u.s. legal imperialism that brussels needs to make sure that washington respects said especially when it comes to the threat of terrorism sanctions isn't that few legal too late to be asking for it now. tariff is a different story kerry is named to deputy g o and the procedure the beauty of it was an organization built to reduce terror and you believe that we are trying to respect that procedure. you can raise tariffs and then we can go to w t o and sue can set them a procedure the cio to have the tariff he does agreeable it may be. retaliation and that's what people call trade wars what's new with trump is the style you know it's like it's the announcers like you it's t.v. show is senior reality it's a new way of doing diplomacy if i may say so no the real issue i mean it's

unpleasant it's difficult but it can be humble as a central issue that worries me. the most in recent years in the u.s. approach. to international relations in general not just to trade is that they have begun to use the mystic legislation as a way to coerce. their economic advantages mr lewis you know you've been making that point. for quite some time and i think many in your see as the only problem whereas you have specifically pointed out that the united states have been in applying its laws extra territorially for over forty years why do you think has it taken so long for the europeans to wake up to this practice because they're only starting to noticing it now when it affects them directly well forty years ago we reacted. when there was

a gas pipeline issue and reagan try to stop us and stop germany in particular but europe to build this pipeline was russian soviet union at the time saying that it was a security risk to american national security. we stopped and we took legislation which made it a crime for penalties for french or european companies to accept american legislation and to accept being under american law and i think there was a similar reaction to the hounds burton act right. so we use this so-called blocking statute in one thousand nine hundred six here again this started again this time on cuba on libya and iran. on cuba there was blocking legislation taken by mexico canada and the e.u. took a deal i think. with

a blocking statute not only that we went to devon geo and opened a complaint against the u.s. and not only that we put together a list of american companies to be the target of mirror sanctions and believe it don't move it stop and we got an exemption and we traded with cuba all these years we didn't do that for iran and libya and that's why we have this problem today but back in ninety ninety five and you know later part of it in ninety six the station was a little bit different because that act was pushed forth by the republicans president bill clinton was against it he ended up signing a waiver against that law do you think you know the political composition actually compares baghdad and the american president wasn't so sad on you know implementing his vision if i put it politely. yes and no it's more complicated than that because

the tendency to use american law is not just on sanction they go and say you know who the moment you start a business in the u.s. we're employing american citizens or use a dollar you have to comply with american law and what they do is they gather information through their intelligence. and then they drive. legal suit on companies that are targeted and sometime you end up with the company's. collapse and the voyage which happened to do a stunning front which is a key energy company and i have been signaling this in the french parliament three years ago two years ago i think that we are dealing with this friend of the us using the internal law as. i call it wreck a deployment in the old days it was called gunboat diplomacy these things like it

because each time they can use their legislation to promote their strategy or political interests all in the name of course well good cause fighting corruption fighting absolutely but i mean mr lish i think you're speaking. in a to the heart of. the difference between the e.u. and russia when it comes to the united states because the europeans still see donald trump as as the main problem whereas russians see the entire international system is flawed because it allows one country the rights and the privileges of not just a one to lateral without an afrikaans ability and what i was going to ask not just one country say me the chinese are doing the same in their own way so the problem is that we see the system unraveling the chinese are doing their ways in america in their ways of problem is europe europe must be much stronger in making the decision

it's not a question of whether the president agree or not agree with the waiver is at twenty eight can we around the table agree tough measures on these or china or the us they live on fortunately the answer to that so far is not really europe has been too weak and that's why we end up being beaten on the head sometimes by the chain. some time with the american and that's got to stop as a wise we're going to lose european voters psychology also comes into play here and to some extent it was easier to accept that kind of system when it was represented by the charming smile of barak obama as opposed to you know being represented by the obvious rudeness of donald trump you're right you're right and what i have studied in shown is that this is not does not date from from trump is sort of more extreme and spectacular and so on but you know serve been. dozens of companies

