sure and i was reading to get a little world of politics sports business i'm show business i'll see you then. chose seemed wrong. but old rules just don't call. me old yet to shape our disdain to come out to it and in again trade because betrayal. when so many find themselves worlds apart we choose to look for common ground.

oh and welcome to cross talk we're all things considered i'm peter lavelle summit or no summit that's the question north korea's threat of a no show in singapore on june twelfth is a reminder to washington that north korea will not merely cave to american demands or should i say john bolton's demands if there's going to be an agreement it's going to take time and patience to the americans of the north koreans have enough of either. cross talking in the upcoming summit i'm joined by my guest kevin martin in washington he is president of peace action and peace action education fund as well as coordinator of the korea peace network also in washington we have jenny town she is managing editor of thirty eight north and in boston we cross to. he is an assistant professor at baruch college city university of new york and

a specialist on korea and asian affairs all right cross talk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want i always appreciate jamie lynn and jenny let me go to you first here do you think there's still going to be in summit or are we just get in the end the preamble process of you know everybody's kind of feeling everyone out and finding out what the lay of the land because i think would be cable stations in the us tend to overreact to all kinds of things go ahead jenny. they mean they definitely overreact and the fact that we haven't heard this coming from concerned than himself i would assume that some a process this and the process is still moving and that we should expect it to happen but i think it is a reminder that you know there are obligations on all sides i mean the north koreans are not simply as you said not simply just going to do things unilaterally they do expect or it's a break aisha and it will take time and they're not interested in a model especially the libyan model where you know it ended up with the position of deposing of qaddafi and so this idea too is that you know they also expect to have

reset recall actions along the way not simply at the end of a process and i think you know that needs to be taken into account even in the messaging as we move forward you know kevin more or less the same question to you because again i think a lot of nuance is lacking in the coverage of this very very important story is that the perception is that the north koreans and there's preconditions like surrender give up all of your weapons your program and then we can talk now any rational person that has an understand of international relations and diplomacy which unfortunately is terribly lacking at times in washington knows that it's a tit for tat it's a learning process you have to start learning to trust each other that's step one go ahead. well and i think it's important to remember that the most important president in this process is president moon of korea not president trump of the united states it's always all about trump right everything is always all about

trump except this isn't president moon is not only trying to bring about peace and diplomacy on the peninsula he's trying to reclaim more independence and sovereignty in a relationship with the polar world superpower and so far he's been doing it extremely deftly and i think we should be looking to that meeting here in washington on may twenty second between trump and moon as a very important step in setting the stage for later talks including this time between trump and kim ok let's go to go to boston professor i mean more or less the same question again to you here i mean with the added county out is how much is american domestic politics playing in this because again if you look at the mainstream media the liberal media they have a hard time. digesting this story that trump could be part of a peace making world historic event here they're very hesitant i mean i'm i make gnostic i'm a peace ok and i don't care who gets you there ok but that's not the case in

american domestic politics go ahead professor in boston. right as you pointed out here in the united states particularly in the mainstream news media don't want to give credit to president trump. as jenny pointed out important thing is that the statement you know criticizing john bolton or even canceling the summit meeting came from directly from. from counterpart diploma you know john bolton in the past and. so on so it's kind of individual statements highlight that the north korean government officially still is very much interested in the coming summit meeting with the president trump i think if that's the case ok jenny what do you think the first steps are going to be because unfortunately. maybe this is because of the bolton affected and just the perceptions of north korea in general you know what the end result is

a nuclear free peninsula i think that's the ultimate goal but that's going to take a long time to get there stationing of american troops in the south so far the north has not really put a whole lot of demands on that but we know that that will probably be part of the process as well i mean what we know is some of this coming up in singapore it's not going to decide everything it might start the process of deciding something and i think that's the way it should be looked at go ahead jimi yeah i think it you're exactly right it is that you know this summit is not a one off it's not supposed to solve all of the problems there's only so much you can do in a one day meeting at a high level meeting you're not going to get into the details and this is been part of the problem is that this isn't necessarily how the u.s. does diplomacy and so it's been a very uncomfortable and very uncertain process along the way normally this would come after you've already negotiated out the details yet rather than setting the mandate and the objectives of what has to be in a deal so i think you know there's

