sagebrush is the natural environment here but as we're containing the sewage and using the plant surface to process the sewage we create our own little way says here. hello and welcome to cross talk where all things considered i'm peter lavelle the transatlantic relationship is had many ups and downs since its inception after the second world war it is said this relationship is whether these moments of tensions and differences due to american leadership enter donald trump can the transatlantic

relationship survive the current occupant in the white house. crosstalk in the transatlantic relationship i'm joined by my guest michael maloof in washington he is a former senior security policy analyst in the office of the secretary of defense in london we have been more he is a professor of international politics at city university london and in oxford we crossed about common he is the director of the crisis research institute all right gentlemen crosstalk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciate let me go to mark first in oxford on skype you know mark on. these last two programs i keep betraying my age when i can remember a good part of the history of the transatlantic relationship and they've been ups and downs they've been policy differences we can think of vietnam we can think of the illegal invasion and occupation of iraq during the reagan administration it was . intermediate missiles and they've pretty much been resolve those were problems i

get the impression now that it's turning into divisions that about values and and what with the position of each in the world because the europeans after all these decades of pretty much tied themselves to the united states and have very limited options and they're not very happy about it is this a crisis of ideology and values now not just policy issues mark in oxford but i think it's a mixture of that it's a crisis of early as well as a big difference disagreement about what is important and what should be principles between paris on one side and washington on the other shore so it's also about valuables in many ways the atlantic alliance from the late forty's on which was one in which the united states was to train economic price for security and geopolitical advantage and so the marshall plan which meant that there were certain trade imbalances that provide the. west european economies and initially it

expensive states but overall everybody benefited now trump is saying it has to be a cost benefit analysis on that basis and putting america first means america has to come out on top and that of course is cools the serious problems to european industries in finance in general because some sort of spend most of the works at all since their actions against iran do sanctions on russia and so on which have a big effect and then also trying. to kill a it's a view of the world which the or people who are simply repeating media regards with horns or for record so there's a problem and then supposedly even with the british are supposed to so out in our states they find themselves challenge to economically and also challenge to some extent on what is probably perceptible here tropicals couldn't help by tweeting about things in britain that have gone against the grain of british public opinion and you know it if i can stay with stay with me the british isles here. it is should be at the very top of this we have the iran deal with the us with the. from

but it seems to me that that is an archetype of the problems of the transatlantic relationship right now because the europeans are being told that they have to pay an economic price when they're staying in the deal in iran it wants to stay in the deal to i mean it seems that you know a bit large on the part of the united states saying well since we don't want to be part of it you shouldn't be part of it and this gets down to really kind of sovereignty at least e.u. sovereignty i'd like to talk a little bit about energy as well but i mean the europeans are being asked to go against their best interests in almost every single way and this is causing a great deal of tension go ahead of london. i think you know you've summarized the position in some respects but i do not think that is a kind of fundamental breach i think the europeans are clearly unhappy the one major diplomatic success if you like they can claim was the iran nuclear agreement and they're very upset at the united states withdrawal from it but on the other hand their ideas about iran and iran's regional power and it political missile

testing they don't differ very much so i think they they would appear to be a big tactical difference here. and so i would have what i would argue is that at the core of transatlantic relations from the very beginning i don't think there was ever any altruism involved there was always a position of power and a negotiation about power and power distribution so i think what the situation is now is that it's changed and to some extent there's a reason to go she ation of those relationships and i don't think it's only the united states which is acting much more towards is particular national interest european powers among themselves have always had tension between the european element and their national interest so i think this is just being exacerbated at this particular time and clearly don't trump played a particular game but i think in the end the levels of into. dependence between the

european union europe and the united states remain very very high and i think there is a bit of upset here but i don't think there's a fundamental breach well we'll see there might be tensions which enlisted to run. let me go to michael in washington i mean interdependency i think there's a lot more dependency than interdependency and that's what we're seeing right now and i guess fundamentally can we have a transatlantic alliance coalition as it were can it co-exist with america first and donald trump michael. well it's be it's beginning to erode what we're seeing is an erosion and perhaps a replacement of the u.s. led unilateral world order and i think that the the breaking out of leaving the the iranian deal the j.c. p.o. way was a watershed moment for countries that you're asia and especially iran as well as in western europe and what we're seeing emerge now is a new geo political shift to

