hello and welcome to crossfire where all things considered i'm peter lavelle italy's recent elections again demonstrate the e.u.'s niel liberal agenda is under continued pressure even under threat where is this grand historic project going how should we understand the italian elections the german elections and brags that in totality is the current leadership of the e.u.

capable of governing effectively and in line with the wishes of the people he claims to represent. cross talking italy and the e.u. i'm joined by my guests. in london he is a foreign affairs consultant and analyst also in london we have to go on this. he is a senior lecturer in european politics at the university of surrey and in milan we cross to monaco bus on the he is a professor of political theory at the university of milan all right gentlemen cross talk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want i always appreciate that they have on this let me let me go to you first in london we have somewhat of a crisis we'll see where it goes in italy we had the majority of italians going to the polls voting for parties that were against the neo liberal agenda of the status quo and i would also extend that to the philosophy. the e.u.

and now we have a nonpolitical technical government and it looks like it's only a matter of time before there's going to be another election i mean where do you see this going because on the one hand you have the elites worried about share values assets and that's perfectly understandable i think that any anyone in power be worried about that but then you have the democratic process i mean how do you balance these two because this is where it's going to turn into potentially a crisis sometime in the fall go ahead you found this in london yeah well we're still riding the wave of populism across europe the populist parties are gaining momentum still it was thought that it had stopped a little bit or retrenched maybe with the french election which didn't mention. but we see again we need to leave now is one of the worst affected countries in terms of the economic strains was the next one to go we were expecting it. in terms of

the financial. capabilities of the country the turmoil has been going on for the last eighty days or so. with the non appointment of the new government is the kind of the last element to this saga but we do expect it to be resolved somehow it's fine for for democracy democracy doesn't have dead ends it only has solutions so. i am pretty sure that the solution will be found in italy now on the european side that's a whole different story because it is a mixture of technocrats and elected representatives and what we call euro kratz at the same time so i think that there needs to be a why there european discussion about the value. use of european integration about

the prospects of european integration and about a roadmap of how to go about it and taking into account some of the issues that have been highlighted. you're bringing up a very good point there let me go to marco and milan but you know my sense is brussels doesn't really care about what the people of the e.u. think about the strategy ahead because they don't have european union wide alexion on should we continue integration should we vote on a constitution that it's not done that way and i think that's part of the alienation of a lot of the publics in the european union theophanous brought up something they think is interesting is this a one off italy in a certain moment in political and economic and social history or is it really part of this wave that the upon us mentioned in london go ahead marco in milan. yeah i don't i don't see the european union it is real cold war tool

it's the united states what it boils when sugo us europe we're in then right now it's rare. and it's like who wants. to sort of hide what was witnessed and to hide. then you know i don't anymore so i guess it's really it was the only you only want this very much but there's no you're more there's no like the real problems that are there you know nation. and the like. twenty years you're going to be wrong and the right which is. are you know it's certainly not enough there's nothing like it you know and there is a lot of i mean. i just are changing very rapidly now and.

there's no problem we were in this you know ok i want to write you write a good ad really and london right now i mean i look at the election the italian election i mean and you know i may be wrong my impression was is that we had these populist parties on the left and the right. questioning the policies of the status quo in italy and the european project in general but they're not saying to get out of the european union but not yet now between now in the next election if there is no progress made and we could see the left and the right work together much more closely in the next election and if they do get way more than the majority then you may have membership in the e.u. on the table and it's moving in that direction because you know the economic crisis there ever since the financial crisis of two thousand and eight i mean the perception is the banks were protected and nobody else it was all the direction of

brussels and berlin go ahead in london. i think that people are generally thinking of the idea of europe in hutapea and once a many political unders are seeing a resemblance between the. e.u. outside there's a more resemblance between the collapse of the soviet union and breakup of the e.u. i think the e.u. and the soviet union. both. grindin the utopian idea. european union as a customs union yes. all europeans and all the people around the world are eager to do business but part of that we can see a huge disparity between the general populace. labor.

general workers and elites business elites and this is going breaking down to and resonates with the populistic parties because we can see that some people in our society damage already the real majority is left behind. this is the main problem is that the political elites around the european union. live in a utopia and they are out of touch with the realities of the. common people so they are representing the big businesses the markets investors songs of fall which are crucial to well being of the nation states but of the same time those very corporate and cities what is their value without the common man. this philosophy doesn't hold the author of and i think that this is the main problem if the political elites around europe will not grass their reality.