that have been fined in europe and france in germany. mostly european companies very few chinese. no indian. very few american targeting a european competitors and doing it in a systematic fashion as soon as they don't comply and so you get punished and that has to do with. banks insurance companies car companies twenty six billion dollars were taken out of european pockets and put in u.s. treasury just in a series of of these of legal decision which show no really legal decision because at the same time zone no judgment i mean companies are not judge and. they are asked to confess going back to your idea of europe having to grow a spine this is essentially what you're calling for always is going to disappear it is very difficult to do that even on

a minor issue but what we have or rather you have at stake right now is the access the european access to the american market we're talking about hundreds of billions of dollars is that is that really the worry be a starting point to sort of pick up the bottle with the united states now because. imagine we could see access to the u.s. in the european market would you sing would have they need the european money they need it badly we are as anything it's really europe. look do you think it's realistic for the us to do as they do to us maybe i mean they may have try to use it during their lives or think it's realistic not to react and it's also not very realistic because you're having a reaction for four years if we don't read that if we don't we are going to lose the battle for the hearts and minds of the voters tell me why people would believe in europe if we can see so much if any french company or european company

asked to go to washington with lawyers a little and so on and the police can they do business can you tell me if i can do business here or there this is not acceptable on a point of view. i believe in the national sovereignty i believe that europe is it makes me stronger that's why i mean europe but if europe all going to sort of a collective collapse because this is what's happening nobody is making decisions this moment we are weak on many fronts and women. by the way. also for chinese companies or russian companies together if i had this kind of behavior by china and i have or by russia we need to react the same way that my discourse is not specific to me and to us it's and t's a weakness of europe but i think it's not only the european union that is suffering from kind of treatment by the united states i think there are lots of grievances in

russia there are also grievances in china and as you mentioned before europe was able to put forth a blocking law it also did that in concert with other countries for example ninety five there was also the u.k. mexico canada that passed similar legislation what are the chances of putting together such a call listen at this point of time not just the european unity but the european union joining forces with other countries who may be unhappy about the american practices. well. saul's i'm on you know i'm not i'm not in charge at the moment so i absolutely don't have going for i don't know what is going on in the in the corridors of the european council so i don't think we have the end of the story. clearly they have been meetings between the ministers they've been talking to the iranian they've been talking to russians i'm sure by then my

call discuss it with president putin in simple terms will we have to try and find a way and means to at least keep the agreement with iran together because it is important for strategic reasons so you do actually put your bags on the european union actually having some skill in the will to resist and you could have so because otherwise look it's going to be very bad because the european union is now going through several crisis at the same time if at the same time we're not able to tell the american you know you can't do this we need to be respected then the crisis in europe we continue to escalate and you can start worrying about the future of the organization i do the only way we are going to convince the voters next year we have a european election that this whole thing deserved a reprieve and i believe it deserves predicted but the only way you're going to

convince people is it makes its relevant right you can protect borders against migrants you can put take europe against american or chinese behavior you can have a policy that you russia and ukraine don't go really so yes you need to beef up what's supposed to be a european union mr lish we have to take a very short break now but we will come back in just a few moments. because the government would like to take the money i pay taxes and bomb people defenseless people overseas and spend trillions of dollars they then come back and they tax me

again something called obamacare they tax me again to provide the health services that they say they're providing for people who can't afford health care now here's my one simple question since the tens of thousands of dollars a year we pay to offset the government's inefficient bill of the to fulfill their requirement. why can't i write that off as a charitable donation on my taxes. well you know they were kind of adopted because we were called pirates long. of being there in the small boats next to the harpoon ships and it's. the limited skills to be told fish already ninety percent of the dots i need to bone because the. constitution scoops

seventy five tons they do it several times a day with a big lead no you get an idea right. we have to understand we can not stay used to just. be with them this is the deal for you because you are. doing this because i want the future world to future generations to have and enjoy the ocean we. welcome back to worlds apart year at lucia's former french state secretary of state

for foreign trade mr liz just before the break we started talking about whether or not the european union can muster enough will power its you stand up for itself and you know we had a former obama administration official in charge of j.c. v.o.a. on the show just a short while ago and as much as he wanted to protect the iranian deal he was absolutely convinced that the europeans. i have no choice but to come along and support the united states and that and incidentally that happens to be their opinion of the majority of the russian experts who also believe that you know the europeans may sound indignant for a while but at the end of the day they will do what's required of them i mean missing something fundamental about the europeans and their ability to stand up for themselves for their rights for their interests i don't know many things have changed since ninety ninety six even the ownership of many of the european companies you're talking about globalization and so you have all kinds of interests