a much more multi-polar approach and we're already seeing this just like what you probably saw in st petersburg with with the belt road initiative combined with the yes the shanghai cooperation organization and the year asia european union all beginning to come together with its membership forming this separate economic world order bloc that that's actually going to counter and respond to what donald trump has now done i think europe europe as well because of the sanctions are going to read are going to rebel to out as as much as they can and we're going to see that they're going to want to maintain that trade with with with iran as well as with the other countries in that and that region of the world the whole idea because the united states insists upon having the israeli policy interfere with every foreign.

decision it makes it's actually going to it's actually beginning to shift away from that and we're seeing that already you know you know market the it seems that if there's a perception i've heard this many times if the united states is treating its its friends worse than its enemies i mean it's centrally going down the track of threatening to sanction european countries and their companies and this is getting i you know i think it's the first time in the in the transatlantic alliance experience where you know sovereignty is really seems to be in and is being infringed upon i mean threatening companies that you know you are there are financial transactions you know it's forcing companies to start trading in other currencies so the the the u.s. . treasury department can't go after you i mean is that what you need to know our lives are supposed to be worried about from the united states now i mean this is a new dilemma that this coalition this lion says a facing go ahead mark well.

i do remember when it was a snapshot of for now with all of the u.s. attempt to prevent the export of the past western europe you have a very british companies taking part in that so the precedence the point is that in those cases quite quickly the common interest and who rode the division into it whereas today we face the prospect i think the long term could be good wasn't the officers who were going to this time he could be remembered and he continues with these policies he's really challenging to your pride and sense of self esteem in the one area where they feel like a group yes the e.u. is a jew political pygmy is that me but it is a trading superpower of germany. a lot of its forms of german in china for instance and so that countries like japan have an economic common interest in the wide world which trump is trying to answer because he knows he wants to cut back dramatically the u.s. trade deficit the. actually means. to bridge partners as well as the potential.

so we really have no structural changes taking place all these. cultural contrasts between. some of us will somehow. mitigate this but i. also sense that yeah you know in today we go back to you in london i mean the right before trump withdrew from the iran deal we had boris johnson visiting we had it many emmanuelle mccrum visiting trump as well and i think that they were expecting some kind of negotiation like the allies and friends are supposed to do and they they returned home empty handed in the meantime angela merkel has visited putin twice and gone to china she didn't even go to washington there is a perception at least on this side of the pond is that the united states isn't interested in negotiations it's more interested in dicta do it or else go ahead in

london while actually merkel did go to washington d.c. and what we are taught from them for withdrawal yes along with the crime for example just after micron i was given a slightly different kind of treatment i think there's a really it is a very complicated question and i think to some extent there's a there's a kind of broad long term shift going on in the kind of global geopolitics of geo economics and i think then there are these kind of tactical transactional isms which trump is championing and i think to some extent trump is being criticized but i in the end he's standing up for what he believes he's the american and he's being any he's keeping his promises let's keep that in mind. but it shouldn't be surprising ok he said this on the campaign trail keep going going keep. yes and i think what i would say about that to you is is that i think a large part of this is really a sort of tactical power play and it's as much dictated directed at home it is

a political base to try to show them that he is standing up for the united states the key thing that he had promised to really that america first was going to do for them was to basically give them back economic and other and i don't think actually any of this is going to help that core base of coal so in the end effectively it's a big theater and i think the levels of the amounts of money we're talking about here and got to the kind of sanctions on on trade or trade tariffs or whatever is relatively small it could lead to more but i think again i did see it in smaller trade wars usually start small here gentlemen we're going to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on the transatlantic relationship say with art.

forman are sitting in a car when the flips get shot in the head. for different versions of what. one of them is on the death row there's no way you could have done it there's no possible way because the list did not shoot around a corner. actually as a financial survival guide stacey let's learn how to fill out. i'm not so i guess in your theories. of the fight well street spot thank you for.

