those washington these guys are really getting nice to do all three rules. hello and welcome to crossfire where all things considered i'm peter lavelle italy's recent elections again demonstrate the e.u.'s niel liberal agenda is under continued pressure even under threat where is this grand historic project going how should we understand the italian elections the german elections and brags that in totality is the current leadership of the e.u. capable of governing effectively and in line with the wishes of the people it claims to represent.

cross talking italy and the e.u. i'm joined by my guests. in london he is a foreign affairs consultant and analyst also in london we have to go find this exit he is a senior lecturer in european politics at the university of surrey and in milan we cross to monaco bus on the he is a professor of political theory at the university of milan all right gentlemen cross talk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want i always appreciate that they have on this let me let me go to you first in london we have somewhat of a crisis we'll see where it goes in italy we had the majority of italians going to the polls voting for parties that were against the neo liberal agenda of the status quo and i would also extend that to the philosophy of the e.u. and now we have a nonpolitical technical government and it looks like it's only a matter. of time before there's going to be another election i mean where do you

see this going because on the one hand you have the elites worried about share values assets and that's perfectly understandable and i think that any anyone in power be worried about that but then you have the democratic process i mean how do you balance these two because this is where it's going to turn into potentially a crisis sometime in the fall go ahead you found this in london yeah well we're still riding the wave of populism across europe the populist parties are gaining momentum still it was thought that it had stopped a little bit or retrenched maybe with the french election which didn't mention. but we see again we need to leave now is one of the worst affected countries in terms of the economic strains was the next one to go we were expecting it. in terms of the financial. capabilities of the country the turmoil has

been going on for the last eighty days or so. with the non appointment of the new government is the kind of the last element to this saga but we do expect it to be resolved somehow it's fine for for democracy democracy doesn't have dead ends it only has solutions so. i am pretty sure that the solution will be found in italy now on the european side that's a whole different story because it is a mixture of technocrats and elected representatives and what we call euro kratz at the same time so i think that there needs to be a wider european discussion about the values of european integration about the prospects of european integration and about a road map. how to go about it and taking into account some of the issues that have

been. going as far as you're bringing up a very good point there let me go to marco and milan but you know my sense is brussels doesn't really care about what the people of the e.u. think about the strategy ahead because they don't have european union wide election on should we continue integration should we vote on a constitution that it's not done that way and i think that's part of the alienation of a lot of the publics in the european union theophanous brought up something that i think is interesting is this a one off italy in a certain moment in political and economic and social history or is it really part of this wave that the upon us mentioned in london go ahead marco in milan. yeah i don't. see the european union it is real cold war tool it's not the united states what one voice when single as you are now we're and then right

now it's rare not that many. and it's a lot of who want. to sort of hide. and witness and to hide. then you know that you know i don't anymore so i guess it's really it was the only you only want this very much but there is no europe you know this more there is no like the real problems that are there you know nation in and like rupert twenty years you're going to be wrong and the right which is. are you know it's certainly not enough there is nothing like a robust economic growth and there is a lot of i mean. i just are changing very rapidly now and there's no problem we were in this you know ok. all right let me go to add really

and london right now i mean i look at the election the italian election i mean and you may be wrong my impression was is that we had these populist parties on the left and the right. questioning the policies of the status quo in italy and the european project in general but they're not saying to get out of the european union but not yet now between now in the next election if there is no progress made and we could see the left and the right work together much more closely in the next election and if they do get way more than the majority then you may have membership in the e.u. on the table and it's moving in that direction. because you know the economic crisis there ever since the financial crisis of two thousand and eight to mean the perception is the banks were protected and nobody else it was all the direction of brussels and berlin go ahead in london. i think people are

generally thinking the idea of europe in hutapea and once a many political unders are seeing a resemblance between the. e.u. i would say there's a more resemblance between the collapse of the soviet union and breakup of the e.u. i think the e.u. and the soviet union. both of grind in the utopian idea. european union as a customs union yes. all europeans and all the people around the world are eager to do business but part of that we can see a huge disparity between the general populace labor. general workers and elites businesses elites and this is going breaking down and resonates with the populistic parties because we can see that some people in our

