and heating the house and being stored in massive walls. sagebrush is the natural environment here but as we're containing the sewage and using the plant surface to process the sewage we create our own little way says here. hello and welcome to cross talk where all things considered i'm peter lavelle the

transatlantic relationship is had many ups and downs since its inception after the second world war it is said this relationship is whether these moments of tensions and differences due to american leadership enter donald trump can the transatlantic relationship survive the current occupant in the white house. crosstalk in the transatlantic relationship i'm joined by my guest michael maloof in washington he is a former senior security policy analyst in the office of the secretary of defense in london we have been marred he is a professor of international politics at city university london and in oxford we crossed about common he is the director of the crisis research institute all right gentlemen crosstalk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciate let me go to mark first in oxford on skype you know mark on. these last two programs like keep betraying my age when i can remember a good part of the. mystery of the transatlantic relationship and they've been ups

and downs they've been policy differences we can think of a vietnam we can think of the illegal invasion and occupation of iraq during the reagan administration it was interim idiot missiles and they've pretty much been resolved those were problems i get the impression now that it's turning into divisions that about values and and what with the position of each in the world because the europeans after all these decades of pretty much tied themselves to the united states and have very limited options and are not very happy about it is this a crisis of ideology and values now not just policy issues mark in oxford but i think it's a mixture of that it's a crisis of early as well as a big difference disagreement about what is important and what should be principles between paris on one side and washington on the other choice but it's also about valuables in many ways the atlantic alliance from the late forty's on which was one

in which the united states was to create an economic crisis for security and geopolitical advantage and so the marshall plan which meant that there were certain trade imbalances that were valued. the west european economies and initially it expensive states but overall everybody benefited now trump is saying it has to be a cost benefit analysis on that basis and putting america first means america has to come out on top and of course in schools the serious problems to european industries in finance in general because something that the united states is sort of spent most of the works at all since their actions against iran do sanctions on russia and so on which have a big effect and then also try. to kill a it's a view of the world which the your people and which simply repeated media regards with horns court record so there's a problem and then supposedly even with the british are supposed to so much united states they find themselves challenge to economically and also challenge to some extent on what is probably perceptible here trying to. couldn't go on tweeting

about. going to. it if i could stay with they would be the british isles here. the issue the very top of this we have the iran deal with the us withdrew from but it seems to me that that is an archetype of the problems of the transatlantic relationship right now because the europeans are being told that they have to pay an economic price when they're staying in the deal in iran it wants to stay in the deal to i mean it seems that you know a bit large on the part of the united states saying well since we don't want to be part of it you shouldn't be part of it and this gets down to really kind of sovereignty at least e.u. sovereignty i'd like to talk a little bit about energy as well but i mean the europeans are being asked to go against their best interests in almost every single way and this is causing a great deal of tension go ahead of london. i think you know you've summarized the position in some respects but i do not think that is a kind of fundamental breach i think the europeans are clearly unhappy the one

major diplomatic success if you like they could claim was the iran nuclear agreement and they're very upset at the united states withdrawal from it but on the other hand their ideas about iran and iran's regional power and it political missile testing they don't differ very much so i think they they would appear to be a big tactical difference here. and so i would have what i would argue is that at the core of transatlantic relations from the very beginning i don't think there was ever any altruism involved there was always a position of power and a negotiation about power and power distribution so i think what the situation is now is that it's changed and to some extent there's a reason to go she ation of those relationships and i don't think it's only the united states which is acting much more towards is particular national interest european. among themselves have always had tension between the european element and

their national interest so i think this is just being exacerbated at this particular time and clearly don't trump plays a particular game but i think in the end the levels of into dependence between the european union europe and the united states remain very very high and i think there is a bit of upset here but i don't think there's a fundamental breach well we'll see there might be tensions which enlisted to run. let me go to michael in washington i mean interdependency i think there's a lot more dependency than interdependency and that's what we're seeing right now and i guess fundamentally can we have a transatlantic alliance coalition as it were can't co-exist with america first and donald trump michael. well it's be it's beginning to erode what we're seeing is an erosion and perhaps a replacement of the u.s. led unilateral world order and i think that the breaking out of leaving the the