the story that's right if you looked at slavery. welcome back to cross like we're all things considered i'm peter we're discussing the transatlantic relationship. we're going to go back to michael in washington one of the interesting questions that have arisen that is it has been given as is and give much coverage is the energy politics and energy security that includes the the u.k. the rest of europe the united states and interestingly and importantly russia here and germany is very much in the center of it with the north stream pipeline the second one that's going to be being built and the americans are pretty perfuse slee against this pipeline because they want to import or export to europe very expensive ellen g.

and the germans are resist resisting it and they could face sanctions as we talk announcements could be made this is a very important issue because germany and the european union are actually defacto being denied the ability to determine their energy security it's the u.s. wants to dictate that go ahead michael. well it has to do with russian dominance of it and that's the problem and the u.s. as you point out is a johnny come lately to this the in wanting to ship l.n.g. or liquefied natural gas but the problem for the united states is it only has one port in louisiana that can export and secondly most of the european countries except those along the coast have any elegy capabilities the countries that really really need this kind of gas there are much much more internally and and certainly germany as well but the pipeline structures that exists right now and are being built. with russian dominance if you will is what's irritating the neo cons here in washington and certainly the trumpet ministration so it's

a johnny come lately effort and i i don't think it's going to sixteen and they need natural gas. well because when it is not all that far away and that they have to have a reliable source and you're going to you're going to see more and more of these countries integrating themselves apart from the united states because of this activity and energy is just one aspect of that whole geo political shift that we're that we're seeing emerge at this point you know let me go back to oxford market again if it gets down to being able to make sovereign decisions i mean i mean i don't think you have to be very ideological or very partisan dick the question well why should a country that's on the other side of the planet determine your energy policy when you have a neighbor that wants to provide energy at a reasonable price and your companies are involved in a joint venture to build that pipeline i mean i don't see how threatening that possibly could be except you want the market you want the market share i get that i

get that that's fine ok but it should be the europeans that ultimately make that decision mark in oxford where i was excited and also the united states would like to we can russia. position by weakening the state revenue by cutting its own schools or energy but as the austrian president found of elam's the great problem is that ellen g. is only a moment when energy prices are high but actually because you negotiate a long term contracts with russia to receive you get the gas well below the price which is wonderful so you have this it is a one time but it's almost impossible to have it to contradiction in order to make what you have to create a high revenue stream for russia which makes russia stronger. but if you try to which you also buy provisions for that run poorly run do you push your prices or shoot the position of the countries that you are well stocked who are suspicious of strong and also you make their boutique. to customs. more attractive so it

actually is not a very clip or since you know. all the energy let me go back to change gears and i talk a little bit about nate. you know ever since the end of the the advent of the cold war in the warsaw pact we've had nato when the soviet union came to an end nato decided to stick around and look for a new mission for itself unfortunately in two thousand and eighteen i guess that mission is to defend against russia but the european countries don't really want to pay for their defense they kind of like having the us pick up the tab term trump says you got to pay more and they still don't do it so it's kind of hard to convince publics that russia is such a threat we don't want to pay for your own defense except for poland wants to spend two billion dollars they have american troops there well why don't they just give the two billion dollars to the germans and the germans can do it form ok i mean there's a lot of possibilities there ok again countries that want want to have secure

borders particularly visa vi russia they don't want to pay for it so what how do you square the circle there go ahead in london. well i think in germany actually there are quite strong pressures from various sides of the political spectrum to to strengthen german military power and also his kind of much more independence stance on a number of global questions so i don't think there is an unwillingness on the part of many of the european powers with of nato to increase military spending to two percent which is what they're actually committed to undergo and all of that there's a lot of research there's a lot of resistance to pick it to reach that two percent of g.d.p. i mean they've been talking about it for years and they're still not doing it ok what only four countries out of the out of the entire block actually do that ok i mean they still resist doing it so that there isn't that water with me now they want something for free and then if they don't get it for free they don't want to

pay for it that's michael you but you worked at the defense department. you know well i see that. the first this is more on economic betterment between europe and and russia because there is a they have a major dependency there but the whole military concept is basically evaporated in favor of more economic opportunities such as in dealing with iran dealing with china dealing with with with russia i mean it's expanding and and nato as you pointed out is still an entity trying to find a new mission and they went to afghanistan for a little while they're still there but you know it's still it's it's on life support frankly and the europeans for for itself is looking internally to have its own defense mechanism and the french are pushing there pretty much and i think the germans because of what trump has been doing it and the way has been bludgeoned in them i think they're they're beginning to reexamine that concept but they don't see

