in today's going underground but first the british house of commons with this is defense questions today and what are you gay defense department is here is its boss declaring some kind of war with russia. should go away should shut up but there is a major government doesn't just want russia to go away we placing a disgrace deportations gandel home secretary is this man who wants private corporations to help defend earth from russia we will also increase our cooperation with the private sector as someone with a private sector background myself i understand that government cannot deal with these kinds of challenges alone because anyone who banks or bailed a bank or who has taken a privatized train in britain knows how efficient the private sector is and remember these for profit corporations are not necessarily targeting isis terror they're also be targeting russian terror north course or we have new type attacks by hostile states the attempted murders in sol's reward outrageous attack on our

soil using military grade nerve agent that in itself was a brazen message from the russian state. we also know that the way that terrorists attacks on their planned and conducted has changed. people are increasingly being radicalized why their computers and smart phones yes terror from those radicalized by computers and smart phones of military grade nerve agent that doesn't kill a russian terror plot that has no conclusive evidence whatever is he going to do community policing to gather intelligence or a centralized police state there's approximately at the moment some three thousand subjects of interest that the security services. are sort of looking at each day and there's also a further twenty thousand of what they refer to as the close objects of interest previously investigated not any more of the twenty thousand i think there will

always be that's a few hundred that although there are close subjects at a local level these agencies might be able to sort of help with them and maybe come with an intervention program of some sort yes there are twenty thousand innocent until proven guilty people who have done nothing wrong that can be pinned on them they're going to somehow be intervened on even though they can't be arrested information against them will be shared around people on the list won't even know they're on a list and will have no ability to counter miss identification or false information with russia being lumped in this will stop people like the script files being poisoned thankfully the usa arguably remembers german coffee and those russia could detonate the entire u.k. at a moment's notice with or without terms like reach such a job ads secretly shared lists in fact the us system of checks and balances from congressional appointment hearings for the cia's new boss gina hurst baltar the

senate torture report lifted the veil a month speakable crimes joining me now is a cia veteran ray mcgovern ray thanks for coming back on there whether you have that much faith in the u.s. system but what did you make of the european court of human rights finding with you when you're in rumania for hosting cia black sites i thought it was six. right good of course it came late we knew that the lithuanians in the polls and the rumanians and many other countries including thailand. had cooperated in the kidnapping torture and so forth. of these cia sites but it was good to get it on the record and people should take notice oddly it also indicates that gina haskell will probably not be able to land in places like berlin or paris without some trepidation that should be arrested on the spot under the principle of universal jurisdiction i have to say though that they haven't been direct connections with

the new boss of the cia to that but you think anyway the united states will be that worried that alone their arguable proxies of a one hundred twenty thousand dollar fine seem to be. critics well i have to mention that china has bill is directly responsible for what happened to the shiri one of the people who was also tortured in lithuania when she was there onsite as he was water boarded in thailand so the fact that she was able to dance away from that charge during the senate hearing was really unconscionable the judges according to some news that she was more kicks accuses and rectal feeding of of it all right. well you know it was really gruesome you mention the senate investigation report four years in the making and released just before the current

chair richard burr took the chair of the senate intelligence committee now the first thing he did was recall the copies of that senate for your report what does that tell you all right he was involved he was in the house and the senate intelligence committees when all this was going on there joe. and at the hip the overseers are not overseers they're over lookers and what they do is kind of take care of people like gina hasbro and instead of requiring her to answer the questions they let her go to executive session boss in fairness to gina many people in the mainstream newspapers of record whatever they say that is the context of the nine eleven and surely you're not suggesting nuremberg rules should apply the f.t. here the japanese own financial times said a hospital coworker said the torture was okayed by the white house the department of justice and the cia's had caught is not. you can't ok

torture ok. the us is signatory to the universal declaration on torture the un declaration which says no no circumstances civil war emergencies of any kind exempt a party from the prohibition on torture worse still torture doesn't work no matter what president from says you know i go i was an army officer an infantry intelligence officer i know the drill ok if that's the case why do you think the recent twenty six team pew survey said the u.s. public will kind of divided on this forty eight percent for torture forty eight percent forty nine percent maybe against torture well precisely for the reason that you would use a few minutes ago and that is you said in fairness to jena house bill the media is saying that such and such. please don't quote the major media in fairness to jena

