plan of welcome to worlds apart just a few here is a good day here of europe filling and then the end about the united states and reopening for business for russia seemed like crazy talk in some corners it's still nice but it's donald trump continues to spread to europe with tariffs and secondary sanctions can lead to a push and seize the moment while to discuss that i'm now i'm joined by one can choose a former chancellor of australia and former president of the european council chancellor it's a great honor talking to thank you very much for your time and now you've heard my introduction and as far fetched as it may be i feel like there is that. a bit of a competition for europe's heart. you have any american administration treating europe with less subtlety in them europe is used to now you have russia which is

quite plainly asks me am how do you see me here and will react to that. i was told from the american side that don't see really a competition for hearts this is more you. try to leave because they believe they have you already but this is maybe a little bit to be a little bit wrong the. wrong side didn't. tend to e-file to to because i think we should those who predict always interests and we are a good partner economically and trade we we speak to international law and international norms but it was it was close interesting good here they did primakov readings police and pool away in the india in the soup and just because i'm used to go she said after world war two we created in piles norms and this is street by the way this may. thus reads all of us that it was really

a win win situation and sticking to the norms and respecting the international this is a precondition it will be seen all from some parts of the american that history shows that except b.b.c. international norms are not to speak to and this is a pity now there was an interesting exchange last week and the same kind of make for on when the french president emanuel macaron was kind of complaining about the diminished u.s. interest in european security to which president putin responded by saying that don't tortilla russia can provide that security for europe and maybe take that as a joke as a kind of chutzpah but i think mr putin has actually meant to do you think there is still any chance of europe recognizing russia not only as a major security threat by as a major security partner good russia is a major part of for peace and security in those other budgets in the onus the

always who i think the russia if you want to live p.c. in the middle east and you need russia. to speak to a partner in the constructive part of the europeans see russia that way because we have a problem with ukraine specially with these some parts of ukraine that the premier ok's this is this is a burning issue and i think this is we sold these problems gradually and step by step he could really come because to do deals with you know one european house i know that you view the vans in ukraine as these turning point in that the relationship between russia and. the european union and you referred to it as a major challenge to europe speech since security is water since the helsinki final act was signed in one thousand seventy five and i think we in russia can feel how acutely the europeans might have. fouled being violated. by what happened in your

frame but i think you in your in europe also need to recognize that russia acted the way that has acted in ukraine because of its own very very deep sense of insecurity europeans may feel very safe under nato security umbrella we feel the opposite i wonder how do you think that that security that allows. could be addressed now that it has already allowed to go and open conflict because the full o. think some listeners. in one listener in the margins if we really want to leave it to survive it in my to pull the world is controlled the idea of regime change from outside everybody's responsible for this were the defeat and the russian people involved terfel the leaders of the ukraine in the literature to this a mini european is that your. i'm not asking you about you know stripping ukrainians of their sovereign rights we are talking about specifically. the

extension of nato military infrastructure towards russian borders because i don't think russians even if you're really i mean at least if you talk to mr putin he quite plainly said that's what russell of russia was objecting to was not. european and ukrainian integration in our economic cooperation with russia was really troubled by is the prospect of nato and its borders that i understand could be to do since he did russia is visually. when the didn't need to move into did needle russian ideas really emerge the words it did understanding the kills are much closer cooperation people to believe that this is in my opinion one of the big mistakes on both sides of issues that neither side. was it a big disappointment or the other hand i think you should not forget. did to the

ukrainian thing the opening problem started with the e.u. is to see asian agreement i would. exclude that we underestimated some sensitivities on the russian side but it's not true that all of the european in every way was was not seen there is is a problem. and i think this was not this is harry because we are extremely interested those in economic and political operation with russia and i think this is still on the table too it is soon as we could see this burning problems especially in the dumbos then this ancients should be relieved and then to to see the ways will and this will should be accompanied by and by and russian us agreement on security matters especially in the arms reduction and then of course their way is open for a better understanding of this a from my to pull over can i come back to the idea of security you pointed out in

one of your articles that arms purchases worldwide have increased by almost fifty percent in recent years the united states china russia have been all pouring money into their military is trained here and be catching out there europe was it your abode is the only region where the arms expenditures went down during the plaintiff's ten years i have the impression it would be better not only tools stick to the two percent target of the famous military expenditures would be much better to broaden the shule i don't speak about numbers but to include full to see security arrangements as such development aid prevention of micro and fills all of these things which are quite complicated then quite expensive but aiding to our own security in this brawl to bring it in there in a wider arrangement with our part. live to ukraine to georgia. work to

