselves in the you know they you know the american people western public so i don't even think a realize that north korea is surrounded by some of the most sophisticated military hardware in the world the biggest military

exercises in the world and you know there is this perception you know that somehow the the west is going to take the north and everyone's going to sing around the campfire singing kumbaya it's going to be a lot more difficult than that and i think and i don't think the publics are being prepared for that because anything doing anything like that flying the b. fifty two so that's a concession you're conceding that's appeasement that's exactly what you get and that and this is this is what's really dangerous here because the trumpet is going to be boxed in you know on the up again like i make gnostic about trying i'm but i do believe in a process here go ahead professor right i mean great point it's always very difficult to understand the other side you know from the other sides you know point of view but i'm too poor you know we need to think about korean perspective of course urias is not necessarily you know justifying the regime use know that threat

north korean people or the regime might feel for the united states so now as you pointed out you know for instance let's go back to the north korean nuclear weapons program i mean their conventional weapons system is pretty or their economic power is pretty. strong at all so in that context a nuclear weapon may be the only guarantee or regime or in a security guarantee they might think like so here in united states we try to understand them. nuclear program as a kind of aggressive defensive kind of program but from the north korean perspective i think they're not going to be used in a nuclear weapon to conquer or are not going to entire united states if that's the case you know moved regime will disappear on earth it's quiet for sure so basically the hands are so now penn percent of north korean you know at least you know the korean workers party people if they want to make a you know collective suicide and they're going to use

a nuclear weapon against the united states if that's not the case they're going to use it so if you want to use things one k. i'm sorry just i have to jump in here this program always surprising excellent gas excellent discussion many thanks to my guests in washington and in boston and thanks to our viewers for watching us here darkie see you next time and remember rules. for a world cup twenty eight team coverage we've signed one of the greatest goalkeepers available to us but there was one more question by the way was going to be our coach. guys i know you are nervous he's a huge star among us and the huge amount of pressure you have to the center of the beach but how would you and you go all the great game the great the good you are

the rock at the back nobody gets past you we need you to get down let's go. alone and just i want to you know and i'm really happy to join that for the thousand and three in the world cup in russia meet this special one it was also appreciated me to just take the radio. latest edition to make up a bigger. book. can a site genetically modified organisms the system kids in the food industry in the one nine hundred ninety s. . guidance on taking that in the night and what does that have to do with g.m. .

trysts. almost sort of. like this is a chemical widely used to kill we. listen to those like me who first like the deer in the street. they decide to take the runs are first possible temptations. that can occur to just scientists proof that g.m. products really awful on the human race to science or fence to world free of g.m.'s in crisis eight wouldn't even be able seem as we pass the points of never send. i thought. that i. thought that i was that shallow homophobe out of it

but i think. that is probably. the best. here in kiev in recent days it might dawn independence square has turned into a full scale war zone. more clashes in ukraine's capital kiev. there is absolutely no you shall like to go with your heart caricature anybody who would then. now on the brink of

a civil war at least seventy dead so far and the death toll rising it you can allude you you sure as we were a new music stockholm and. what we saw here today was a revolution. that it was initially but it's going to have invested over five billion dollars to assist ukraine in these and other goals was i. assume when you go to you will go to the. nato has expanded into thirteen countries up to the borders of russia thirteen countries. focus has to be on not allowing ice into hot wall between ukraine and russia. that the. that the team of boys in the city would just look when the new buildings to be truthful.

mug the time up a little. sliver luck . ukraine. it's an ancient and proud land.

