baker the former u.s. secretary of state saying in one thousand nine hundred three that russia could perhaps join nato and that i think there was a lost opportunity there at the end of the. growth of the u.s. or i should joining nato as nato was originally created to counter soviet union in big part russia i mean they go in itself with russia and it is absolute it doesn't make any sense anyway so the guardian has reported that u.k. is planning to use upcoming summits like the g seven g twenty nato and the e.u. gatherings to tighten the diplomatic front against russia do you think the foreign office will succeed. look i think i just did it just going back to the just going back to the whole nato thing i think if nato was norm's. pact designed to counter russian the soviet union there's no reason why as a collective security organization that russia couldn't join not think about what's the point point about russia joining nato or not joining nato and i think president

putin has talked about that. so it's not beyond the realms of possibility well you know i think i think times times are changing you know i mean since the second a war they have british foreign policy has basically been to keep close to the united states as possible on the clear reasons for that britain relied on the united states for med perspective to defend them against the strength of the soviet union that was the first thing and british policy has always been that if we wanted to influence will the phase we needed to stay close to the united states an un trying to influence them through to our advantage but the world has changed i think the the will that existed before where you had one hyper power off of the fall of the berlin wall and breakup of the soviet union or the united states is no longer the case you have rising china where it's already the population john it's almost one in six of the world's population it's already overtaken the united states in

economic terms in terms of. spending power and. you know the actually standard living in terms of the growth that's down to living in china and the growth of the economy so the world is changing and i think the united. kingdom needs to bear that in mind when it comes to foreign policy for the future so i feel like you know russia being this infernal anime is like at very confortable thing to have for many western countries for many razors for us and u.k. defense secretary kevin williamson has recently appealed for more defense funding citing russia's resurgence under putting and you may remember his predecessor michael fallon using the very same language. asking for an krista fan spamming i mean that this is this rush of hard work like flawlessly every time here are the fan secretaries just happy about putin's emits fitting their budgets well i mean the first thing is the u.k. defense forces they're under funded i mean the army has not being this small since the time of the napoleonic war but i think you need to get this in perspective nato

spending already is collectively twenty times out of russia so russia is in terms of its spending on military forces is still some way behind nato as i say there has been this sort of ratcheting up of rhetoric in terms of the security threat that russia poses but i mean the world is actually facing a bigger threat from say international terrorism which clearly we've seen both on the streets of british cities and across europe and indeed in russia and notably of course the middle east so i would say that the greatest threat to the existential threat to the west and other countries of the world is actually international terrorism and there are other areas that we need to work together fighting for example the global trade in drugs people trafficking and there are areas where we need to work together to bring peace notably syria iraq is still an issue

afghanistan and the latest example in north korea as well where president trump and his administration is working to achieve good denuclearize ation in the korean peninsula these are all areas that we should be working together not focusing on what is effectively cold war rhetoric and sometimes for from both sides and we need to actually move away from that and some of the rhetoric has not been very helpful in terms of engagement on to in terms of developing world peace so how far do you think london will go and confronting russia can it afford to i mean for instance cut financial ties with russia all together with all they were russian investment in the u.k. do you think they can do that. well i mean russia is not a major in would invest the the u.k. and the united states is major and would invest the front resample of a you country's major investors but it will have a disproportionate effect if for example russians do not invest in the u.k.

we've already seen that every move it has said that he'll council the one billion pound development of a football stadium in west london which will fit about local economy in the london economy so there will be a cost to taking this sort of action of course i'm not against the u.k. or other countries fighting an influx of dirty money because we all know where the oligarchs in the early ninety ninety s. got their money from with the breakup of the soviet union and a lot of the wealth business inside russia ended up in the hands of their incidence because you just brought him up as an example because he's money seems to be quite transparent clint what do you read into a not promote his work this end up being renewed in the u.k. is this a very first of many more refusals to come well you know clearly clearly it's political but what you know what i've said to the government security minister you've got a security minister ok to tackle dirty money and tackle criminality that that's