has both the major media is a tool of the deep state of our country and the major media including new york times doesn't publish anything sensitive without checking first with the cia so you know why do americans believe that hollywood t.v. . they've been they've been brainwashed into thinking that torture works and the senate committee report that you mentioned four years in the making issued in december of two thousand and fourteen proves that all these techniques based on cia original documents doesn't work that nothing no actionable intelligence was acquired they could not have and was not acquired by other reasonable normal legal interrogation techniques and are now claims that you case is right now a sharing intelligence obtained under torture the british shadow foreign secretary

and lethal and very writing to the british foreign secretary barnes johnson that this how dangerous would be the practice of sharing intelligence amongst nato nations of intelligence obtained under torture well with all due respect m i five m i six takes their cue from cia and the americans i mean what more do you need to use but ambassador craig murray in east on he's in receipt of interrogation reports we which he knows on the scene are gain from torture ok and he says to the foreign office you know this this really shouldn't be foreign offices are british citizens doing this and he says well if british this is our doing it sure can get in and followed it craig murray quit to his great credit so you get a kind of a bureaucratic inertia here were the americans say it's ok it's so facto it's ok well it's not ok you are at the cia have been you police and my five m i six the

cia or f.b.i. to not use an intelligence file that may have emanated from one of the united states is black sites around the world let's say all that so you want to prove that al qaeda is hand in glove with saddam hussein to help justify a war against. saddam hussein well you know what you can get that from torture we had this prisoner he wouldn't admit that there were close ties between al qaeda and saddam hussein so we sent them to the egyptians a friendly service and guess what they got into it at mit in quotes that yes he sent all manner of operatives up to baghdad to be turned to be trained in explosives and and chemical weapons and guess what that was used by colin powell it is speech before the u.n. on the fifth of february two thousand and three just six weeks before the war to justify what he called the. sinister nexus between al qaeda and

saddam hussein made out of whole cloth whether colin powell was deceived as she claims she was or whether re he was smart enough to realize what was going on that's an open question but it was right from torture and it was the case with the torture works you get people to say what you want them to say it's the only time it works and it only works with inaccurate information. you were of course at the cia under many presidents i wondered what you thought or made of the fact that the britain's new home secretary sajid javid says the secret lists of people from m i five should be circulated in civic society to intervene on people to combat everything from isis to russia what he would do you think of that idea of secret lists secret lists you know what i remember about secret lists or one of the nazis came into the netherlands for example and each mayor had

a secret list in those days it was on paper ok the names of all the citizens including their religion ok now the mayor's with some conscience destroyed those lists before the nazis get a hold of them the ones that wanted accommodate they said oh yeah well here are the jewish people right here and those people are taken off immediately to auschwitz and other concentration camps with that's what you get from secret lists those who are bad enough on paper on computer they're really mischievous another proposal he has it's been reported here is the first time this would be able to be done at airports in britain and all ports people who from the security services immigration offices would be able to question people who have arrived who they suspect osp eyes not for being terrorists but for being spies what do you make of that initiative well this is part and parcel of this trick pony and overreaction to. to

terrorist events now what you're going to do is just harass the general public to the point where actual sensible regulations are completely discredited and disregarded it's quite amazing how people have lost all sense of proportion because of nine eleven because of seven seven because of terrorists acts and no one asked why is it always that that they do these things or do they come out of the womb shouting i hate great britain i hate america no it's not that at all look to the causes of the terrorism that's a much cheaper way to stop it and just finally pictures were beamed around the world of you being injured that you know as bulls hearing she says she won't torture people as boss of the cia what sort of would you say would be a chill the chill sent through nato counterparts of secret agencies here in europe

now that she's in langley she was nominated by the president united states donald trump who says torture is wonderful torture works i'm going to do waterboarding and worse now. would trump have picked a person who would say oh no our number do that anymore i did that didn't work when i got there give me a break as for me you know there comes a time we have to take a stand ok if you can stick can't take a stand against torture what can you take a stand that gets i follow a fellow from actually from the west bank from bethlehem his name is east and arabic. stood up against the authorities and he was tortured and i think that actually they killed him at least i escaped that so for ray mcgovern thank you after the break. how has the un's under-secretary general chachi through or followed up his bestselling chronicle of mass murder in india by the british all the small coming up about to of going underground. it's.

going on in kim's own. dunking some of them dozens of them just doing the things on the bus and in that it will hold its own citizens only fools and still small going

on in condolence don't leave them certainly. putting in a system this is. i played for many clubs over the years so i know the game inside i. football isn't only about what happens on the pitch pull the funnel school it's about the passion from the fans it's the age of the super money just kill the narrowness and spending shouldn't twenty million on one player. it's an experience like nothing else i want to because i want to share what i think what i know about the beautiful guy my great so one more chance for. a nice minute.