iranian deal the j.c. p.o. way was a watershed moment for countries that in a year asia and especially iran as well as in western europe and what we're seeing emerge now is a new geo political shift to a much more multi-polar approach and we're already seeing this just like what you probably saw in st petersburg with with the belt road initiative combined with the yes the shanghai cooperation organization and the year asia european union all beginning to come together with its membership forming this separate economic world order bloc that that's actually going to counter and respond to what donald trump has now done i think europe europe as well because of the sanctions are going to read are going to rebel to out as as much as they can and we're going to see that they're going to want to maintain that trade. with with with iran as well as with

the other countries and that and that region of the world the whole idea because the united states insists upon having the israeli policy interfere with every foreign policy decision it makes it's actually going to it's actually beginning to shift away from that and we're seeing that already you know you know market it seems that if there's a perception i've heard this many times if the united states is treating its its friends worse than its enemies i mean it's centrally going down the track of threatening to sanction european countries and their companies and this is getting i you know i think it's the first time in the in the transatlantic alliance experience where you know sovereignty is really seems to be in and is being infringed upon i mean threatening companies that you know we there are financial transactions you know it's forcing companies to start trading in other currencies so the the the u.s. . treasury department can't go after you i mean is that what the nato allies are

supposed to be worried about from the united states now i mean this is a new dilemma that this coalition this the lion says a facing go ahead mark. and i do remember when it was a snapshot of for now with all who have the u.s. attempt to prevent the export of the soviet cast western europe you have a very british companies taking part in that so there's a big precedence the point is that in those cases quite quickly the common interests of gurode the divisions into it whereas today we face the prospect of dong from could he said he wasn't in office who were going to this time he could be remembered and he continues with these policies he's really challenging the you are pretty insensitive to the one area where they feel what group yes the e.u. is a pick me is that me but to use the trading superpower of germany. plus

a lot of schools so germany and china for instance. an economic common interest to the wider world which trump is trying to answer because he knows he wants to cut back dramatically the u.s. trade deficit that actually means. good partners as well as a potential. china so we really have no structural changes taking place all the corporation all the cultural contrasts between the united states and the roadworks will somehow. mitigate this but i have a feeling that in the end it will be dollars and cents the yeah you know intraday we go back to you in london i mean the right before trump withdrew from the rand deal we had boris johnson visiting we had it many emmanuelle mccrum visiting trump as well and i think that they were expecting some kind of negotiation like the allies and friends are supposed to do and they they returned home empty handed in the meantime angela merkel has visited putin twice and gone to china she didn't

even go to washington there is a perception at least on this side of the pond is that the united states isn't interested in negotiations it's more interested in dicta do it or else go ahead in london while actually merkel did go to washington d.c. and well before well before right withdraw yes along with the crime for example just after mccrone i was given a slightly different kind of treatment i think this is a really it is a very complicated question and i think to some extent there's a there's a kind of broad long term shift going on in the kind of global geopolitics of geo economics and i think then there are these kind of tactical transactional isms which trump is championing and i think to some extent trumping is being criticized but i in the end he's standing up for what he believes he's the american and he's against being any he's keeping his promises let's keep that in mind that we

shouldn't be surprising ok he said this on the campaign trail keep going going keep . yes and i think what i would say about that to you is is that i think a large part of this is really a sort of tactical power play and it's as much dictated directed at home a political base to try to show them that he is standing up for the united states the key thing that he had promised really that america first was going to do for them was to basically give them back economic and other and i don't think actually any of this is going to help that core base of coal so in the end effectively it's a big theater and i think the levels of the amounts of money we're talking about here and got to the kind of sanctions on on trade or trade towers or whatever is relatively small it could lead to more but i think again i did see the. trade wars usually start small here gentlemen we're going to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on the transatlantic relationship stay with art.

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welcome back to cross talk we're all things considered i'm peter we're discussing the transatlantic relationship. we're going to go back to michael in washington one of the interesting questions that have arisen that is hasn't given his isn't good much coverage is the energy politics and energy security that includes. the u.k. the rest of europe the united states and interestingly and importantly russia here and germany is very much in the center of it with the north stream pipeline the second one that's going to be is being built and the americans are pretty perfuse slee against this pipeline because they want to import or export to europe very expensive ellen g.