fair enough but you need to be objective and do it across the board not just russian oligarchs who let's face it virtually a lot of them a quad their wealth in in devious manner in the early ninety nine but also taking on maybe dubious saudi princes money from africa dirty money from africa or in china so if we are going to tackle the influx of dirty money then we need to do it across the board and it should be for moral reasons for economic reasons it shouldn't be politically motivated and i think the daily between only two individuals i mean it's like political motivations are said to do we agree that in opera mochi is case this is politically moderated rather than. and. tackling dirty money well i mean the government with would say well they're not saying actually that german. money was dirty they would say that they were merely looking into his case and there was no decision on that they haven't they haven't said that i

remember his wealth came from those that have sources i just saying that you know under the new visa rules and needing to look into these cases in more detail but i think i think it's pretty clear that a lot of gox and other people that have seemed to be close to president putin have come under increased scrutiny i'm not as being primarily for political reasons so we need to separate the political motivation for some of these actions and the economic and moral reasons for. this sort of action i mean the city of london needs to be seen to be very clean and that's fair enough but we need to do it on a rational basis noughts and all the purely political basis to see if there is any chance that economic pressure will force u.k. leaders to rethink the sanctions because right now the number stands at ten billion reportedly lost every year due to the anti russian measures well you know i think i

am actually opposed to the sanctions against russia entirely for the reason that i don't think sanctions will work if you look at cuba over the last fifty years the sanctions had no impact whatsoever in changing the policy of the leadership of cuba sanctions are useful in terms of bringing people to the negotiating table but there's no sign actually that the west has any desire to bring brusha russia during negotiating table to to discuss anything and if you look at the sanctions as well if you look at europe european wide the e.u. european countries have something like you know fourteen times more trade with with russia than the united states there for the united states to impose sanctions against russia. it's pretty much. economically light decision for them it doesn't really have an impact on their economy it has a big impact upon the european economy as a whole when you have countries like germany that have reliant on german on russian

imports of gas and do a lot of business with russia who are very concerned about the sanctions and indeed in the new government in italy which is frankly saying that they think the sanctions against russia should be dropped so again you know the world is changing the days when the united states would just turn around and say you know we're going to impose sanctions on everyone else needs to fall or those days are coming to a close even had a french minister saying you know that the europeans are not facile states the united states there is a different mood and particularly with the trumpet ministration it's becoming more and more difficult for western powers to follow the united states blindly or you'd have the united states pulling out of the paris climate accord you've had them imposing tariffs against the e.u. e.u. station nations and you've also had the united states pulling out of the iran nuclear deal now in the promised britain always followed as i said since the second war with one exception to be and was always followed the united states but it's

becoming increasingly difficult even for the u.k. to follow the u.s. in all these issues because the u.k. is saying hold on we don't actually agree and it may well come to a point again with the sanctions where it's the europeans who say look we're not going to go along with these sanctions anymore if that happens on the kid's got to be very difficult if not impossible for the u.k. to try to go it alone on sanctions against russia even if they have the support of the united states aren't going to say about the united states and sanctions it's it's interesting that the i don't think it's don't trump personal preference is very much the preference of the military industrial elite. in the united states to use sanctions and this sort of neo conservative policy against russia and you've got those people around donald trump on by john bolton mathis to our own actually is the moderate in the in the group who have generally a more hostile attitude to russia would like but trump is buying my them the state

department the pentagon and also by congress to have a much more hostile attitude towards russia so even if trump wants to change the policy he's finding it difficult to walk then we can talk about that in the second half to our program but we'll have to take a short break right now with but we'll be back topical to our member of the house of lords discussing the u.k. russia confrontational and the challenges to a post that u.k. has to deal with stay with us. i think that donald trump is really confident about his capacity is ability to

persuade people and the power of his personality and all this kind of things and i'm sure the kids i'm going will try to play this card will try to give donald trump something he can tweet so he can he can show to everyone look i'm the first one i'm the one who rolls the art of the deal i'm the first one can make a deal with this guy what every other american president before me failed i succeeded. radially reinforced rammed earth bricks was what they really are. this is more than seventy houses about one hundred forty people with families living here. it's really

a way of forming same in. their sons coming in and heating their house and being stored in massive walls. sagebrush is the natural environment here but as we're containing the sewage and using the plants sort of to process the sewage we create our own little way system here.