and you must. be. welcome back all the top diplomats and internationally one of india's most prominent politicians she threw a has been in the news of the charges surrounding the death of his wife the full statement from his lawyers can be found on our website but we can't talk to him about an ongoing court case the former united nations under-secretary general

however can talk about his new book why i am a hindu and he joins me now especially thanks for coming back on the great american great american writer called the dell said the whole decline of the west can be attributed to the failure of pantheism or the loss of pantheism but you say in the new book that the hindu ism can mean no god at all so what is end of us hindus was we really of approaching our understanding of the cosmos which doesn't actually require us to believe in god in the personalized anthropomorphic sense in fact for a thousand years the hindu idea of god was rather like the muslim idea that is that god cannot be given a shame or form a gender shape a bigger part cannot be touched the nude imagine could be an idea could be a spark could be a puff of air we don't know what god is right so a god without qualities is what the hindus worshiped but they realized that in fact ordinary people needed more than that they needed something they could look to they

they needed for example in the b.b.q. a lot. nature worship happened people worship trees and rivers and fire for example so they said no we better have an idea of god that actually do they err by the way the big sages the rashid's the the thinkers and writers i mean you're talking about a religion. about a thousand years into it's existence of four thousand years so that's what i'm talking about and then came up with the idea of god in a more familiar sense issue or a big one but they said since no one really knows what god looks like let's allow people to imagine god as they want and so there are three hundred thirty three million names of god with lots of forms you want to imagine god as a potbellied gentleman was an elephant's head going to show you men that's the image behind us we started the show you want imagine god as an eight armed woman riding a tiger you may do so as well but they're not all they're all merely different manifestations because the human imagination is soon limited so we need to think of

a god that we can worship strictly speaking god in hindu ism is brahman is the spot as spirits that suffuses the cosmos there is everywhere and every one of us is united by the same soul the up woman which is in you which is in me which is in your pet dog which is which is in every living creature and each of each of us find our seven a position where in western religions for example or the abrahamic feeds the body has a soul in hinduism the soul has a body the soul exists it adopts your body your mind for a finite period of time then it discards our bodies and moves on the ultimate goal of the soul is to be able to move into god into brahman and that is what we consider salvation and in the philosophy of course what most critics and

people who praise the book have been talking about and that is. the tolerant version of hindu ism you are given it verse is obviously what has been seen as intolerance associated with the current indian government. you you say that hindu ism clearly accepts the possibility that abrahamic religions ups are all fine judaism christianity and islam some of it on the perhaps the greatest modern hindu preacher who in the late one nine hundred centuries made a very famous speech in chicago to the world parliament of religions said the just as all sorts of rivers flow in different parts crooked and straight into the same sea so also always of worship lead to the same god he said that i'm proud to speak of a feat that has taught the world not just tolerance but acceptance and so profoundly important idea because tolerance we are taught is a virtue but it's ultimately rather patronizing it says tolerance says i have the

truth you are in error but i will mcnally muesli indulge you and your right to be wrong very different except where is except it says much for it says actually i believe i have the truth you believe you have the truth i will respect your truth please respect my truth and by that logic hindu ism is willing to see the merit in every way of worship what it doesn't accept as the clip of any other faith to be exclusively right and it doesn't make any such claim itself hinduism has no equivalent of saying there's only one way of reaching god or salvation it says always are equally valid ok what about what about this criticism of hindu ism that it it is based around the cost class system and oh you tackle the subject even here the very idea of progress is there is hurt somehow by this version of universal acceptance well the thing is as far as a caste system is concerned many good hindus like myself i'd like to think devout

in the us can find plenty of justification for. rejecting caste altogether for saying that this is not it's maybe part of a social construct of the way it has evolved in society as practiced in india but it's not intrinsic to the faith and i can show you as i've done in the book scriptural examples anecdotes from history parables from our our great old epics and other poor honor's which say that you should not pay attention to superficial external distinctions such as caste hierarchy but it's true that many hindus still practice it and particularly when it comes to discrimination against people because of their belonging to supposedly lower caste that is actually illegal in india it's against the constitution where we have an affirmative action program for the so called costs and tribes from the lowest street of society the most the most unfortunate members of our society but discrimination prohibiting people entry into