with a rich history filled with much beauty heroism and sacrifice. ukraine is a border land. a place where east meets west. this is the flag of ukraine the blue represents the sky the gold its seemingly endless fields of wheat. ukraine is a prize many have sought. and much blood spilled in the quest to possess it. ukraine has been the pathway for western powers as they attempted to conquer the east. in world war one. and world war two. and every time the

ukrainian people ended up paying the highest price for these grand games of power. history doesn't repeat but it surely rhymes said mark twain. if one looks closely at the history of ukraine one will notice many rhymes. being surrounded by stronger powers ukraine has needed a lot of cunning to survive and the art they truly mastered with time is the art of changing sides. in the middle of the seventeenth century ukrainian leader. broke a truce agreement made with poland siding more powerful russia. just over fifty years later as the russians swedish war was raging another ukrainian leader ivan mazeppa bro. the union with russia when he switched sides joining forces with the swedish invaders many times ukrainian history was written by third

parties seeking to keep the gains of a revolution at any cost russia agreed to the humiliating conditions of the breast with of one nine hundred eighteen which turned ukraine into a german protectorate another historical document to change the fate of ukraine was the molotov ribbentrop pact of one thousand nine hundred thirty nine one of many such agreements being signed between european countries and rising germany. attempting to protect his nation from the approaching nazi threat. joseph stalin negotiated a treaty of nonaggression with adolf hitler while promising each other piece of the soviet and german foreign ministers molotov and ribbentrop realigned the map of eastern europe splitting it into german and soviet spheres of influence. no sooner had the moloch ribbentrop pact been signed then poland was split and in

september of one nine hundred thirty nine eastern poland awoke to be western ukraine and a part of the family of soviet republics and the u.s.s.r. . but even this bold dividing of lands and nations only delayed the inevitable germany broke its promise to the u.s.s.r. . on june twenty second one thousand nine hundred forty one germany invaded the u.s.s.r. launching barber rossa the largest military operation in world history. barbara was aiming for st petersburg moscow and kiev ukraine three destinations of major significance ukraine with its rich lands and resources was an important industrial and economic source for the u.s.s.r.

to cut it off from the soviet union would strike a big blow indeed. for most of the soviet union the second world war was about fighting the invaders of the land. but it wasn't quite so simple for ukraine the truth is ukraine has never been a united country. when world war two broke out a large part of western ukraine's population welcomed the german soldiers as liberators from the reese. certainly forced upon them soviet rule and openly collaborated with the germans. the real scale of collaboration was not announced for many years after the war but we now know that whole divisions and battalions were formed by ukrainian collaborators such as s.s. galaxy and not to go and roll into battalions. just in the beginning of the war more than eighty thousand people from college chain

a region voluntarily enrolled into division s.s. galut seen in a month and a half notorious for their extreme cruelty towards the polish jewish and russian people on the territory of ukraine. members of these military groups came mostly from the organization of ukrainian nationalists b.-o. un founded in one nine hundred twenty nine this organization had an ultimate goal of creating an ethnically pure independent ukraine and considered terror an acceptable tool for achieving their ends their official flag was black and red bland and blood it will remain in ukraine's history long after the o. un will cease to exist in early one nine hundred forty the most radical nationalistic part of the organization of ukrainian nationalists got its own leader step on bond era severely anti semitic an anti communist he proclaimed an independent ukraine in one nine hundred forty one. his german allies frowned upon

such an act of self will and it landed him in prison for nearly all the second world war not participating in the events physically still managed to successfully spread his ideology many independent historians estimate that the zero un militia exterminated from one hundred fifty to two hundred thousand jews on ukrainian territory occupied by the germans by the end of one nine hundred forty one. the most notorious and outrageous massacre took place september twenty ninth and thirtieth nineteen forty one in kiev. of the city of kiev and its vicinity must appear on monday september twenty ninth by eight o'clock in the morning. bring documents money and valuables and also warm clothing linen cetera. not follow this order and are found elsewhere

will be shot. thirty three thousand seven hundred seventy one jews were killed in this two day operation of the nazis and ukrainian militia. another outrageous massacre was carried out by the ukrainian insurgent army and the bond faction of the organization of ukrainian nationalists in german occupied polish. and eastern between one nine hundred forty three and one nine hundred forty four this genocide of poles was led by me call eleven thirty five thousand to sixty thousand people involved and twenty five to forty thousand eastern. fell victim to this massive ethnic cleansing operation. sensing the inevitable loss of the german troops the organization of ukrainian nationalists gave up on their former ally and began fighting equally again.