sensitive issue which is the splitting of the continent some of it's there is no easy answer to your question but i would not the. position of the president of the republic. italian did not believe or leave. the election campaign you. mention form of the option what you said worn away by a theme was prominent during the public discussion. in the programme of the two parties but the programme. we know the programme. minister memory i'm sure you know the president made it very clear that he's objections to the proposed government specifically on. future with the euro zone and i want to ask. him up on an objection.

and he did not prevented the formation of the government he did not receive from the two parties. and yet the objection. since that first of respect to the congress all due respect to the economist very provocative view. in any program for action as sensitive as it is do you think such an idea should be put out for a popular vote because i'm pretty sure that there are some people within the italian electorate who thought that they have something in common the economist policy of one in which. clearly. the public opinion can see.

well the part of the group. and europe again. if there is no such a danger then why do you think mr someone who as you mentioned is a well established that condom is his serve for central bank he was a minister of industry before he is not some in a random populace from the street this man knows a thing or two about economics why do you think he was prevented from taking the post of the finance minister even having the. economic vision that he has. because . the one we're discussing would have given. the impression the head voted against you in the game and i think. in using. at the beginning in trying to get.

in the league. there are people which are respected which have. transferred to the market and to european policy position now even without mr someone that they suppose it here government had raised many concerns with its promises of tax cuts of its promises off welfare benefits it's raining in massive dad there were even some speculations that they were going to lobby for its full cancellation do you still believe it was all about mr. general economic agenda which is still. someone i'm sorry he is the leader. do you think they perhaps have been more general reluctance to see this government from prevent this government from taking the reins of power. the precedent. being. proposed. at

the election of course. concern. about his ability of the. program was a coalition. which means that they have to put together a request. to muddle. which means the very expensive. proposing. to satisfy the people. you have to do both and bulls are really expensive. thirty percent of what i've read the leaders of both of the five star movement and the leak i'm not particularly deterred by the prospect of fresh elections if those elections were held do you think the results would have been different. i think.

they may. but if you are sure. clearly. rule something needs to change because the italian public opinion is upset. but i'm not sure the majority would have the risk of venturing into. europe. i think there are also multiple ways and how you can sort of had your back on that because some could argue. voters me grow more resentful if they have to go to the polls again or you can argue that it would give them more time to sort of gather over these populism virus as if it was some kind of chicken pox i wonder how deep rooted if you believe the political mood in italy is is it more fleeting or is

it more of a permanent nature. permanent we don't know but. sure. italy is. like a perfect school. is feeding by economic problems by migration. which is together with greece paying more respect so these two issues. created deep into the public. i'm not sure. where the. italian voter are presented to alternative to the decision the election result would be. five quiet interesting that they are actually out of a cave far far more straightforward articulation of this issue do you have any concerns. and opposite result because many people thought for example that trump

could never win the white house because he's ideas. here we are. to respect something. let's move. two years ago and look like. all come to be different come to join the. movement and then we have seen that happening. in. and. the leader of the party of freedom in all and drop the strong. salvini and deny you beat. so. let's see what happens if and when there. is. now i think. all discussion goes to the

very heart of what is meant by the democratic or even the european governments i'm sure you have heard mr. germany should not be dictating in chile and i'm sure it's not as complicated or as simple as he said chest but there's still a question of how much divergence and how much autonomy it should be or any other country be allowed in economic matters when it comes to. general line how much space is there a lot of it i mean. is the value. and it's very important but you have to be very when you have. that problem that your is limited by the unless you call for leaving that whole union all together and starting the new project that's. should be given and should

be able to. is not on the table. at the. table. but what i'm saying is that. need to be clearly presented. and then but never do. come to. well good to know about how mr munder we have to take. on the. to be honest with you and to be perfectly straightforward to your i think there is a sense that maybe it's biased at least in this country. certain ideas are not particularly up for discussion in the european union on certain issues so it is praised much more than an exchange of controversial ideas do you think. on the. effect of democracy in other countries but that's. that's not the issue you