temples for example on the grounds of their cost that's illegal an action can be taken against you if you practice caste and that's what some would argue it is of a scale of say racism in the united states is the only difference is where is reese is visible castors not you can look at somebody and see that she has no cause to look at somebody else and say he's up to the fact is that that's why cost is eroding with urbanization you know idea of the cost your of the person you're rubbing shoulders with on the bus and with affirmative action the scum of democracy you may be an upper caste person go to an office and take orders from a lower caste woman that's life going too far to say and i know you touch upon this in the book and your previous book that the british entrenched the existing india car system was a way of organizing in people in the colonialism well look the question of organizing the indian people who are going to do this i think attempted other

bearded unable to do but you're right categorize control classify this was important to the. brits and the the map the census the museum were all instruments of colonial domination and showed it and they love him to his and we will use this really can use exactly so they actually did take we had castle we don't have a car system in the rigid hierarchical ossified sense that it became under colonialism so are you against party politicization of religion generally whether it be political islam or political interests that's what i'm against identity politics generally whether you want to keep up political fervor and mobilize voters on the basis of cost of creed of religion i think identity is the least interesting way to organize political contention we should have it's very powerful about ideas we should have arguments about ideology we should be have arguments about economics who's going to do most to give us a better life who's going to improve the education system who's going to defend our

borders better those are legitimate grounds for argument but to say vote for me because i'm hindu or for me because we have the same caste i know it happens but doesn't mean i need to like it i don't and so basically the way the entire hindu religion is organized could be under any political system whether it be capitalism feudalism or communism it doesn't matter it or any of it it shouldn't matter in fact the point is precisely that's true of any society on earth that the win which you organize yourself should be distinct from hindu ism in any case fascist it could exist under fascism yeah but hinduism you see actually seized religion as an intensely personal matter my father would pray every morning very development never obliged me once to join him the idea is that it's everything about religion is between you and your maker or whatever image of form of your me could you wish to worship or not that amount of choice is intrinsic to hindus so that kind of hammer all of that in into some sort of narrow street jacket of uniformity that's not

something that's truly hindu or tall and that's where the political movement called hindutva which is. the ideology of the of the ruling party today and those forces supporting it that dismays me a great deal because in fact you can take such a vast could pay shoes accepting diverse all encompassing religion and reduce it to the team identity of the british football hooligan which is what frankly some of the goons who are the fellow travellers of the into the movement today are doing some studies say that comment on violence is up thirty percent and render modi do you see any signs of optimism in recent months lessening of this identification of hindu with whom. and the hindutva movement central tenets with the ruling of india political the problem unfortunately is that communal and identity politics seems to get turned on and off when it suits those in power when the economics is

doing well they'll talk about that when the government's doing badly they'll turn up the volume as it were of the communal load speak up in order to polarize voters on the grounds of religion so i can't be complacent or even optimistic that that'll stop happening those who are in power today started off very much on the hindutva bandwagon mr modi won the last election with a significant upper layer as it were of economics of saying i will permit willems version or absolutely but but but it's also true that the economics has not been well managed and as a result the country is not as well off as the dreams mr moody and his colleagues manage to sell to the voters the big risk therefore is it may turn around and once again creep up communal sentiment in order to compensate for the deficiencies of their economic performance it worries me well we invite the indian ambassador on to . give a challenge that thank you very much as you are thank you good talking to you and

that's it for the show we're back on wednesday on the eve of arguably the greatest sporting tournament in the world the world cup russia twenty eighteen till then keep in touch with us by social media with your wednesday the birthday of one of the world's greatest ever mathematician the scottish born james bond maxwell and forty seven years of the day the world work up to us lies about vietnam we initially releases from the so-called pentagon papers. seemed wrong. rowles just don't. let me. get to stamp out this day becomes agitated and engagement equals betrayal.

when something you find themselves worlds apart we choose to look for common ground . hello we're here in st petersburg attending the annual st petersburg international economic forum our topic is from the atlantic to the pacific we all know the world is changing we talk about what moves these changes in who's behind. you know world of big partisan movies a lot and conspiracy it's time to wake up to dig deeper to hit the stories that mainstream media refuses to tell more than ever we need to be smarter we need to stop slamming the door on the bats and shouting past each other it's time for critical thinking it's time to fight for the middle for the truth the time is now for watching closely watching the hawks.

the news from moscow this morning donald trump and kim jong owner in singapore right now for the highly anticipated u.s. north korea submits which is hoped will recent spike in tension and uncertainty generally on the korean peninsula coming up. to crowds gather for the opening of the fee for world cup finals in moscow football's biggest tournament kicking off in russia thursday. and a nine year old girl is placed in rehab for her addiction to an online gave my parents found distressing changes in her behavior. and a psychologist take it on for us think videogames are part of our culture now and i think computer games have been around for a long long time our children are losing a little bit of sight.