a lot here that it is very uncertain thing. there's been very bad expectation management along the way coming from both the u.s. as well as the south korean government raising expectations too high and i think you know along this way we have to understand that there's a lot that comes out in public messaging that isn't necessarily what's being talked about behind closed doors because it is a negotiation and neither side is going to publicly publicly talk about the full range of things where there is room for negotiation because obviously they're not going to share their hands i think we need to keep perspective keep our expectations realistic as to what we expect to see and yes there might be some concrete moves made at the beginning hopefully there are some you know very clear objectives of what has to be included in a deal and then it gets passed down to the negotiators to actually work out the details very good point you know kevin. decided to pull out of the iran deal if

you if you look at his reasoning it had nothing to do with the deal itself the i.a.e.a. . gave a clean bill of health to turan and everything he talked about was other things than if we could use the analogy of a basket you want to put more eggs in the basket missiles human rights all these things here do you fear that this is what the political class is going to do to be a spoiler because you know we can all speculate what john bolton's role in this is we don't know yes it's been in the job very long ok but i mean i worry that these extra things will be added ok regime change the type of regime hype of system that's going to be that's going to solve our everything we should be very focused on one thing and that might maybe just might be doable kevan. well i don't think bolton's role is going to be positive or good and certainly people that have

studied this issue know that he helped to scuttle the last agreement that was negotiated under the clinton administration the agreed framework when he was in the bush administration i have to say though that the recent protest by the north korean government the u.s. south korean war exercises makes all the sense in the world for them to have complained why in the world we have to do these twice a year the largest military exercises in the world we're not sure that our stuff is going to work what are my tax dollars paying for and the fact that it was reported that the f. twenty two and be fifty two were used of course it looks to north korea like a practice for an invasion or a decapitation strike so part of the problem is the united states has no humility we're the number one superpower the war machine runs on autopilot if we have these planes ready to fly these military exercises we're going to do and eat our dust and the like now and that just doesn't set a good tone for diplomacy and i think when you had the great thaw with the olympic

truce and at first north korea not complaining about the war exercises the earlier version of the war exercises that was an astonishing concession by them and then we have to rub their nose in it by saying ok well now these air force exercises are going to include the f. twenty two and b. fifty two although i did see a report yesterday that maybe they're going to pull back the b. fifty two but it doesn't set a good precedent to go ahead and do this and rather north korea's nose in it when we're about to go into diplomacy exactly go back to the professor in boston it's one of the problems we have here is that unfortunately particularly in since the end of the cold war diplomacy is often equally to do with appeasement and i think we need to get away from that if we're going to make any kind of progress go ahead in boston. yeah that's very important point them in john bolton was the guy who years the you know appeasement he preferred regime change or military

option in solving the problem as you know well and then he was the guy who described the agreed framework of nine hundred ninety four as a kind of appeasement and also the nuclear iran deal also appeasement but if we want to genuinely solve the situation in a peaceful way you know if you know interaction of diplomatic matters or been that's are as jenny pointed out you know two things some sort of really important one is how to manage expectation inflated expectation in united states specially in south korea and also how to deal with uncertainty important masses we have to think about is how to deal with you know earn certain or risky outcomes ultimately in such kind of situations actors will try to minimize the loss none next muslim to me and so at this kind of you know some precarious and uncertain situation about the final outcome of the summit meeting and the following diplomatic negotiations

between the united states and north korea when he had to increase in a more communication because trust building some sort of understanding or mutual understanding is a sensual process and for that corporation a communication communication is basically means you know more diplomatic interactions in every level and not just in a summit level but at the same time a high ranking in the military and economic aspect in every you know levels of you know communication ok we're going to i'm going to jump in here we're going to go to a short break if i may we're going to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on the upcoming summit state with our kids. seventy four deserves a. seven thousand islands. to join judges. eight hundred sixty nonstop days of. the russian

w.b. . under russian stuff. show you how. long the crimea bridge was built. with those the construction of what you need to transport. that will help the crimea. most of those while the couple more familiar with it a bit but. in some american cities the police have built themselves cling to reputation people who walk on the streets of the united states who are at risk from the very people who are supposed to protect that were people are no more afraid of the police than of those. who can see something happening and this is

like i don't want to call the cops let that happen rather than call the cops and those young black men lose their lives chasing the with the team goes on the trigger you never know better safe than sorry i don't know that someone else is going to pull a gun so yes unfortunately around and around here we end up killing our guns off the death toll from such preclusion this place to bill clinton. welcome back across all things considered i'm peter remind you we're discussing the upcoming summit. ok let's go to kevin at the very last second you want to jump in so you can jump in now go ahead kevin in washington. just to follow up on the professor's comment i thought it was very interesting and important showing him who's the special advisor to president in south korea his statement after the north korean statement of