are now asking me about and if you say that either the. them across the country i have to say that i'm not you don't suggesting any of that i'm asking you specifically about the limits of democracy and there are certain people who have argued that you know on certain i.d.'s the decision to join the european union has been made and that's over you should not be rediscussed saying that in fact that you can bet it would then be here trying to because there is no procedure for leaving you. you know and you know what i mean. our allies the way as in many other countries we have been watching at the pain that is creating. and so this is one of the told to tell you and french and dutch and german and then we can see the east and when they would. read that to

see what they said this is the third time the roof it's nice that italians when they voted two months ago the we have not lost that's christian mr magritte let us take a very short break now we will be back in just a few seconds they chant. well you know they are they kind of adopted because we're called pirate. been there in the small ball it makes it hard to watch it and if. not. then also big talk already ninety percent of the dart gun and ball because there.

are fifteen schools. seventy five times they do it several times a day with a big fleet oh you get an idea. we have to understand we can all stay still and just. be with me this will be business deal for you or. i'm doing this because i want the future world to future generations to have out and enjoy the ocean we have. so.

much. oh. it's. welcome back to worlds apart pretty green director of the italian institute for international political studies mr madre about a year ago you were speaking at one conference on the middle east and north africa and you suggested that europe. has gotten a bit carried away with its fascination. with transformation it got used to seeing itself as this positive actor for changing the world. i wonder if you would

go as far as to say that this fascination. transformation has come to bite here because some of the problems to be senior related to migration i think could be traced directly to this idea of being a positive actor and striving for democracy in the middle is. promoted by europe. it was. certainly in chile in libya play a role i mean there were different positions that libya. taken but not. in. the leading role. of gadhafi. and great britain obama leading from behind the school in the government but. i'm not signing responsibility but i think you would know that arnold but i'm

saying that. here then we have been did it affect you i mean of course we can. ninety percent of the. comes from libya. was that important trade partner. which is important as you know you can buy all you. need. to and. for migration. so off course we are affected and we plead your right and relevant role. in trying to find a solution which is not there yet. now one perplexing thing to me as somebody reported from libya both before they got office matter and after that it was. the fact that you know he was as mercurial as he was he was actually open to. change if

only for appearance sake and i think he was also open to making his relationship with the west particularly european union of it only a little bit better why do you think that slow transformation. wasn't preferred. faster information. regime change. and you could discuss. why you took the lead and. i'm not seeing that that gadhafi. had to be what he was a dictator. we have been used to leave along the many other countries so your question was right. well

it's convenient position from my point of view because you mentioned before that italy is quite resentful about having to deal with the migration crisis yeah you kind of outsourced responsibility for that crisis because i mean your interests were at stake there. italy have calculated the risks on its own. brand. that's not my personal opinion but do you remember the situation with the government with believe your cries erupted was the final stage of it was accused of the possible crime it was in the video weak position and that these were in the sea of your cries is the libyan crisis erupted so it was a very again a very delicate moment country and probably we did what we could do to react to somebody. as far as you know even know if tried to sort of

hold back a little bit or was it the proposal i'm sure you. sure. now if he mentioned them that talk about their reference earlier that in two thousand and sixteen the word transformation has been substituted by the words that belie station in the new global strategy for europe which i as a russian find rather ronit because the worst ability in this country is very often i would even say excessively often what destin believe even mean in the european context now. because the situation is getting worse and worse and worse and worse to the american decision. and.

come through and it's clear that europe doesn't all that great leverage in. russia longer than the average american. the regional. and. now speaking about this change in terminology substituting transformation of forest. it is all the more striking. to hear that in russia because over the last couple of months the kremlin started stressing change much more there is a discussion about revamping the quality of the russian government's fighting corruption possibly relaxing immigration rules. tracked international talent investing in human capital all those things that we usually associate with the euro and yet all of a sudden russia starts talking about it when europe no longer discusses it at least publicly do you think do you take it seriously do you think russia actually wants

to do that or is that just rhetoric on the part of. the. migration. i remember the. economy was. a few years ago. even if. every time a comedy gets better. economy is not. worth of europe but you asked me isn't that strange because the. people of. europe. i'm not surprised these are the words. that. in china for the next. china investing in the middle class. environment and he actually did.