do sell some part bill for all of the military in the area it would be a quite depressive step forward to increase our secret was a for russia you mentioned the two percent of each suggests to me that you're still thinking about the security of your of with them to framework of nato but there is also a discussion in europe about building its own security system and over the last couple of years a lot of conventions have been upturned for example i'm pretty sure that the europeans couldn't have imagined that the united states would be threatening them in such areas and syria morning this way with tears and sanctions as we were as you think about building the european security system should be planned with the idea of countering all possible security threats and by that i mean do you think and the american threat could ever be. contemplated in europe as

a direct threat to for instance have in mind i think one we when we go to those. in the middle from the one very serious german newspaper think it was a frontal document its head on the older r.t. came based on the very objective research about the sea to. the germ in the people we ourselves are some some see this as well as but they've represented the study. where is now the real threat and this is the first question was is europe in the americas drifting apart sipping tea person save the seventy percent the greet only nine percent refuels said no same division increased tensions between europe and america at chancellor you're afraid to die a poll in the german paper and. i don't find any particular surprising our heard a lot of europeans suggest that the trouble. ministration is already actively

undermining european interest by for example walking out of the j.c. ferry which present a security threat by raising the specter of another war plus it comes with the fragile secondary sanctions which of these two do you think is more dangerous or more threatening to european interests at this point of deduces really dangerous this is threatening our economic and political interests that think we should stand up against. pinsky's because you to absolutely eakins the international law that this was just to be around the green in these notes i literally lose my two lives to literally freeman based on this here on the united nations security council resolution binding resolution twenty two thirty one and the c b two withdrawal from d.c. cream it is a violation of international chancellor with all due respect how do exact quest to end up to that because your trade with the united states is i think in the range of

six hundred billion dollars are you ready to put that on the line in order to defend your principles you could bring good issue to do night edition the security council if you can challenge these sanctions if it did w t o and do you see any mr trump will pay attention to what the u.n. security council says or what the general is finding this is not so easy as well as don't think you meant was also binding about the us health care when this you see feel to see it not only europe or the other parts of the world standing up against these extra territorial sanctions against international law i think it is an imperfect and don't forget those will be internal discussions in america and america is no trump. if. we should stand up and defend our interests is all about what i think congress challenging is he's challenging this very bad export oriented model that be your opinion is based on then that idea that . the european union is exploiting the united states for the lack of

a better word in pristina trying it was their event before that do you think that this is something that will go away with trump i do think it's more lasting as a first of all i think there is illegitimate interest to raise you explored were to reduce unfair imports were to reduce into fighting against. the state subsidies which arnold was justified to do it for sure this is the normal way therefore we have an international norm this is the ability all you can. bring good this issue will be to do was so close to a good to the mediation and it will be ruled in by the way america won the recently the boeing against the airbus this was. won by the americas indeed the same could be on the rupert european side to this is the in pile of norms if you should not third if we should not leave these in piles lawns because we are living with it in

a very good way now if the trumpet ministration indeed proceeds with them both their secondary sanctions and the tariffs the things the european union will be able to maintain all the american restrictions and the restrictions that were earlier introduced against russia or didn't do anything at all those two issues that come back tears i don't think these are complete over make these so-called victory could be different issues lead to trade new issues with europe this is one economic issue the iranian issue this is a political issue in derby sanctions against russia is also a political issue they are not connected to but it will be easy to use the american situations. which is. monitoring all distinctions and they have real problems because they're a little bit understaffed and they have real problems to find the right priorities to again i think what this is needed to defend the international system will from norms. this is something good combines those who should try in the us and europe

chancellor we have to take a very short break now but we will be back in just a few moments. with this manufactured dream sentenced to public will. when the ruling closest to protect themselves. with the famous. nor middle of the room says. the real news is. next as a financial survival the state says let's learn to love let's say i'm not so i

guess. i'm greece on face of the fight well street fraud thank you for. the story that's true. that slavery. welcome back to worlds apart of this wealth and she is still a former chancellor of austria and former president of the european council for chancellor just before the break we were talking about this triangle of the european union the united states and russia and i think if least in moscow there is a perception perhaps a self-serving one that the current push by the american administration may present an opportunity for the russians team crowfoot their relationship with him. europe.

