part of welcome to worlds apart just a few years ago they hear of europe filling and then the length about the united states and reopening for business with russia seems like crazy talk in some corners it's still nice but if donald trump continues to spread to europe with tariffs and secondary sanctions can bloody push and seize the moment while to discuss that i'm now i'm joined by one can choose the former chancellor of australia and former president of the european council chancellor it's a great honor talking to thank you very much for your time and now you've heard my introduction and as far fashed as it may be i feel like there is that. a bit of

a competition for europe's hearts. you have any american administration treating europe with less subtlety in them europe is used to now you have russia which is quite plainly asks me in that how do you see me here and will react so that. those who are on the american side don't see that really a competition for hearts this is more. to. fight to leave because they believe they have you already but this is maybe a little bit maybe a little bit wrong the. wrong side didn't intend to be faulted to because i think we should also put taked always interests and we are a good partner economically trade we we speak to international law and due to national norms but it would was close interesting good here to primakov readings to to listen. away in the sure india in

a disciplined just because i'm used to go she said after a visit to the recreated impale from norm said this is truth by the way this made us read all of us that it was really a win win situation and sticking to the norms and respecting the international this is a precondition to go to see now from some parts of the american diffuse ration pvc international norms imo to speak to this is a pity now there was an interesting exchange last week of the same thing to spark a kind of make foreign when the french president the mammy omicron was kind of complaining about the diminished u.s. interest in european security to which president putin responded by saying that don't tortilla russia can provide that security for europe and maybe take that as a joke as a kind of chutzpah but i think mr putin has actually meant to do you think there is still any chance of europe recognizing russia not only as

a major security threat by as a major security partner good russia is a major builder partner for peace and security in those other budgets in the old almost the always who i think you're russia if you want to live p.c. in the middle east and you need russia. to speak to a partner in the constructive part of the world pms see russia that way because we have a problem with ukraine specially with these some parts of ukraine that the creamy ok's this is this is a burning issue and i think it's we stroll through these problems gradually and step by step we could really come back to do over no one european house i know that you've used the bands in ukraine as these turning point in as a relationship between russia and. the european union and you referred to it as a major challenge to europe species and security is what our sins and be. helsinki

final act was signed in one thousand seventy five and i think we in russia can feel how acutely the europeans might have. fouled being violated by what happened in ukraine but i think you're in europe also need to recognize that russia acted the way that has acted in ukraine because of its own very very deep sense of insecurity europeans may feel very safe under nato security umbrella we feel the opposite i wonder how do you think that that security that allows. could be addressed now that it has already allowed to an open conflict with the full o. think some listeners. in one listener in the margins if we really want to leave it to survive in my to pull the world is the idea of regime change from outside everybody's responsible for this were the defeat and the russian people.

involved for the leaders of the ukraine in the electorate should do the same in the routine is that your ancestry i'm not asking you about you know stripping ukrainians of their sovereign rights we are talking about specifically. the extension of nato military infrastructure towards russian borders because i don't think russians if you're really i mean at least if you talk to mr putin he quite plainly said that's what the result of russia was objecting to was not. european and ukrainian integration you know economic cooperation with russia was really troubled by is the prospect of nato and its borders on the stand could be to do since you did russia is fishy. when the didn't need to move into did needle russian ideas really emerge the words if it understanding the kills are much closer cooperation the. not really where this is

in my opinion one of the big mistakes on both sides especially on the major side or this is the big disappointment on the other hand i think you should not forget to add to the ukrainian thing the opening problem started with the e.u. association agreement i would. exclude that we underestimated ter some sensitivities on the russian side but it's not true that all of the european in their way was not seen is as a problem. and i think this was not this is harry because we are extremely interested in those when economic and political operation with russia and i think this is still on the table to this soon as we could see this burning problems especially in the dome bus then the sanctions should be relieved and then told to see the ways will and this will should be accompanied by in bed by and russian. agreement on secret emitters is spatially in the arms reduction and then of course

or their way is open for a better understanding of this a from by default of it can i come back to the idea of security you pointed out into one of your articles that arms purchases worldwide have increased by almost fifty percent in recent years the united states china russia have been all pouring money into their military is trained here and be catching out there europe was it europe was the only region where the arms expenditures went down during the thirteen to fifteen years i have the impression it would be better not only tools stick to the two person target defames military expenditures would be much better to broaden the shule i don't speak about numbers but to include full to see security arrangements as such development aids prevention of my friend fills all of these. things which are quite complicated and