society damage already the real majority is left behind. this is the main problem is that the political elites around the european union. live in the utopia and they are out of touch with the realities of the. common people so they are representing the big businesses the markets investors songs of fall which are crucial to well being of the nation states but of the same time those very corporate and cities what is their value without the common man. this philosophy doesn't hold the water and i think of this is the main problem if the political elites around the. grass the reality. find themselves in a very nasty situation. pushing us to do. the drastic

things very well said except for one word you didn't use you didn't use democracy and all of that and i think that is the problem here we have on this here being you know people talk oh no they don't hang on to me you know me let me go will go by i get back to you i'll get back to you about this let me go to you in london. there's a lot of talk about these populist movement in the rise of the right but it's not the rise of the right it's the failure of home the status quo and i think you know the elites do and mean the media can't you know you can't trust these people to rule then you can't trust democracy you can't have it both ways go ahead the advantage in london this is probably one of the few times i'll agree with you peter is ok it is the it is the failure of of the mainstream parties to to to capitalize on the demands of the people however i would disagree with the fact that elites are completely. this jointed or

in connection with the common people i don't really like the expression common people and i don't like the expression of the left behind and i can tell you why because it is really easy to fall into the trap of emotional language that populist parties are using good point i don't see populist parties doing anything different at the stage than what they have promised to do that common people that they they claim to represent so in fact in this case i think it is a political agenda with high political stakes they want to go into power for their own purposes and i. i think that a lot of the people that they claim to represent are falling into the trap of becoming victims of this emotional language i think we need to sit down and rationally think about what the problems with the european integration program are

what the actual needs of the people are both in economic and social terms and see and find ways of being at least progressive in our ideas and practice mattick in the way that we handle things on the ground ok peter finally got it mark owen but before we go to the break here i mean when you look at the leading parties in the in the last election in italy do you think that they are capable of ruling even though they've been pushed aside for the time being do you think they have the the wisdom in to be able to move forward and do capitalize on their victory go ahead in milan. yes you know i think they do actually what i'm seeing is the political class that they have used though they really like the littlest kind of being from three mile line most of them are down given correct way so it's really easy stuff is pretty bizarre in the states these people

are not exactly very cooperative but that's the story these are all those people who are who are the police groups what do they do usually you know one definition of political science is the people or the movements try to exploit the fears go marco let me i'm going to jump in here gentlemen i have to go to a hard break and after that heart break we'll continue our discussion on italy and the state with our. six guys or financial survival guide. when customers go buy your just a pint. then help well reducing our. that's undercutting

that what's good for food markets it's not good for the global economy. we see that more and more people even more and more political leaders understand that letting you know these migratory influx is a two year old definitely does not serve the targets of a better future in the european union. fifty years ago britain and within to come together as a sleeping pill does this is what i believe because when i go to the does this on the side of things what terrible but not on the road. across europe victims astonishing legal battles demanding at least some compensation in two ways first will the physical damage itself as well that the constant mind that the people who actually perpetrated this crime has never been

the justice and it has been a couple. for man are sitting in a car when the fifth gets shot in the head. all four different versions of what happened one of them is on the death row there's no way he could have done it there's no possible way because the us did not shoot around a corner. welcome back across the uk where all things are considered on peter lavelle to remind you we're discussing italy and the e.u. . ok let me go back to marco and milan you were referring to the break you were talking about the nature of populist and populist movements right now go ahead. yes

there are certain fears that the people have you know they feel they're left. on and they do you know that you called it media liberalism. makes you know this is this you are it's like oh it's. we're in france in france and italy is about fifty seven percent i want to i really wonder what kind of stupid well. it's no one else that neo's this. but or it's a new year so it was a big business kind of problem as a you know it's a collusion big business big clearly there is a lot of big government and now it's you were before you were a guest was to go on u.s.s.r. and i would compare europe to the holy roman to. in the seventy's hundreds that had no effect whatsoever in european politics and this