do you think it's an accurate perception do you think europeans may see russia in a different light now that they have experienced the new style of the american diplomacy i think there is it the window for good you'll need to. think your russia should use these will put you on the t.v. with steps forward in the rights direction it is foreseeable that i think some speeches or read some speeches of president putin the during the last weeks after his release. i think this could be interpreted in this in this same boy or during the recent visit. in. the quiet increases state forward but of course it requires the russian side some flexibility to for instance the transceiver the tools to rush into ukraine via ukraine to europe this is one the sure because understanding the sensitivity is that it's quite clear that ukraine

has some billions transit fees and losing everything is not fine for the president is that is. the i think this is this is one the way where american people didn't seem to agreed maybe not finally but there is a good good way forward but from what i understand even prior to that there the russian leadership suggested that they are not actually against keeping some part of transit through your crane i mean they they want that to be you know safe and secure and they don't don't want ukraine to use that as a leverage or as a bargaining understandable but it depends also a little bit on the quantity of this has to be negotiated and they are i want to seize on these issue of flexibility because if you keep referring to the ukrainian issue as you are still in our major stumbling block towards a referendum on the three russian european union. how exactly can the russia facilitate. the pacifying of the ukrainian situation when. the ukrainian

leadership quite explicitly says that the minsk agreement was reached under duress and therefore could not be implemented in this current shape why don't we stick to the mean inskeep agreement does little doggie above the europeans and i mean maybe when the u.s. thinks you know we russians details you have to go and do all the deal crane's has will have always had to stick to it there is also more doubt about this. is israel is russia and its its way of the outcome will be but i think. the most important thing now is. to preserve the ceasefire the second thing is we should work together to improve the economic situation especially the eastern part of ukraine. to get lugansk it is with those of the green on the kiev side this is a very poor region it's to take to get in to create the kind of economic reconstruction plan for the whole region to be fantastic way but i think there is obvious difficulty. in doing that on the russian side because obviously the country

ukrainian leadership wants to do nothing with russia i mean they are they still want their money or you know the money for the transit is there they do not want to interact with russia in any political capacity do you think they will accept any role off russia even in terms of fact constructing the eastern part of ukraine we cannot they go shit here in the deal on behalf of nigerian israelis sticks the i think you even the ukrainians must realize that all live together europeans the americans russians and the ukrainians we can deliver his solution and i think is solution is better than those who lucian does think good politicians would realize. such a situation and i hope that after the election do we do with the window deal we lose will be now eroding one of your articles recently that the e.u. . needs to under. fundamental reforms to strengthen its clout in global

interactions and i think global interactions these require a certain speed of reaction which the e.u. seems to be lacking it also requires a degree of tactical maneuvering and i think ideological open this which has never been a strong side of the e.u. or maybe it has been to its advantage by the e.u. how it seems to be very ideological when it comes at least from the russian perspective when it comes to democracy promotion in defending its values and so on and so forth so. predominantly there seems to be. that kind of global interaction requires both a spine and a flexibility do you think europe has at this point of time. or is the i don't think the suit to see sticking to democracy and human rights issues all of this is difficult pieces of international law is not ideologically issued this is

defacto this is our chord this is our this is in our heart our jeanne i think what we have in mind and this is by the way the basis were for why the european union until now from two functions this is our flexibility if we are not flexible enough you couldn't to run a bunch of different did difficult members like spain and greece and crown trees in france and germany and to indeed to leave countries to this requires a lot of flexibility this is not the question i think it is. and what we need is especially in foreign policy i think there is more need for speed really i think reaction i think. to say dutiful for the european union and i think the situation is improving it is fishy to be around the regime and mostly die. and mediated do you. think we could see more of

that of course. to pull up to the one the one kid alone deliver a peace agreement in middle east or with iran the world with with ukraine or with north korea. and the intake important global players just what i meant by ideological pre-disposition of the european union is their tendency to prize the democracy agenda every everything else for example in libya mania and number of european countries when they're hoping to do you good thing i think we can agree that those good intentions were not fulfilled if europe had that greater cloud than global interactions that you talked about or that you wrote about do you think that decision would have taken do you think europe would just as eagerly sided with some of the other foreign policy initiatives. associated