quite expensive but aiding to our own security in this brawl to bring it in there in a wider arrangement with our partners so that say ukraine and georgia. were to dispel some part of the of the military in the area it would be a quite depressive step forward to increase our secret also for russia you mentioned the two percent to be a she suggests to me that they are still think about the security their fear of when then to framework of nato but there is also a discussion area in europe about building its own security system and over the last couple of years a lot of conventions have been upturned for example i'm pretty sure that the europeans couldn't have imagined that the united states would be threatening them in such areas and syria mourning this way with tyrants and sanctions as we were as you think about building the european security system shouldn't be planned with the

idea of countering all possible security threats and by that i mean do you think and the american threat could ever be. contemplated in europe there's no direct threat to for instance have in mind i think one with one we go to those. in the middle for me one is very serious a german newspaper thing it was a front for document its head on the older arctic a based on very objective research done there are disparities to children where the germ in the people we are says we sometimes see this as well as by the representative study where where is now the real threat and this was the first question was is europe in the americas drifting apart sipping tea person civil seventy percent agreed only nine percent refuels said no same division increased attention. between europe and america chancellor here for each of the poll in the

german paper and. i don't find any particular surprising our heard a lot of european suggest that the administration is already actively undermining european interest by for example walking out of the basic theory which present a security threat by raising the specter of another war plus it comes with the fragile secondary sanctions which of these two do you think is more dangerous or more threatening to european interests at this point of deduced really dangers this is threatening our economic and political interests that think we should stand up against. me and see because it's up to the institutional bull just to do the running game in these notes i literally lose my delivery agreement based on this here on the united nations security council resolution binding was really. twenty two thirty one and so this is. to withdraw from the z.

cream it is a violation of international chancellor with all due respect how do you exact question and up to that because your trade with the united states is i think in the range of six hundred billion dollars are you ready to put that on the line in order to defend your principles you could bring good issue to do night edition the security council if you can challenge these sanctions if it did and do you see any mr trump will pay attention to what the u.n. security council says or what the hell are you generally spending this is not so easy as what i don't think you meant was also binding about. this you see fuel to save not only europe or those other parts of the world standing up against these extra territorial sanctions against international law i think it is an impact don't forget the internal discussion in america and america is no trump. and we should stand up and defend our true. she's all about what i think trump is

challenging is he's challenging the very bad export oriented model that be your opinion is based on them that idea that the european union is exploiting the united states for the lack of a better word in pretty good trying but was there even before that do you think that this is something that will go away with trump or do you think it's more lasting as you first of all i think there is illegitimate interest. as you explored were to reduce unfair imports were to reduce into fighting against. the state subsidies which arnold was justified to do it for sure this is the normal way therefore we have an international norm versus the ability all the you can. bring good this issue will lead to divorce so the causey good to the mediation it will be ruled by the way america won the recently the boeing against the walls it

is won by the americans indeed the same could be on the rupee european side to the city in piles norms if you should not thirty five we should not leave these in piles of norms because we are living with it in a very good way now if the trumpet ministration indeed perceives we have both a secondary sanctions and the tariffs do you think the european union will be able to maintain both the american restrictions and the restrictions that were earlier introduced against russia or didn't do you think at all those two issues are connected i don't think these are confused over make these are contradictory could be different issues lead to trade. issues with europe this is one economic issue the iranian issue this is a political issue and the sanctions against russia is also a political issue connected to but it will be to use the american situations. as they have real problems to go. as the little bits on the stuff that they have

real problems to find the right priorities to again i think what does need to be fayne the international system will some norms and this is something will combines us and you're sure china and europe will chancellery have to take a very short break now but we will be back in just a few moments they chant. what politicians do something to. put themselves on the line. to get accepted or rejected. so when you want to be president. or somehow want to listen. to the right to be press this is what the before three in the morning can't be good . i'm interested always in the waters of my heart. this should.