they will find find them. those in a very nasty situation. pushing us to do. drastic things very well said except for one word you didn't use you didn't use democracy and all of that and i think that is the problem here we have on this here you know people talk oh no they don't i mean you know i mean there we go we'll go back to get back to you i'll get back to you have on this let me go to you in london. there's a lot of talk about these populist movement in the rise of the right but it's not the rise of the right it's the failure i hope of the status quo and i think you know that leads to the end mean the media can't you know you can't trust these people to rule then you can't trust democracy you can't have it both ways go ahead the advantage in london this is probably one of the few times i'll agree with you peter is ok it is the it is the failure of of the mainstream parties to

to to capitalize on the demands of the people however i would disagree with the fact that elites are completely. as disjointed or in connection with the common people i don't really like the expression common people and i don't like the expression of the left behind and i can tell you why because it is really easy to fall into the trap of emotional language that populist parties are using good point i don't see populist parties doing anything different at the stage than what they have promised to do that common people that they claim to represent so in fact in this case i think it is a political agenda with high political stakes they want to go into power for their own purposes and i think that a lot of the people that they claim to represent are falling into the trap of

becoming victims of this emotional language i think we need to sit down and rash. generally think about what the problems with the european integration program are what the actual needs of the people are both in economic and social terms and see and find ways of being at least progressive in our ideas and i think in the way that we handle things on the ground ok peter finally got up marco and before we go to the break here i mean when you look at the leading parties in the in the last election in italy do you think that they are capable of ruling even though they've been pushed aside for the time being do you think they have the the wisdom in to be able to move forward and do capitalize on their victory go ahead in milan. yes you know i think they do actually want to see is the political class that they have used though that they're really like below this kind of being

from three mile line most of them are sound and correct way so it's really some. pretty bizarre states these people are not exactly very cooperative but that's the story these are all those. who are who are the police groups what do they do usually you know one definition of political science is the people or artists the movements that try to exploit the fierce. market let me not i'm going to jump in here gentlemen i have to go to a hard break and after that heart break we'll continue our discussion on italy and the state with art.

you never know what's around the corner you never know what's in the pub even can take the sat excitement it's that knowledge that's where the adrenalin rush comes from. and good news and moves by definition and the extremes to all forms of. violence is a part and it's almost a schizophrenia. when you can do all these things and behave badly. important the public hospital for the long post but more so for the last. one this man infirmed. more or less from the start. i would rather well. really beautiful. meaning in these music based if you die on the evolves it's constantly evolving and.

dropping bombs brings police to the chicken hawks forcing you to fight the battles that. the new socks try to tell you that will be gossip and probably myself the day. off the bad guys and tell me you are not cool enough to buy your product. all the hawks that we along the border will watch. welcome back across the uk where all things are considered you were discussing italy and the e.u. .

ok let me go back to marco and milan you are into the break you are talking about the nature of populist and populist movements right now go ahead. yes there are certain fears that the people have you know they feel they are letting. on and they do you know that you called it neo liberalism. makes me laugh you know this is this you are it's like oh it's. we're in france in france and italy is about fifty seven percent i want to i really wonder what kind of stupid well. it's no one else that neo's this. but or it's neo so it was a big business kind of proff as a you know it's a clue shoot big business big clearly there is a lot of big government and now it's you were before you were

a guest was to go on u.s.s.r. and i would compare europe to the holy roman to. in the seventy's hundreds that have no effect whatsoever in european politics and it has no errors since these are all the more roman are not even and are and so it's clearly it's not your units not well it's your view ninety it's that you took it but most of the people most of all in new york just because believe it it's certainly not that in their lives well i mean what was done hang on hang on here do you know it to be fair here there are a number of cases where the european union is genuinely popular in the european union and this is part of the divide among member states here and then let me go back to. that and london here and again on the go if we use the italian election is a microcosm i mean the issues that were on the table immigration lack of growth the

youth unemployment. you know do they have the tools because the the the populous parties will say that their hands are tied because it's brussels and. berlin pushing austerity you know is that just passing the buck because these are real issues with real voters and it seems to be all across the european union and i to talk gentlemen a little bit about brags that before we finish up here go ahead raylan in london. i think that we're missing the point of what was in two thousand and fourteen by the harper's magazine was the. one of the process from the london school of economics professor jonah. this is a very it was titled how germany are conquered europe i agree with the statement obviously when it comes to immigration. deficit in

a country so and so for first of all we know the this is a problem immigration is a huge problem but this is not the problem of the of the european union or european states in the first place this is a problem which was caused by the administration of. mr bush when he started his war on terror in two thousand and two. so. the people who are to be blamed for that immigration must immigration for them from the middle east are americans not americans about their graham and i nearly you know how do you have to be fair but not hang on we've got to be fair here i mean angela merkel said open the doors let a million people in it wasn't the u.s. president that said that ok i mean i get the gist of your point ok if you bomb people they can believe ok and they want to go to a richer place ergo don't bomb them and maybe invest in their countries so they

don't want to leave ok so i mean let's let's keep it balance there they have honest let me go to you because. and you know dealing with these issues dealing immigration that you know they just focus on that one i mean this issue's been around for a while it's getting more intensified but it's been there and i you know i my knowledge of italy in the in the issue of immigration i mean for some communities it's dire it's dire people just walking off the beach i mean when you and all of us on this program when we go to a foreign country we get an airplane we go through life it take it we go through metal detectors we have our passports checked we were checked and now you have people just coming onto the beach and walking in i mean that is something that of my live in the telling community i would be periods about i mean it's the least of all the security issue go ahead the of us in london yeah i mean this has been accentuated by the refugee crisis so we need to be a little bit careful about the immigration side and the refugee side. the same the