whole area used to say is either all the more roman are not even and are and so it's clearly it's not units not well it's europe you ninety it's a utopia but most of the people most of all in new york just because believe it it's certainly not that in their lives well i mean what was done hang on hang on here do you know it to be fair here there are a number of cases where the european union is genuinely popular in the european union and this is part of the divide among member states here and then let me go back to. that and london here and again on the go if we use the italian election is a microcosm i mean the issues that were on the table immigration lack of growth the youth unemployment. you know do they have the tools because the the the populous parties will say that their hands are tied because it's brussels and. berlin

pushing austerity. is that just passing the buck because these are real issues with real voters and it seems to be all across the european union and i'd like to talk gentlemen a little bit about brags that before we finish up here go ahead raylan in london. i think that we're missing the point of what was held in two thousand and fourteen by the harper's magazine was the. one of the process from the london school of economics professor john and great. part is the very it was titled how germany are conquered europe i agree with that statement obviously when it comes to immigration. deficit in the country so and so for first of all we know that this is a problem immigration is a huge problem but this is not the problem of the of the european union or european states in the first place this is

a problem which was caused by the administration of. mr bush when he started his war on terror in two thousand and two. so. the people who are to be blamed for that immigration must immigration for good from the middle east are americans americans about their graham and i nearly you know how do you have to be fair but not hang on we've got to be fair here i mean and i go merkel said open the doors let a million people in he wasn't a u.s. president that said that ok i mean i get the gist of your point ok if you bomb people they can believe ok i want to go to a richer place ergo don't bomb them and maybe invest in their countries so they don't want to leave ok so i mean that's let's keep it balance there they have honest let me go to you because. and you know dealing with these issues dealing immigration that you know there is focus on that one i mean this issue's been

around for a while it's getting more intensified but it's been there and i you know i my knowledge of italy in the in the issue of immigration i mean for some communities it's dire it's dire people just walking off the beach i mean when you and all of us on this program when we go to a foreign country we get an airplane we go through life it takes we go through metal detectors we have our passports checked we were checked and now you have people just coming onto the beach and walking in i mean that is something that is by living in the telling community i would be periods about i mean it's the least of all the security issue go ahead the of us in london yeah i mean this has been accentuated by the refugee crisis so we need to be a little bit careful about the immigration side and the refugee side the same the same happens in greece but let me tell you something peter the majority of the people who voted for the populist parties have not even come across a single immigrant in their communities so i mean sometimes it's like bragg's it

the areas that voted bragg's it in the u.k. have the least problem of immigration they're largely white british areas so the leg. narrative there is very interesting it's trying to break through some of those regional issues into into more national debates and i think here we are in the same situation as we were in greece a couple of years ago who had the same discussion at that particular moment. actually all those populist parties they talk about immigration but from being responsible of two people's desires to being responsible in how they handle immigration that's a whole huge divide and they rely on europe to actually provide that common framework to provide the resources and they rely on other richer countries to take on the bulk of the migrants because. that's how they will they think they will get rid of the problem so it's a matter of blame shifting they shift the blame around they they they pass the

baton they they they throw the ball game in other countries courts so that's why i insist on the fact that there is a need to be some sort of central agreement that respects the kind of. intercourse is that each of those countries has ok well as respects the kind of problems that are there you have it now ok marco let me go to marco and i want to stay with the issue of immigration and i mean if you look at what donald rumsfeld called the new europe and old europe ok i mean i lived in poland for ten years ok the poles the czechs and slovaks the hungary and they don't want these people they say we didn't create this problem why should they come here i mean there's no unity within the european union so he said do you want to have a discussion about it well i mean a large considerable number of countries within the european union already think that discussions over the answer is no ok and so we don't go to this question even