this just at the beginning. and other become to lead china now personally warrant about the danger of a possible rupture between europe on the russian sanctions which according to you could resolve the isolation of. the european union and i know that danger primarily with this new. leaders like mr salvini what i can't understand is why it is not. meant to you know facilitate russia's efforts to become better. including by perhaps easing or lifting of sanctions. strong. relations between europe and. require.

russia and my comment that you are mentioning. the position. there you have government and i will saying was that. risky for a newly established party. government going to use asking for money asking for money to support all the docs and basic income and at the same time diverged with a utopian view which is to go on with sanctions. until we have pressure from the states. and so we would be my point was if we have to go to brussels. and get something for the program basic income and.

how can we at the same time at the same table and say we go on our way on position with russia the sanctions for. the ukrainian crisis as i'm sure you would agree with me it was a very specific. time and i think if we are on this then fair i think we have to recognize that russia's actions in your cranium may not like them but they were dictated by russia very active perception of threat by nato i think from the kremlin point of view that threat has now been diminished there is no near prospect of either. either in crimea or in the a crane what's the point how long do you think it's advisable to keep those sanctions that keep hurting you that keep hurting us for something that cannot be reversed and i think could not be repeated on in discussing. prizes and the european perception and the russian perception. you know randi it took almost four

years. for the next three days but let me let me be very very quick and bomb this. many european countries. come to believe that we should get out of sanction and come to something that ok but let's be honest and pragmatic the decision final decision on this issue. has to come from washington. clothes washing is utilizing. here i understand i mean. mary trampin in a way because it's interesting to me how europe likes to portray itself as this principle values based and to hear what you tell me is it simply quid pro quo is

the same way the trial perceives not. exactly. what i'm saying and i told you i could be honest is that the rule of america. on issues like this. they're having trump in mind. and we don't. think that there is that currently the. actions of russian. i mean i am surprised that you say that men should submit to a black male that's what i'm surprised. this is what. the american administration has not said yet to you. on iran or if you do not.

tell them and have your read they may by mr frum pay or you know the american ambassador to germany i think they expressed it quite specifically but what puzzles me and this is the last question i guess because we're running out of time is when the sanctions against russia were passed there was a recognition that it needed to be done because a certain message had to be. well to the detriment of the european companies now you're telling me that when it comes to trying simply because you have huge trade with them. all principles have to be on the line well i didn't say that i sent sounds you would impose on values that we utopian to see who have not inspected by russia that was if you have single you asked me where the assumption can be waived now would that something has changed not much but something and i'm seeing the new seeing now is that we have someone else at the white house that who utilize is a strong the bot again and you know won't he utilize those tools regardless of what

you do i mean you kept your word on and he walked out on all because if. you look at numbers. u.s. trade with europe. billion with russia trade exposed i want to export to russia eighty i want to export to iran utopian six so when a couple negotiates or boots on the table to europe. do you want to work with iran with russia or would to say will do you seen america european decent and european put it would say they win this week they will try to find an ice and form but that's the substance your program is famous to be a very honest program so i'm giving you your honest box the beginning go to krises was on values which for european perception we have not formal and respected by you

by russia and talking about ukraine so i really appreciate your straightforwardness and also your patient with me thank you very much for your time and i encourage our viewers to keep this conversation going in our social media pages as for me here again same place same time here and all the parts. are. fifty years ago britain and we've been to a concert going on as a sleeping pill and just this is what i mean because the truth just said to the side effects were terrible but not on the road as shown in dutch one for boardwalk

movie here not the war then boom boom up across europe victims are starting legal battles demanding at least some compensation. in two ways first will the physical damage itself as well that the concert mind that the people who actually perpetrated this crime has never been able to justice and there's been a couple of. nights . like this. oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh love. that it's yours.

the week's biggest stories this hour when the leader of north korea played host to russia's foreign minister this week r.t. was the only international to accompany that delegation. policy. if only someone told me where exactly we are right now this is how suddenly you get treated to. kim residence hello i can barely remember being given such. a location is around the world i'm absolutely sure. someone with the north korean leader is. the american president received what he called a very nice letter from kim jong. il. to you.