in the shell of the american interests and so on which make it more difficult for governments to a private company to do with the do when you have a union situated twenty eight countries it's much harder to make decisions zero here is asian that this is a major political problem not it is not just a question of the strategic consequences on the ground it's not only the impact on the companies it is the impact on the suffering what is the point saying that i am an independent country or an independent european union if i have to submit to what mr pompeo says the hardest sanction in history decided by him if if we don't give a collective sanctions on sudan or whatever or ukraine because of the

behavior of russia ukraine and its collective and there isn't a political agreement that this is the right parties that's one thing. but if ses will long good agreement then we should be able to say look we don't agree taking a back to the issue of terrorists when trump extended this latest exemption and we're speaking just on the eve of him deciding whether or not tariffs are going to be applied to the european companies once this latest exemption was granted the european commission issued a whole statement that they will not negotiate under threat but just this week the news came that the german finance minister is going to meet with the european commission trade representative and the americans to discuss this tariff specifically and what i want to ask you is whether you believe in principle it's a good idea for the europeans to ask for individual concessions rather than trying to push against what you or i think quite rightly termed the us legal imperialism

in other words should they be asking for a privilege or should they be asking for rules that are commonly applied to everybody no no it's not mix issues what you just talked about is terrorist trade and. we are. different there are three different countries the issue is is more fundamentally was a respectful national sovereignty or not and it's the turning point if we miss a point and to see rain in a month capable to show we must be respected then i think it would be a very deadly who for the future of the u.s. but mr bush when you say i agree with you that terrorising individual but at the same time for example the other day c.n.n. wrote an article suggesting that the way china can deal with its trade deficit trade is balance for the united states is by reorienting its imports from the

european union to let's say the united states still buying airbus and by boeing and that's why it's individual but it's also relevant to your interests in a pretty direct way you mentioned your grievances against china before. and i think that megan i only want to live in cities and if i were a russian i would be much i was a little more worried when my question is more about whether this issue should be decided on a quid pro quo basis or indeed whether there is a common valley in trying to come up with some common approach because you know it could be argued that the your european union has never said a word when russia or even china was treated unfairly by the united states. if the european union now experiences a problem should when anyone really concerned street did you say unfairly is

because of political problems. and i and i and i want to help resolve this political problem but i need just on the russian side as the west nothing is happening and we have this sort of at the center of every six months and it's a lose lose situation i've told mr level of this morning you know how do we get out of the box nobody wants to isolate russia certainly not france so let's get out of it show us how we get out of this ukrainian mess i thought i didn't know it so we who have to show you how i don't know i didn't go into ukraine you did so we're going to we're going to fix it ok so there's no wall and it only russia that has to fix it for everybody involved i quite agree everybody has to make gestures but people are waiting because the sanction on the. on the part of washington is the level of those that mr wood didn't know that and to just get here and out of here is what kind of gesture tell tell me what kind of gesture is progression make of

the just a very simple we need to see move movements of troops out of these. minsk. there is not interim they don't even mentioning i mean they they say if you don't want to get into this at this point there is a series of steps to be taken by all sides. i think it's very important for two shows a way and then to process stuff and understand if the treatment the unfair treatment you're talking about is linked to a political situation which i find quite different from zero rest of the issue of trade what i meant by unfair treatment is not only sanctions related to the ukrainian case for example i'm sure you know that one of our biggest companies who saw it was just sanctioned by the americans and nobody actually knows what for i mean it's supposedly related to their latched interference in the elections but those reasons have never been really laid out i think this accumulation on

sanctions on russia is not exactly a good idea frankly i think the hysteria thing on going back to the cold war is not a good idea and we should deescalate all this but whether there was an interference in the u.s. election i think if you look at the f.b.i. report it's very easy if you look at their very worst i think it would not really basic academic create here of you know i don't know i have read it university thesis and you really think it's a serious piece of work you know american police and judges they do their job is it a major interference in the election of course not was there an indifference most likely. the russians alone to interfere of course not so. is this a reason to escalate this into a new cold war and a whole wall of sanctions probably not. we should think this seems to me with a little bit of wisdom now i do not believe that this habit