join me every thursday on the all excitement show and i'll be speaking to guests of the world of politics sports business i'm show business i'll see you then. welcome back towards a part that was interesting left former chancellor of austria and former president of the european council for chancellor just before the break we were talking about this triangle of the european union the united states and russia and i think at least in moscow there is a perception perhaps a self-serving one that the current posture by the american administration may

present an opportunity for the russians team croll their relationship with europe. do you think it's an accurate perception do you think the europeans may see russia in a different light now that they have experienced the new style of the american diplomacy i think you're there is it is a window full but you only. think your russia should use these which will need to be with also some merced steps forward in the roads direction it is foreseeable and i think some speech user read some features of this and put in the during the last weeks or after his relations and think this could be interpreted in d.c. the same boy or do i think the recent visit of ferguson murky in the early in. the quiet increases the forward but of course it requires always on the russian side some flexibility to for instance the transceiver to tools to russia to ukraine bio ukraine to europe this is one the sure because understanding the sensitivities on

all that is where the clear the ukraine has some billions transit fees and losing everything is not fine for those pros i don't understand is through the give you another thing this is this is one the way where american people didn't seem to agreed maybe not finally but there is a good way forward but from what i understand even prior to that there the russian leadership said. just in that they are not actually against keeping some part of transit. through your crane i mean they they want that to be you know safe and secure and they don't don't want ukraine to use it as a leverage or as a bargaining understandable but it depends also a little bit on the quantity and this has to be negotiated and i want to seize on these issue of flexibility because if you keep referring to the ukrainian issue as you are still in our major stumbling block towards the referendum or between russia and european union. how exactly can the russia facilitate. the

pacifying of the ukrainian situation when. the ukrainian leadership quite explicitly says that the minsk agreement was reached under duress and therefore would not be implemented in this current shape or do we stick to the main inskeep agreement doesn't the dog above the europeans i mean you stick to the russians details you made a good deal crane's has will have always had to stick to it to a sociable dollar budget. as israel is russia and it's its way the outcome will be but i think. the most important thing now is. to preserve the ceasefire the second thing is we should work together to improve the economic situation especially the eastern part of ukraine. to get lugansk these were those who live in kiev so this is a very poor region it's to take to get you to create the kind of economic reconstruction for the whole region to be fantastic with him but i think there is

obvious difficulty. in doing that on the russian side because obviously the country ukrainian leadership wants to do nothing with russia i mean they are they still want their money or you know the money for the transit. they do not want to interact with russia in any political capacity or do you think they will accept any role of russia even in terms of constructing the eastern part of ukraine. you know we can know they go shoot here do you on behalf of the idea in israel is that the i think even the ukrainians must realize is the only together europeans the americans russians and the ukrainians we came deliver. and i think is illusion is better than those who don't think good politicians would realize. such a situation and hope that after the election do we do with the window of opportunity we lose will be. your growth and one of your articles recently that the

e.u. . needs to undergo fundamental reforms to strengthen its clout in global interactions and i think. interactions these require a certain speed of reaction which the e.u. seems to be lacking it also requires a degree of tactical maneuvering and i think ideological open this which has never been a strong side of the e.u. or maybe it has been to its advantage by the e.u. how it seems to be very ideological when it comes at least from the russian perspective when it comes to democracy promotion in defending its values and so on and so forth so. pretty doc sickly there seems to be. that kind of global interaction requires both a spine and a flexibility do you think europe at this point of time. is the i don't think the so do see sticking to democracy and human rights issues all of this is difficult.

international law this is not ideologically issue this is defacto this is our core does this is in our heart our jeanne think we have in mind and this is by the way the basis here for why the european union until now from two functions this is of exhibit if we are not flexible enough. to run a bunch of different difficult. members like spain and greece and crown trees it's rounds in german the deed to leeward countries to this requires a lot of flexibility this is not the question i think it is. and what we need. in foreign policy i think there is more need for speed really i think reaction i think. to say dutiful for the european union and i think the situation is improving this should be around the regime and was

mostly done and mediated do you. think you could see more of that of course. the one the one can be alone deliver peace agreement the middle east or with iran the world with the with you crane or with the north korean leader. and the intake important good players just i what i meant by ideological predisposition of the european union is their tendency to prize the democracy agenda every everything else for example in libya mania and number of european countries when they're hoping to do you good thing i think we can agree that those good intentions were not fulfilled if europe had that greater cloud and global interactions that you talked about or that you wrote about do you think that