and whereas the lord peter truscott member of the house of lords discussing the case politics and so on post here of welcome back so there are calls from your colleagues like lord waverly laura to kill clooney in the house of lords to and for bill escalation aimed at russia and to engage in more cooperation dialogue with moscow are there ways is being hurried or are they considered as marginals. well i think i think i'm fortunate the moment is still in the minority their voices on being and you know what one encouraging thing for me is that there are more people saying that now than than say a couple of years ago a couple years ago things were. pretty bad in terms of their research phobia and the rhetoric which was used against russia in the house improve noticeably in the house of lords i think. in the house of commons is

a bit more of an uphill struggle but nevertheless there are people increasingly speaking up and saying you know this is all very well but where where is this going to lead us you know where our sanctions going to lead us where is all this rhetoric going to lead us you know do we want to end up in a conflict with russia i mean what what's the endgame it doesn't really make sense and at the end of the day you know we should have a dialogue there are many areas where we need to engage quite frankly and then there is also like the culture of discourse and the language that countries use to confront each other why has the diplomatic language used by united kingdom deteriorated so badly i mean the british defense secretary saying russia should shut up that's like a direct quote the foreign secretary comparing the world cup to killer so lympics and those are moves that can only result in knowing and outraging the other side is that london's true goal in this game all are there's just random blunders. well you

know i mean i agree that language is totally unacceptable and anyone who knows anything about russian history would find those remarks particularly. referring to nazi germany and comparing washington also germany is just beyond the pale and i i think really that those ministers should be reined in sort of language is not acceptable what i think it's all about it's the it's a political posturing and you have boris johnson and we need to the. defense secretary posturing really trying to put themselves. at the head of the party in the public limelight and i think really that's what it's about when it comes to the farm sector in the different defense sector it's a political posturing role than anything else. so you're saying while u.k.'s adopting a confrontational stance talking tough and gathering backers against moscow some of its allies like italy adopting a more pragmatic strategy confirmation on one issue cooperation and other like in

the middle east for instance is the united kingdom shutting itself out of solutions to global problems by antagonizing the russians to the point of not being able to work with them at all on anything it will on mutually beneficial issues i think it is to a certain extent not something that been saying for quite a while that if you want to have a serious influence on events in places like syria then you need to constructively engage with russia and i think all this sort of rhetoric that we've heard from the defense sector in the foreign sector doesn't really help that we should be working together to solve international issues actually we should be fine where we disagree if we think the things that are happening that we don't approve of them we can we can say about but there's one thing about being frank. but you can use diplomatic language and be frank and this is another thing about using hysterical rhetoric and not engaging a tool and i think the u.k.

at the moment is sort of roll the cloning tools the lesser all the forma so how does this through estimates forging a european league of anti russian measures go with her taking the u.k. out of the e.u. how easy will it be for the u.k. to pressure the other here pay nations to follow london's line after it makes a heart brecht's it which is to course now right. well i. saw threats they will have to say and somebody was saying there won't be a break at all because it's such a shambles but let's see how about one goes but one least clear is that britain at the end of the day is the medium sized power it punches above its weight at the moment but it also has a certain amount of influence because it's within the e.u. when it leaves the e.u. pretty sure it will the next year it's going to be on its own with the without the e.u. and the weight of the e.u. behind it so it's going to find it more difficult i think to have influence in the

world and if if it sort of tries to isolate countries like russia and doesn't sort of engage with them it will be seeing that its own position is weak and the end of the rusher is a nuclear state member of the permanent five on the un security council and it makes sense to engage with with russia the whole thing about bret's it is that britain has to find a new role in the world and in that case and it has to be engaging with emerging economies has to be engaging with with countries like russia and some countries that quite frankly in the pong. it hasn't really taken very much care about when it comes to domestic relations you know funny enough that many officials in the current u.k. government have said that the u.k. safer in the you because a moscow secured this russian thread be used to actually justify slowing down or even doing a complete u. turn on the exit. no i don't really see that happening at all quite frankly if we