concern and postponing the meeting that was supposed to happen in south korea so the south korea will continue to be an aggressive mediator and i thought that was very important and very hopeful that no one's going to control trump right but i think we especially people that do want peace and i'm like peter i'm agnostic i'm no fan of trump but if he brings about peace i'm all for it those of us who really advocate peace and want to see a resolution it's about koreans making peace as much about what trump wants but trying to go always gets in the way of everything but if trump of the united states can't support koreans making peace then we need to stay out of a completely agree that i think this is what again the mainstream media can't get their head around that it's about the korean people north and south first and foremost ok and then the u.s. is the interloper here jenny you want to also react go ahead jump in well i mean i'm not sure i necessarily agree with that completely ok because the u.s.

does play a big role here because the north koreans believe the u.s. plays a big role here and so yes there has been movement on into korean relations but at the end of the day the north koreans don't look to start to really solve the security issues because the enemy still really is the united states and that is sort of the core of their identity and of course their worries i wanted to piggyback on the professor's comments as well to say that you know i think there is a problem here in the problem is with the consistency of messaging and in an active negotiation process you can't have these competing narratives you know bolton is no longer a fox news commentator he is now the national security advisor and so what he says carries weight and so if you're negotiating with the secretary of state and he is telling you one thing and then you have the national security adviser saying something completely different. public you know in the public in the media regardless of whether or not he isn't actually involved in the process this works to undermine any confidence in what the secretary of state is saying and so this

has been a problem with the trump administration since the beginning is that there is no consistency there is no discipline and now when we are in active negotiations it is important to rein those messages in you know professor i'm really glad that jenny said that because my perception is and again i don't know how much we should weigh bolton's words it's still early days in his tenure but one of the things i think is very interesting is that i get the perception in looking at the cable news and so-called experts they're always experts on everything but they never get anything right the perception that the perception is is that you know there's going to be some kind of unification but under american terms there's going to be the end of the north korean regime and the u.s. will keep its troops there and it's those troops woke up world all the way up to china i mean this is this fairy tale that they but i think they actually believe it ok and i obviously the north will not allow that to happen and china certainly

would not be interested in that i agree with jenny we have these very different narratives and they should be coming together and not in parallel during these negotiations go ahead professor in boston. you know as you guys pointed out there's a huge perception gap but let me highlight you know a perception gap going on between here in the united states and south korea from the south korean people's point of view of course no nuclear capability of north korea is a big deal but conventionally in north and south korea already has been placed in a kind of balance of a terrorist situation if one side initiates anaconda fullblown were the other side would be you know both sides would be completely annihilated so if south korean people are fully aware of such kind of risk damages in that sense kind of situations and having the nuclear capability of north korea of course it has more

you know some concerns but not like united states so we're hearing tonight is that what japan nuclear north korea is a kind of a new threat and then looks like an impending threat but at least to the majority of south korean people of course it's a very important issue and we need to take care of it but it's not so it's a kind of impending issue like in united states so how to never with on these different perception gap between the two countries and the people and leaders of these two countries they're very very important i agree completely here kevin one of the things that i think is an impediment to all of this and all this use the shorthand term deep state deep state in the united states is it. what if there is peace you know breaks out on the peninsula what is the usefulness of having american troops there and then you look at all of the in tangling alliances the united states has in the pacific we think about taiwan think about japan and

they're going to be saying oh well they're going to leave there where they're going to leave us behind and then you know you this could start an arms race here i'm much like the saudi arabia if iran decides to to walk away from the the great deal . that was in play then do you think this is really one of the major concerns or not really concern in the pentagon for example they're not particularly interested in the korean people but they're interested in their strategic positioning and south korea as one big strategic position for the united states in the world go ahead. well and also connecting to the previous point you should not expect consistency out of the trumpet ministration they're incompetent they don't know what they're doing they've never done anything like this i do tend to take a more positive view because of my connection to people's movements in the region remember this was a people's movement that got rid of the prior former conservative president of south korea and moon ran on a revival of the sunshine policy and the go shooting with the north and now he's

