as involved he was in the house and the senate intelligence committees when all this was going on they're joined at the hip the overseers are not overseers they're over lookers and what they do is kind of take care of people like gina hasbro and instead of requiring her to answer the questions they let her go to executive session but in fairness to gina many people in the mainstream newspapers of record whatever they say say that is the context of the nine eleven and surely you're not suggesting nuremberg rules should apply the f.t. here the japanese own financial times said a hospital coworker said the torture was okayed by the white house the department of justice and the cia's had caught is not put. you can't ok torture ok. the us is signatory to the universal declaration on torture the un declaration which says no no circumstances civil war emergencies of any kind exempt

a party from the prohibition on torture worse still torture doesn't work no matter what president from says you know i go i was an army officer an infantry intelligence officer i know the drill ok if that's the case why do you think the recent twenty six team pew survey said the u.s. public were kind of divided on this forty eight percent for torture forty eight percent forty nine percent maybe against torture well precisely for the reason that you it used a few minutes ago and that is you said in fairness to the jena house bill the media is saying that such and such. please don't quote the major media in fairness to jena has major media is a tool of the deep state of our country and that the major media including new york times doesn't publish anything sensitive without. checking first with the cia so

you know why do americans believe that hollywood t.v. they've been they've been brainwashed into thinking that torture works and the senate committee report that you mentioned for years in the making issued in december of two thousand and fourteen proves that all these techniques based on cia original documents doesn't work that nothing no actionable intelligence was acquired they could not have and was not acquired by other reasonable normal legal interrogation techniques and are now claims that you case is right now a sharing intelligence obtained under. the british shadow foreign secretary and lethal embury writing to the british foreign secretary burns johnson that this how dangerous would be the practice of sharing intelligence amongst nato nations of intelligence obtained under torture well with all due respect m i five m i six

takes their cue from cia and the americans i mean what more do you need to use but ambassador craig murray in east on he's in receipt of interrogation reports we which he knows on the scene are gain from torture ok and he says to the foreign office you know this this really shouldn't be foreign offices are british citizens doing this and he says well if british this is our doing it sure can get in and followed it craig very quick to his great credit so you get a kind of a bureaucratic inertia here were the americans say it's ok it's so facto it's ok well it's not ok you are at the cia how can you police and my five m i six the cia or f.b.i. to not use an intelligence file that may have emanated from one of the united states is black sites around the world let's say all let's see. we want to prove

that al qaeda is hand in glove with saddam hussein to help justify a war against saddam hussein well you know what you can get that from torture we had this prisoner he wouldn't admit that there were close ties between al qaeda and saddam hussein so we sent them to the egyptians a friendly service and guess what they got into it at mit in quotes that yes he sent all manner of operatives up to baghdad to be turned to be trained in explosives and and chemical weapons and guess what that was used by colin powell it is speech before the u.n. on the fifth of february two thousand and three just six weeks before the war to justify what he called the sinister nexus between al qaeda and saddam hussein made out of whole cloth whether colin powell was deceived as he claims he was or whether read he was smart enough to realize what was going on

that's an open question but it was right. from torture and it was the case with the torture works you get people to say what you want them to say and it's the only time it works it only works with inaccurate information. you were of course at the cia under many presidents i wondered what you thought or made of the fact that britain's new home secretary sajid javid says that secret lists of people from m i five should be circulated in civic society to intervene on people to combat everything from isis to russia what he would do you think of that idea of secret lists secret lists you know what i remember about secret lists or one of the nazis came into the netherlands for example and each mayor had a secret list in those days it was on paper ok the names of all the citizens including their religion ok now the mayor's with some conscience

destroyed those lists before the nazis get a hold of them the ones that wanted accommodate they said oh yeah well here they are the jewish people right here and those people are taken off immediately to auschwitz and other concentration camps with that's what you get from secret lists those who are bad enough on paper on computer they're really mischievous another proposal he has been reported here is the first time this would be able to be done at airports in britain and all ports people who from the security services immigration officers would be able to question people who have arrived who they suspect osp eyes not for being terrorists but for being spies would you make of that initiative well this is part and parcel of this trick pony and overreaction to . two terrorist events now what you're going to do is just harass the general public to the point where actual sensible regulations are completely discredited and disregarded it's quite amazing how people have lost all sense. of proportion