the threat that that the neo cons and trying to do from from russia from china or from or from iran as truck does ok let me go back to you in london because he didn't get to really finish your point there i mean take do you think that there is the political will the european union for all of its problems is one of the richest places on the planet i mean it's not like it doesn't have resources has plenty of resources unfortunately a lot of them are wasted but they're still relatively rich why should they decide you know. step up and it really stiff their complaining about the united states and trump why don't they just go with alone that it's not as if they don't have the the resources to do it go ahead. but i think going it alone is probably right on viable for any major power or block today that interdependence which is built up he's very very dense the networks which are financial economic political security

intelligence as well as people to people ideas in every respect you look at the interdependencies. of of major global pillars they are very very great they're not going anywhere you can try to shake them up you can rearrange them a little bit you can renegotiate relations and i think that's what it is trying to do and some other powers are trying to do as well but i don't think you're going to get rid of the i don't think europe wants to or can go alone britain is finding itself look at the position we're in now because briggs the deal look how difficult it is to try to do anything meaningful with that because in the end you cannot just divorce yourself from a global economy and so on what you can do is try to create a sort of national conditions under which you can control the effects of globalism and i think that is what is effectively happening on a worldwide scale because the people of the countries within like the united states

and elsewhere as well they're suffering from the effects of inequality they're suffering from the fact there's unemployment because of technological change and innovation and i think people like donald trump are effectively misleading their own electorates by calling for america first and i don't think they're going to solve any of those problems but in the end that is where the pressure is really coming from and i think that that is not going to go away and that is going to lead to a degree of national level of control so i think there's going to be a renegotiation of the guard a global world that ok which allows for me to morrow meeting all of you so it's pretty personal mystical what you just said big it sounds like all these organisations are straight jackets you're in it and you can get out and there's one hedge of man that will determine the rules i mean that to say essentially what you're saying mark i mean i think that there is a political will in division i think that there could be much more. polarity i think there could be a lot more equality in it but i don't see the political will the europeans can moan

and groan all they want but they're apparently happy with the situation the way it is and trump is going the u.s. is going to snipe at them and they won't be able to do much of. how'd it go ahead marc when you also lose a pro we talked about your prince who do we mean there is the network the leaps of people sure involved in government and so on who are going to come with the old order and in a sense their trump shaking it up but also they can't imagine leaving it but then we've seen whether it's the bruises entirely in election even the also from elections on huge popular and rest including in germany with also spoke with the downsides of globalization trump russians you know just so i think there is a crisis of the west and in a way it's something which the elites in the major struck me that nato has just held its first meeting in its new purpose courtrooms and the only more sociology that i respect is social buckets and all that any organization that moves into a brand new purpose built headquarters will go bust within

a few months and one fears that we have this kind of institutional inertia that we can't really imagine of the architect of the build up of the previous decades is seeing its foundation sent away by the very popular consent which after all was the basis of the democratic. ok my goal in washington last forty seconds of the program goes to you go ahead. yeah i think what we what fundamentally what we're seeing is that the erosion of that unilateral world order and it's big and it's beginning to catch up to riyadh reality is beginning to catch up to the europeans just like with three some may she she's doing brecht's that of course that she look to the u.s. as an alternative market but because of sanctions now she's going to be looking more and more toward china and i think you're going to see that wave increasing in the coming years simply because we have this new multi-polar emerging that that is kind of just isolate in effect isolate the u.s. unless it stops its. bad in people over the head all the time well we'll see we'll

see if america first can co-exist. the transatlantic alliance that has existed since the second world war seems pretty incompatible to me but we'll see that's all the time we have gentlemen many thanks so much to my guests in washington london and in oxford and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at r.t.c. a next time and remember cross-talk rules. the events of april twenty eighth one thousand nine hundred six in the historic town of port arthur tasmania for ever changed the course of history here in australia thirty five souls lost their lives to a gunman massacre was the catalyst for the australian government to enact massive sweeping changes to the laws regarding ownership by i'm selling

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