and the germans are recent resisting it and they could face sanctions as we talk announcements could be made this is a very important issue because germany and the european union are actually. defacto being denied the ability to determine their energy security it's the u.s. wants to dictate that go ahead michael. well it has to do with russian dominance of it and that's the problem and the u.s. as you point out is a johnny come lately to this the in wanting to ship l.n.g. or liquefied natural gas but the problem for the united states is it only has one port in louisiana that can export and secondly most of the european countries except those along the coast have any elegy capabilities the countries that really really need this kind of gas there are much much more internally and and certainly germany as well but the pipeline structures that exist right now and are being built. up with russian dominance if you will is what irritated in the near cons here in washington and certainly the trumpet ministration so it's

a johnny come lately effort and i i don't think it's going to succeed and they need natural gas now because when it is not all that far away and they have to have a reliable source and you're going to you're going to see more and more of these countries integrating themselves apart from the united states because of this activity and energy is just one aspect of that whole geo political shift that we're that we're seeing emerge at this point you know let me go back to oxford mark again if it gets down to being able to make sovereign decisions i mean i mean i don't think you have to be very ideological or very partisan to the question well why should a country that's on the other side of the planet determine your energy policy when you have a neighbor that wants to provide energy at a reasonable price and your companies are involved in a joint venture to build that pipeline i mean i don't see how threatening that possibly could be except for you want the market you want the market share i get

that i get that that's fine ok but it should be the europeans that ultimately make that decision mark in oxford where it was exhausted also the united states. going to weaken russia. position by weakening the state revenue by cutting its own schools or energy but as the austrian president from development the great problem is that ellen g. is only a moment people are all well and the prices so high that actually because you negotiate long term contracts with russia to receive gas you get the gas well below the price which is why also you have this water but it's almost impossible to have it to contradiction in order to make what you have to create a high revenue stream for russia which makes for a stronger signal for you to burst but if you try to reach if you also buy provisions that run poorly run do you push your prices are actually the position of the country that you are well sold to a special strong and also you make their boutique. to customs. more

attractive so it actually is not a very clear since you not going. to. get in or tell me go back to change gears and i talk a little bit about nato you know ever since the end of the in the advent of the cold war in the warsaw pact we've had nato when the soviet union came to an end nato decided to stick around and look for a new mission for itself unfortunately in two thousand and eighteen i guess that mission is to vent to defend against russia but the european countries don't really want to pay for their defense they kind of like having the us pick up the tab trump says you got to pay more and they still don't do it so it's kind of hard to convince publics that russia is such a threat we don't want to pay for your own defense except for poland wants to spend two billion dollars they have american troops there well why don't they just give the two billion dollars to the germans and the germans can do it form ok i mean there's a lot of possibilities there ok again countries that it want want to have secure

borders particularly visa v. russia they don't want to pay for it so what how do you square the circle there go ahead in london. well i think in germany. there are quite strong pressures from various sides of the political spectrum to to strengthen german military power and also he's kind of much more independence stance on a number of global questions so i don't think there is an unwillingness on the part of many of the european powers with nato to increase military spending to two percent which is what they're actually committed to under the you know that there's a lot of trees there's a lot of resistance to pick it to reach that two percent of g.d.p. i mean they've been talking about it for years and they're still not doing it ok what only four countries out of the out of the entire block actually do that ok i mean they still resist doing it so that doesn't count water with me no they want something for free and then if they don't get it for free they don't want to pay

for it that's not michael you but you work through the defense department. you know well i see that the first this is more on economic betterment between europe and and russia because that is a they have a major dependency there but the whole military concept is basically evaporated in favor of more economic opportunities such as in dealing with iran dealing with china dealing with with with russia i mean it's expanding and and nato as you pointed out is still an entity trying to find a new mission and they went to afghanistan for a little while they're still there but you know it's still it's it's on life support frankly and the europeans who are for itself is looking internally to have its own defense mechanism and the french are pushing there pretty much and and i think the germans because of what trump has been doing it and the way it's been bludgeoned in them i think they're they're beginning to reexamine that concept but

they don't see the threat that that the neo cons and trying to do from from russia from. china or from or from iran. ok let me go back to you in london because he didn't get to really finish your point there i mean take do you think that there is the political will the european union for all of its problems are one of the richest places on the planet i mean it's not like it doesn't have resources has plenty of resources unfortunately a lot of them are wasted but they're still relatively rich why should they did you know. step up in it really see if they're complaining about the united states and trump why don't they just go it alone that it's not as if they don't have the resources to do it go ahead. but i think going alone is probably an viable for any major power or block today that interdependence which is built up is very very dense the networks which are financial economic political security