of of getting on the people with sanctions all the time is necessarily the best way to move them except on serious issues ukraine's ace's now let me ask you because there was a change of them. both of those since the war and there was a one hundred ninety you don't do these things you don't want to see it was a rollover so. this is a i really do not want to get. i mean when france interfere is in countries like libya for example or even in syria it never for some reason things about you know doing those matters in quite the same terms but let's not get into that because i want to really didn't. know what their leader was a sovereign state did you hear me say that this was a wonderful idea now but i mean if. this thing the international community everybody will you cannot demand russia to be you know holier than the pope when

other countries behave in that and i'm not trying to sound the college ethically but i think it's a valid discussion about it in light of what roles apply it is a discussion and not saying i find western strategy. since the end of the or extreme your brilliance otherwise we would not be the situation. being the climate we have between russia and the west the worst since the end of world war two today is. stupid and tragic the european union has filed preliminary complaints but the w t l is seeking to pressure the trumpet ministration by targeting u.s. goods produced in states that don't trump into the white house you know we're talking about on holiday davidson bikes produced in response and you know whiskey from kentucky etc. it seems to be

a very specific case of mixing politics and economics you know you try to pinch economically we will try to hurt you when it hurts the most politically is that a fair game as far as europe is concerned because the europeans have long been very moralistic when russia tries to mix politics and economics would use. trump is doing what he does he's doing what he does because it's sheed into his electorate but i'm asking you do you think it's a fair game what's wrong with well i mean what's wrong when you subsidized a gas for your neighbor and expect a certain political outcome to happen there what's wrong with that but apparently you know in your crane the european union didn't like russia having both economic and political leverage the economic and political rivers have always been. into existence marxism in this country for a number of years well it wasn't me but i mean the world where we've been told by the europeans this is not there had to wait to do that and i'm just trying to that

the european you know. that the united self was built on the cutting tax tariff first remember it was a custom union frings a market with a low free circulation of people and consolidate democracy and peace so the link between openness and trade and openness of society has always been xeni lion of the western countries so you cannot you know we tend to discover that politics and economy links of course selling the traditional free trade school in the anglo-saxon country and all the. u.k. germany u.s. so that the more it's free voice happy that's was a public in the u.s. was always pro trade trump is not proof we trade and use this. in a very spectacular way. but you know and china has a point to diffuse it with signs huge ways away we have a huge deficit in france with china we need to fix it we are too complacent the

problem is there is no trade as you know in europe trade policy is federal you have a permission to do that and it's so you need to show collective power in order to do some said mr lewis don't you see the irony in that because respond this half an hour talking about you know these bare neck collect prose by donald trump of what you're actually telling me that it's ok to be your itself implying that kind of. known them when you have to protect your interests you you may take measures that on this say to protect your interests when you have a huge deficit that you accumulate with china which is in part because of unfair practices not or woods that it's also the hunger of consumption of the u.s. for cheap products but there is also in. very dedicated strategy which and

say which is not always fair to destroy production in the west or in russia and says very cheap products are unfair competition. you entitle to defend against a yes you must that's one issue but please don't confuse. well anyway mr miller should have to leave it there thank you for being with us today and i hope our viewers can keep this conversation going on our social media pages asp i mean this here again same place same time here on the wall for part.

in july twenty seventh son of a freelance journalist working with. militant shelling in syria. on his sacrifice quality has established a solid. they will recognize. you often risk their lives with the sake of the truth and through the peace you can submit to your published works in the video well written form until june the twelfth. that i did. i i i. was. so good to. know you were there to sort

of. gets exclusive access to a meeting between russia's foreign minister and the north korean leader our correspondent was the only international reporter allowed into palace. plus italy's two main euro skeptic parties to strike a last minute deal to form a coalition government avoiding the need for a new election. u.s. imposes have to tariffs on aluminum and steel imports from the e.u. and other allies despite threats of retaliation. for the latest on the stories you can head to our dot com stay with us for the financial news in the times report. the be.