wildly popular he's the most popular leader in the in the world he's over eighty five percent popularity i think including for his negotiations with north korea but also you have a strong people's movement on against the u.s. south korean based on jay's you island against the fat anti-missile system which is seen to be very provocative you have strong people's movements in japan against u.s. military presence particularly in okinawa and if we see some diplomatic process progress it could lead the way to something like a north east asia nuclear weapons free zone now i'm not naive about outside interests and the abbaye government for example maybe is a little bit nervous about what sharing on certainly china has an important role to play maybe a positive role as a guarantor of north korean security as they move toward if they move towards denuclearization so there are all sorts of ways this could go but peace has a proliferating effect i think as do missiles and i think if we do make progress towards peace then that may spread through the region and you could have something

that might be north east asian nuclear free zone now the only thing about that is united states with our land based i.c.b.m.'s and our submarine base missiles all over the world can obliterate north korea or any target anytime they want we want so to say denuclearization of the peninsula what exactly does that mean when united states can hit targets any place within thirty minutes or whatever so that has to be taken into account so i do think china has a role to play a deterrent role or a guarantor of north korea's security if north korea is going to give up. that going think that's probably i think that's why the. made two trips to beijing probably to get that cleared jenny i'm so glad that everyone here has mentioned president moon because i think he's a real life hero. talk us through the strategy he asked to be very very careful and he has to finesse a lot of things here he's doing a good job so far what do you expect to happen moving forward what is he going to have to do and what does he have to worry about go ahead. well you know i think he

made the right moves you know during the olympics to be able to have those direct into korean talks and then to be able to move that from talk about the olympics into more broader security interests and so i think you know he's done that part right he opened the door to diplomacy he made sure that the u.s. was also at the table but now the problem is of course that now you know we do have the power declaration there is a lot of ambiguity within it but it does build obligations again and moon needs to be conscious of that and he's conscious of not just what south korea wants out of this process but what north korean expectations are and i think this is what you've seen now over the past couple of days is you know when when north korea is now protesting the idea that they're using strategic strategic assets in a military jail this does not bode well for the spirit of the penguins i'm declaration and this could fall apart easily we've seen it fall apart in the past

and so there has to be you know greater concern now as to you know what are both sides thinking what are the expectations how do we continue down a positive path you know professor you know one of the things that you know that is very valuable when you are in negotiations like this is to be able to imagine being in the other guy's shoes ok this is a kind of dialogue here but you know i don't see that in western policy making they could never imagine themselves in the you know the you know the american people western public so i don't think you realize that north korea is surrounded by some of the most sophisticated military hardware in the world the biggest military exercises in the world and you know there is this perception you know that somehow the west is going to take the north and everyone's getting around the campfire singing kumbaya it's going to be a lot more difficult than that and i think you know i don't think. publics are

being prepared for that because anything in doing anything like that flying the b. fifty two so that's a concession you're conceding that's appeasement that's exactly what you get and that and this is this is what's really dangerous here because the trumpet is going to be boxed in you know that not again like i make gnostic about trump i'm but i do believe in a process here go ahead professor right i mean great point number it's always very difficult to understand the other side you know from the other sides you know point of view but i want to point you know we need to think about it in a month korean perspective question obviously it's not necessarily you know just to find the regime is slow all that that threat north korean people or the regime might feel for the united states so now as you pointed out you know for instance let's go back to the north korean nuclear weapons program i mean their conventional weapons system is pretty old their economic power is pretty old and best strong at

all so in that context a nuclear weapon may be the only guarantee a regime or in a security guarantee they might think like that so here in united states we try to understand they're not going to nuclear program as a kind of aggressive or defensive kind of program but from the north korean perspective i think they're not going to used in a nuclear weapons to conquer or are not the entire united states if that's the case you know most can resume will disappear from on earth it's quite for sure so so basically the hands are so now ten percent of north korean you know at least you know the korean workers party people if they want to make a you know collective suicide and they're going to use the nuclear weapon against the united states if that's not the case they're going to use it so if you notice that is one k. i'm sorry just i have to jump in here this program always lies an excellent guess excellent discussion many thanks to my guest in washington and in boston and thanks to our viewers for watching us here are can see. next time and remember hospitals.

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. everybody. knows. another day in the diplomatic what i see from donald trump now he says that historic summit with north korea might be back on after all despite pulling out shortly after pyongyang braised its nuclear site to the ground token of which. and now everything is a. massive cloud of dust was there to witness how north korea is keeping its end of the bargain with the us in other news this friday evening israel supreme court upholds the use of lethal military force against palestinians during this month's deadly clashes along the gaza border.