decision would have taken do you think europe would just as eagerly sided with some of the other foreign policy initiatives. associated with the united states in syria or in iraq or in afghanistan i think the last interventions military interventions show that. people listen to. the regime change from outside they take. this created just kills war millions hundreds of thousands of people millions of refugees it kills poverty. the poor people on the ground suffer but i think this is to listen and think we should we all should you know exactly these nations listen regime change you still pose who should accept our limits who could offer good good ideas mediation and economic support to everything but i think the

ideal for regime change military into the shoes from outside this is mostly now russia sometimes the americans understand you think. the beginning is a retreat goal i'm here that is the current president obama from doing. this is gradually you see you as you do you see. of move out of. this is quite interesting to say the everywhere that chancellor. may have contracted damage on the ground. but i think the listeners afghanistan to iraq from iraq to libya you see yemen will be the next case a military intervention for good now all of this crisis we just mentioned in a way contributed to the crisis in iraq you would agree with me that it's not only syria driven it is also in part driven by the levy intervention and the opening of

sort of flood gates from from africa and i heard you say a very interesting thing here is you said that it was a mistake on the part of the old europe to make the migrant codice mandatory for everybody and i think that's a bald statement for you know a former top official of the european council how do you think it should have been handled. deferred think is if you want to keep the internal. space. open without borders without controllers moving freely from one country to the next one then you have to protect the external border much more effective than we did then we have now phone takes phone text today a little bit more than two thousand st louis' a thousand seaview servants this is not enough and nothing to do commission with a new financial proposal is exactly working along these lines but i think protecting the external border this is important but this is only

a tool to see the defense but to see the more important or equally important is the prevention of a ground floor so it's not only rich used today you have a lot of thousands of africans young people seeking a better future a better economic perspective a jobs income is said to us and we should take them but in their own countries in their own region today if you see important this is thinking about what could happen but what about those people who have already arrived at the european borders there are more than a million of them how they should they have been distributed if there are a number of countries who claim that they cannot accept down for you know it can only go in if they are here they are mostly now in the indeed even in the d.c. tuition's as are most of their way into germany to sweden and to austria and of course to us or some other countries he telling greece are still very much affected but you know this mother to recall the difficult to people to very committed to if

you look for is that we live a good luxembourg in the end except it's twenty richie's that with a private plane the foreign minister when the prime minister of police t. pers was the prisoner of the european parliament was there greeting and we're coming to refugees they have to be. a little bit informed why they should go to luxembourg today no one of these twenty refuses to listen to everyone. to it doesn't work. if you have if you really want to have a good bit of functioning system you have to improve the external border protection you have to integrate those who are already in the good will never fire and ways to put them back to you to romania bulgaria or tool to preserve this is something to this was missed in two thousand and fifteen we have to live with it in to integrate those who could get asylum and those who can not get the asylum they must be sent

to their own countries chancellery have to live in there really appreciate your time today and i encourage everyone stick in this conversation going on our social media pages and i hope to hear again same place same time here on worlds apart. this is. the church secret indeed catholic priests accused of sexually abusing children can get away with it quite literally i like to call this the do

graphic solution so what the bishop needs to do then he finds out that the priest is is a perpetrator is simply moves him to a different spot were the previous standards not the highest ranks of the catholic church help conceal the accused priests from the police and justice system to that end of that's known as the end and then i conclude that it is this is out and. it's. faced with frustration and dismay for america's allies even members of the g.o.p. donald trump is sticking to his campaign promise to recast washington's trade relations with the world the reaction has been loud in swift only on the verge of a global trade war.

the pentagon says it's impossible to know how many civilians died in last year's liberation of the syrian city of raka as last amnesty international slams the u.s. led coalition in a new report alleging possible war crimes during the battle for the city. there's fury in germany after the new u.s. ambassador is accused of lending support to far right groups in europe. maybe he needs to be a little bit more careful this isn't just do this just to. be you it's crossing thoughts with the u.s. over newly proposed to impose the trade tower of promising countermeasures for next month and calling the move by washington illegal. and u.s. senators consider a bill which would greatly expand the president's war powers.