in poland we don't have this caution is only scaremongering resonating with the people who has. never seen in their lives even in poland. but it's the light at the same time to all of you let it all go to marco their. respective if you've seen one or not you seen the effects that it had on other countries and i think that's the demonstration effect that people are absorbing and i think that's kind of a middle ground there ok marco in milan go ahead jump in you know i'm just going to be great you know there is. clearly to. say i don't see anything wrong. you know sign of you going to three months one week or you know the same for a year and. monologue or anywhere else you know there is this desire are people not to change too much i mean if you close to two sides if

you order too much then we'll have you know i see it in the law and. you know from the old all i want they don't want to open their silence so much and you are you know so they decided something else actually they let italy go on we're in a mess now. that in the past five years they would let anyone in and in fact more than six hundred. got up this country in five six years so unless so it's really a big problem and it's also we're there are. things that it's not it's too difficult to break. but it made me a little bit more difficult. i mean it's a very normal thing. but if you were there are certain things or

not stated. and this might go to a little bit more difficult. ok listen it was. absolutely every society is interested in making sure that they have sculptural references that they can keep i mean it's their culture their society and rapid change can be very upsetting to people i think there is historically we've seen that here they have found us let me let me go back to let me go back out and. then let me go to the authorities in london. another issue going back to the italian elections here is the euro i mean what is there is that the pressure on leaving the euro i mean we already saw it with greece being greece was not allowed to the amazing pain that's going to be happening to greece and will continue. probably a very long time what is the message now in dealing with the euro we keep greece in

our mind when it comes to italy go ahead be upon us and. we now have the same similar situation as to greece a couple of years ago with a referendum a recent polls do demonstrate that italians want to be inside the euro zone and use the euro which is very interesting because it contradicts their actually the kind of message that the five star movement and yet in lego are putting forward so there is this kind of interesting dynamic of we want. the whole cake. and eat it so it doesn't work that way for political parties they need to find a compromising solution. and the problem is definitely neo liberalism and it's definitely capitalism so perhaps the the answer is not to to to destroy everything that we've built so far but try to create a new paradigm that really tries to do to combine elements of kept a little case with me let me jump in here and there will we're rapidly running out

of real in london when is breaks it going to happen you got thirty seconds tell me i'm waiting will. break through that will never happen people we know the brits will never happen and i would call this humpty dumpty politics because this is sitting on the wall. or once the march next year will come she will fall so. we will have run makes it so something in between remaining you know going your way but. right. run out of time everything to the wall the to resume is sitting on i wish they would move to the mexican border as all the time we have gentlemen many thanks to my guests in london in milan and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at our d.c. you next time and remember across talk rules.

you know. you never know what's around the corner you never know what's in the pub you going to walk into excitement it's that not knowing that's where the adrenaline in much comes from. and you can easily move by definition and the extremes will probably support. the violence is a pov and it's almost a schizophrenia gang culture where you can do all these things and behave badly. important people of course qualify that all for political skills more so for the last. undismayed and infirm for the role and good on all of us from the start.

of a broader where no five figure out really did a poll down down went up. meaning in these music at least if you don't believe holmes it's constantly evolving and. maybe you'll feel come to. settle come to believe that we shan't should get out of the function and come to some of the festivities. box let's be honest and pragmatic decision final decision on this issue. as the council watched. those washington. utilizing winds utilized the tree. of.

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because. the trumpet came summit is back on the u.s. president says he will meet the north korean leader in singapore on june twelfth despite earlier calling off the talks. your turn comes as the north korean leader plays host to russia's foreign minister with our t.v. only international channel given access to kim jong il and alex. if only someone told me where exactly we are right now this is how suddenly you get treated to cranberry juice at kim jong un's residence hello i can barely remember being given such access at other vi but the locations around the world i'm absolutely shocked. and the u.s. that blocks the u.n. security council resolution calling for an international force to protect palestinian civilians after months of deadly clashes with israeli soldiers.