stay within the e.u. it will be for political reasons it's unlikely but it will be because the government falls in the u.k. because it doesn't have the votes needed to push through its its version of brecht's it whatever that comes to be and then there is another general election where all the parties promise a second referendum on your membership with that to happen and then that to take place and the british people vote not to come out of the e.u. then we would stay within the e.u. a result of that but i think that the likelihood of happening at the moment is not probable but it is still possible and that's the only way that the u.k. would stay within the european union so i london is searching for support inside the e.u. many voters who put the current government in place are distrustful towards to block how well teressa may deal with the contradiction contradiction. well she's

finding it difficult at the moment i don't think she can that's the problem because there are just so many different views on how this should be dealt with in the brics it is within the camp won't basically to cut free of the the customs union the single market and for britain to get to go on its own to make these trade deals across the world but i think the problem is that majority of our trade is with the european union and some of these other countries that supposedly we should go off mate you deals with like like the united states already showing us that they're going to push us to make very tough deals to accept a lot of things that we don't want to accept currently so i think there is this problem of the heart of the debate the moment the brics that is one thing the future for britain which is very difficult to achieve another pragmatist saying we need to maintain strong links with the e.u. say through a customs union which the brics that is we're going to accept so that is that is within the conservative party and within the cabinet and then you look at polymer

the whole and the there are divisions there so it's something that is very difficult to achieve for this prime minister who's at the end of the day is also a very weak prime minister. for johnson sat that was bracks at the u.k. will no longer be some carrier on the world stage and will be a global player protagonists yet we see that in times of crisis the u.k. is still rushing for a year support as if they are really a global player and own right right now mr johnson claims that. well i think i think probably britain is a global because it has its position in the united nations security council of the commonwealth you know it is one of the largest economies in the world so i number six so it is a global play i don't think that we should get above all cells i mean bred to be british but we are not a superpower and we should not pretend that we are a superpower we haven't got an empire anymore nor should we have one so i think

there's a limit to what britain can achieve on its own what we what we can achieve is is work together to to build will peace through working with other countries we're not going to do it as little britain on our own and so i think if boris johnson is saying that then he's wrong so even inside to rest amaze cabinet there is no single vision on brocks at itself with some ministers differing over the divorce and it's all become quite public how have they failed secured her cabinet line and in fact the bracks at negotiations for the united kingdom i think she's filed to keep her in law and because there is this fundamental split in the cabinet that i've described the new majority in the house of commons is so small that she can't really a fluid majorette resignations from the foreign secretary there's also talk about david davis the breaths that secretary early signing over the last few days so if

not what's happened in her government were to fall apart and she lost a majority in the commons then she found herself in a very difficult position so she is a weak prime minister and it's very difficult for. people least disparate cabinet ministers and even parliamentarians together singing from the same hymn sheet it's not happening at the moment and it is starting to make bricks that look like a bit of a orange shambles actually all right thank you so much for this insight and for your socks lart truscott over talking to the peter truscott the number of the you has house of lords discussing their latest. celena relations between last go on london there are other challenges you play is facing today that's it for this edition of something call see you next.

at the cia. by. the church secret indeed just like priests accused of sexually abusing children can get away with it literally i like to call this the geographic solution so what the bishop needs to do then he finds out that the priest is is a perpetrator is simply moves him to a different spot where the previous standard is not normal highest ranks of the

catholic church. conceal the accused priests from the police and justice system to that end doesn't get us the i intended to include on a tuesday. instead of. you know our friend dimitri orloff wrote a famous essay collapse gap a few years ago said that the soviet union and america would both collapse for the similar reasons just that the us would take longer they positioned i said soviet union was like falling out of a one story window and america's like story falling out of a twenty story window and i think we're seeing this now play out real time america's falling out of the twenty story window it is a collapse gap the soviet union america collapsed roughly the same time for roughly the same reasons and now america is having its boris yeltsin moment with donald trump.

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see seven witnesses in. this house. the fact is we have price yes this is. the g. seven summit for us and italian leaders call for the g. eight summit being reinstated with russia returned to the group of leading industrial nations but there's also talk of a g six as the french president suggests kicking out the u.s. . you don't get maybe the american president doesn't mind being isolated today but we also don't mind being six if need be. the red cross poll seventy one workers out of war torn yemen over security risks and humanitarian groups says its activity in the country has been blocked threatened and of directly hard.