because of nine eleven because of seven seven because of terrorist acts and no one asked why is it always that that they do these things or do they come out of the womb shouting i hate great britain i hate america no it's not that at all look to the causes of the terrorism that's a much cheaper way to stop it and just finally pictures were beamed around the world of you being injured at jena as balls hearing she says she won't torture people as boss of the cia what sort of would you say would be a chill the chill sent through nato counterparts of secret agencies here in europe now that she's in langley she was nominated by the president you know the states donald trump who says torture is wonderful torture works i'm going to do waterboarding and worse now. would trump picked a person who would say oh no and i'm going to do that anymore i did that didn't

work when i got there give me a break as for me you know there comes a time we have to take a stand ok if you can stick can't take a stand against torture what can you take a stand that gets i follow a fellow from actually from the west bank from bethlehem his name is isa in arabic . stood up against the authorities and he was tortured i think that actually they killed him at least i escaped that so for rima goven thank you after the break. as the un's under-secretary general she threw our followed up his bestselling chronicle of mass murder in india by the british empire all this more coming up about two of going underground.

in the. congo the kids seem compensate oh boy deny them by the. people in the group on something because. it's not. going to. get the kind of. move on which i'd written on the good show about the movies because of course i'm listening to nicholson to be a good show which the certainly must through. his lawyer does not so much but the will suffice it is a cause of if he was asleep you must see a million years. the legacy coal guys are the winners the legacy oil guys are the winners the legacy old

central bankers are the winners innovation you dynamism the constitution the bill of rights these are the losers in this america. cut. cut. cut. good. night. sleep anything it'll. be those who don't consume don't tell you that it doesn't do it on joking dealing with this thing i'm done forcing in that are equal in its own systems under what he calls a stance make that connection don't cause i don't believe then suddenly i'm the old

mule they've got to those. this is a. welcome back for the top diplomat and internationally one of india's most prominent politicians schieffer or has been in the news over charges surrounding the death of his wife the full statement from his lawyers can be found on our website but we can't talk to him about an ongoing court case the former united nations under-secretary general however can talk about his new book why i am a hindu and he joins me now as he thanks for coming back on the great american great american right it will be del said the whole decline of the west can be attributed to the failure of pantheism or the loss of pantheism but you say in the new book that india isn't can mean no god after all so what is the end of us

hinduism is we really of approaching our understanding of the cosmos which doesn't actually require us to believe in god in the personalized anthropomorphic sense in fact for a thousand years the hindu idea of god was rather like the muslim idea that is that god cannot be given a shame a form of gender shape a bigger part. cannot be touched see nude imagine could be an idea could be a spark could be a puff of air we don't know what god is read so a god without qualities is what the hindus worshiped but they realise that in fact ordinary people needed more than that they needed something they could look to a they needed for example in the basic iran lot of nature worship happened people worship trees and rivers and fire for example so they said no we better have an idea of god that actually boozer they care by the way the big sages the rich she's the the thinkers and writers i mean you're talking about religion. about

a thousand years into its existence of four thousand years. so that's what i'm talking about and then came up with the idea of god in a more familiar sense issue or a big one but they said since no one really knows what god looks like let's allow people to imagine god as they want and so there are three hundred thirty three million names of god with lots of forms you want to imagine god as a potbellied gentleman with an elephant's head going to show you men that's the image behind us the start of the show you want to imagine god as an eight armed woman riding a tiger you may do so as well but they're not all they're all merely different manifestations because the human imagination is soon limited so we need to think of a god that we can worship strictly speaking god in hindu ism is brahman is this a spirit that suffuses the cosmos there is everywhere and every one of us is united by the same so will the up woman which is in you which is in me which is in your

pet dog which is which is in every living creature and each of each of us finds our seven a position where in western religions for example or the abrahamic faiths the body has a soul in hinduism the soul has a body the soul exists it adopts your body your mind for a finite period of time then it discards our bodies and moves on the ultimate goal of the soul is to be able to move into god into brahman and that his is what we consider salvation and in the philosophy of course what most critics and people who praise the book have been talking about and that is. the tolerant version of india is a given it verse is obviously what has been seen as intolerance associated with the current indian government. you you say that hindu ism clearly accepts

the possibility the abrahamic religions ups are all fine judaism christianity and islam so weak on the perhaps the greatest modern hindu preacher who in the late one nine hundred centuries made a very famous speech in chicago to the world parliament of religions said the just as all sorts of rivers flow in different parts crooked and straight into the same sea so also always of worship lead to the same god he said that i'm proud to speak of a feat that has taught the world not just tolerance but acceptance and so profoundly important idea because tolerance we are taught is a virtue but it's ultimately rather patronizing it says tolerance says i have the truth you are in error but i will make none of mostly indulge you and your right to be wrong very different except where is accepted says much for it says actually i believe i have the truth you believe you have the truth i will do so.