same happens in greece but let me tell you something peter the majority of the people who voted for the populist parties have not even come across a single immigrant in their communities so i mean sometimes it's like bragg's it the areas that vote at bragg's it in the u.k. have the least problem of immigration there are largely white british areas so the leg. narrative there is very interesting it's trying to break through some of those regional issues into into more national debates and i think here we are in the same situation as we were in greece a couple of years ago and we had the same discussion at that particular moment. actually all those populist parties they talk about immigration but from being responsible of two people's desires to being responsible in how they handle immigration that's a whole huge divide and they rely on europe to actually provide that common

framework to provide the resources and they rely on other richer countries to take on the bulk of the migrants because. that's how they will they think they will get rid of the problem so it's a matter of blame shifting they shift the blame around they they they pass the baton they they they throw the ball game in other countries courts so that's why i say that in the fact that there is a need to be some sort of central agreement that respects the kind of. interests is that each of those countries has ok well as respects the kind of problems that are there you have it now ok marco let me go to marco and i want to stay with the issue of immigration i mean if you look at what donald rumsfeld called the new europe and old europe ok i mean i lived in poland for ten years ok the poles the czechs and slovaks the hungary and they don't want these people they say we didn't create this problem why should they come here i mean there's no unity

within the european union so kind of he said do you want to have a discussion about it well i mean a large considerable number of countries within the european union already think that discussions over the answer is no ok and so we don't go even in poland we don't have this caution is only scaremongering resonating with the people who as my previous caller said the never thing in their lives even in poland . but it's the light at the same time to all of you let it all go to marco their. respective if you've seen one or not you've seen the effects that it had on other countries and i think that's the demonstration effect that people are absorbing and i think that's kind of a middle ground there ok marco in milan go ahead jump in you know i'm just going to be a great you know there are. clearly didn't. say i don't see anything wrong. you know sign of you going to three months one week

or you know the same. monologue or anywhere else you know there is this desire. not to change too much i mean if you close to two sides if you order too much so then we'll have you know i see it in the law and. you know from the old all i want they don't want to win their silence so much and you are you know so they decided something else actually they let it leak go on we're in a mess now. that in the past five years they would let anyone in and in fact more than six hundred. got in this country in five six years so unless the so it's really a problem and it's also we're there are. things that it's not super difficult

to break. but it may be a little bit more difficult. i mean it's a very normal thing but you know what. if you are there are certain things or say to. and this might go to a little bit more difficult. ok listen it was that. absolutely every society is interested in making sure that they have sculptural references that they can keep i mean it's their culture their society and rapid change can be very upsetting to people i think there is historically we've seen that here they have found us let me let me go back to let me go back to london and. then let me go to the authorities in london. another issue going back to the italian elections here is the euro i mean what is there is that the pressure on leaving the euro i mean we

already saw it with greece being greece was not allowed to the amazing pain that's going to be happening to greece and will continue. probably a very long time what is the message now in dealing with the euro we keep greece in our mind when it comes to italy go ahead be upon us and. we now have the same similar situation as to greece a couple of years ago with a referendum a recent polls do demonstrate that italians want to be inside the euro zone and use the euro which is very interesting because it contradicts their ective the kind of message that the five star movement and yet in lego. are putting forward so there is this kind of interesting dynamic of we want the whole cake. and eat it so it doesn't work that way for political parties they need to find a compromise and solution. and the problem is is definitely neo liberalism and is

definitely capitalism so perhaps the the answer is not to to to destroy everything that we've built so far but try to create a new paradigm that really tries to do to combine elements of kept a little i mean jump in here around the world we're rapidly running on a real in london when is breaks it going to happen got thirty seconds tell me i'm waiting will. break through that will never happen peter we know the breakthrough will never happen and i would call this humpty dumpty politics because this is sitting on the wall. or once the march next year will come she will fall so. we will have run makes it something in between remaining you know going away but. we're not in time everything to the wall that to resume is sitting on i wish they would move to the mexican border as all the time we have gentlemen many thanks to

my guests in london in milan and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at our d.c. you next time and remember across talk rules. well you know the fires they were kind of adopted because we were called pirates for so long. i mean they're in the small ball of sticks in a hard pull in shifts and it's. not something to. eliminate self to be told fish already ninety percent of the dot and wall in the collar and. concept fifteen scoops seventy five tons and they do it several times a day with the big fleets now you get an idea why ocean.

we have to understand we can not stay still and just. be witness of the deal going on because. i'm doing this because i want the future world to future generations to have out and enjoy the ocean how we have.

four men are sitting in a car when the phipps gets shot in the head. all for different. what happened one of them is on the death row there's no way he could have done it there's no possible way because the list did not shoot around a corner. how do. you. not believe it you believe nothing was was.

the historic cellmates between the u.s. north korea is given the green light by. the leaders will meet so on june the twelfth this fine donald trump previously saying the talks were all. will be off it tells us the north korean leader plays host to russia's foreign minister with art see this seoul international news channel given access inside kim jong un's polypus . if only someone told me where exactly we are right now this is how suddenly you get treated to cranberry juice at camp john the rooms residents hello i can barely remember being given such access at other locations around the world i'm absolutely shocked.