intelligence as well as people to people ideas in every respect you look at the interdependencies of of major global pillars they are very very great they're not going anywhere you can try to shake them up you can rearrange them a little bit you can renegotiate relations and i think that's what it is trying to do and some other powers are trying to do as well but i don't think you're going to get rid of the i don't think europe wants to or can go alone britain is finding itself look at the position we're in now because briggs a deal look how difficult it is to try to do anything meaningful with that because in the end you cannot just divorce yourself from a global economy and so on what you can do is try to create a sort of national conditions under which you can control the effects of globalism and i think that is what is effectively happening on a worldwide scale because the people of the countries within like the united states

and elsewhere as well they're suffering from the effects of inequality they're suffering from the fact there's unemployment because of technological change and innovation and i think people are. donald trump are effectively misleading their own electorates by calling for america first and i don't think they're going to solve any of those problems but in the end that is where the pressure is really coming from and i think that is not going to go away and that is going to lead to a degree of national level of control so i think there's going to be a renegotiation of the kind of global market ok we to allows them are having all you say it's pretty pessimistic what you just said big it sounds like all these organizations are straight jackets you're in it and you can't get out and there's one hedge of man that will determine the rules i mean that to say it is actually what you're saying mark i mean i think that there is a political will and division i think that there could be much more. polarity i think there could be a lot more equality in it but i don't see the political work that the europeans can

moan and groan all they want but they're fat and happy with the situation the way it is and trump is going the u.s. is going to be but snipe at them and they won't be able to do much about it go ahead mark what you also lose a problem when we talk about you we're going to do we mean there is the network elites of people shareholder and government and so on who were coming with the old order and in a sense they're trying tricking it out but also they can't imagine leaving it but then we've seen whether it's the brute's how did election even the os from elections and so on huge popular unrest in germany with also spoke of the downsides of globalization trump after all the united states so i think there is a crisis of the west and in a way it's something which the elites in the. us struck with nato has just held its first meeting in its nuclear pursuit of courtrooms and the only door of sociology that i respect is social pockets and more than any organization that moves in to bring you corpus world headquarters will go bust within

a few months. one fears that we have this kind of institutional inertia that we can't really imagine and the architect of the previous. by the very concerned which of two was the basis of the democratic. ok my goal in washington last forty seconds of the program goes to you go ahead. you know i think what we just fundamentally what we're seeing is that the erosion of that unilateral world order and it's big and it's beginning to catch up to riyadh reality is beginning to catch up to the europeans just like with theresa may she she's doing brecht's it of course that she looked to the u.s. as an alternative market but because of sanctions now she's going to be looking more and more toward china and i think you're going to see that wave increasing in the coming years simply because we have this new multi-polar emerging that is kind of just isolate in effect isolate the u.s.

unless it stops its. bad people over the head all the time well we'll see we'll see if america first can co-exist with a transatlantic alliance that has existed since the second world war seems pretty incompatible to me but we'll see that's all the time we have gentlemen many thanks so much to my guests in washington london and in oxford and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at r.t.c. a next time and remember crosstalk. event for the april twenty eighth one thousand nine hundred sixty the historic town of port arthur tasmania for ever sank the course of history here in australia thirty five souls lost their lives to a gunman massacre was the catalyst for the australian government but after path of sweeping changes in our laws and our own are set by and selling

a firearm maybe it's time for the united states to start looking for help. because it isn't. the church secret indeed just like priests accused of sexually abusing children it can get away with it quite literally i like to call this the do graphic solution so what the bishop needs to do then he finds out that the priest says is a perpetrator is simply moved him to a different spot where the previous standard was not known the highest ranks of the catholic church conceal the accused priests from the police and justice system to that end of that's known as the i and then i included used this doubt in. this. case felt that.

i don't think that we should get above all cells are going on bred to be british but we are not a superpower and we should not pretend that we are as people we haven't got an empire anymore nor should we have one so i think there's a limit to what britain can achieve on its own what we what we can achieve is is work together to to build world peace to working with other countries we're not going to do it as little britain on our runs. no further.

use to be. right now. we have a right to go. ahead of the g. seven summit the u.s. and the tally in leaders call for the g. eight hundred be reinstated with russia returned to the group of leading industrial nations but there's also talk of a chief six two is the french president suggests taking action the u.s. . you don't get maybe the american president doesn't mind being isolated today but we also don't mind being six if need be. also to come this hour the red cross poll seventy one workers out of war torn yemen over security risks the humanitarian group says its activity in the country has been blocked threatened and directly targeted.