with the united states being in syria or in iraq or in afghanistan i think the last interventions military interventions. that those who listen to. the regime change from outside take saddam hussein take libya. this created just kills war millions hundreds of thousands of people millions of refugees it kills poverty. the poor people on the ground suffer but i think this is to listen and think we should we all should. you know exactly these nations listen changes will pose who should accept our limits who could offer good good ideas mediation and economic support to everything but i think the ideal for regime change military interventions from outside this is most. now russia sometimes the

americans understand you think. obama. the beginning is a retreat goal i'm here that is the current president obama from doing the things to. know this is gradual you see use you've seen a lot of of moves out of years this is quite interesting to say though that everywhere chancellor. may have contracted damage on the ground. but i think the listeners on afghanistan to iraq from iraq to libya you see yemen will be the next case a military intervention for good now all of this crisis we just mentioned in a way contributed to the crisis in iraq you would agree with me that it's not only syria driven it is also in part driven by intervention and the opening of sort of flood gates from from africa and i heard you say

a very interesting thing here is you said that it was a mistake on the part of the old europe to make the migrant codice mandatory for everybody and i think that's a bold statement for you know a former top official of the european council how do you think it should have been hand. you deferred think if you want to keep the internal. space. open without borders without controls moving freely from one country to the next one then you have to prove take the external board are much more effective if we did it than we have now phone takes form to exclude a little bit more than two thousand st louis' a thousand. this is not enough and i think that you commission with a new proposal is exactly working along these lines but i think protecting the external border this is important but this is only to see the defense but to see the more important or equally important the. is the prevention of

a ground floor says not only rich used today you have a lot of thousands of africans young people seeking a better future a better economic perspective for them jobs income etc and we should take them but in their own countries in their own region today if you see important this is thinking about what could happen but what about those people who have already arrived at the european borders there are more than a million of them how they should they have been distributed if there are a number of countries who claim that they cannot accept down for economic elite if they are here as they are here they are mostly now in the indeed in the media situations or most of them went to germany to sweden and to austria and of course to us or some other countries eataly greece are still very much affected but you know this mother to recall the did not look very close to if you look for is the liberal feel good luxembourg in the end except it's twenty richie's that with

a private plane the foreign minister when the prime minister of police t. pers was the prisoner of the european parliament was there greeting it will come in the refugees they have to be. a little bit informed why difficult to luxembourg today no one of these twenty refuses to listen to every will of the luxembourg to ask them to work. if you have if you really want to have a bit of functioning system you have to improve the external border protection you have to integrate those who are already in you will never find ways to put them back to your romania bulgaria or to to greece this is something this was missed in two thousand and fifteen we have to live with it in to integrate those who could get asylum and those who can not get the asylum they must be sent back to their home countries while chancellery have to live and they're really appreciative . time today and i encourage our readers to keep this conversation going in our

social media pages and i hope to see you again same place same time here on worlds apart. events of april twenty eighth one thousand nine hundred six in the historic town of port arthur tasmania for ever stay the course of history here in australia for thirty five souls lost their lives to a drop in men's madness massacre was the catalyst for the australian government to enact massive sweeping changes to the laws regarding ownership buy and selling

firearms maybe it's time for the united states to start looking for help. i've been saying the numbers mean something they matter to us is over twenty trillion dollars in debt more than ten white collar crime stamping each day. eighty five percent of global wealth you longs to be ultra rich eight point six percent market saw thirty percent the first one is pure some with four hundred to five hundred trade per second per second and bitcoin rose to twenty thousand dollars. china is building a two point one billion dollar a i industrial park but don't let the numbers overwhelm. the only numbers you need to remember is one one distance shows you can afford to miss the one and only boom but. you.

know we'll go to wolf three foreign policy shows this bog with domestic issues john but in a pittance sixteenths q. and a session with the public. an. illegal a political mistake and unacceptable world leaders lusha film trumps new tyra's ahead of friday's g.c. . seven summits. and a wake up call britain's up of parliament the house of lords is berated over members falling asleep during sessions we'll get reaction on the streets of london . the spaces are going to be let's have a nap before i went to work as a washington state i'd love to be paid for having a campaign in my office has a long day just listening to other people all day long so i get more nervous.