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hello and welcome to cross up where all things are considered i'm funeral of well all across the western world the so-called melting pot is melting down immigration legal and illegal is probably the most contentious and divisive issue energizing voters in italy for example the right and left have united on the issue in germany the government may collapse and trump has made this his signature cause can the status quo be sustained. cross talking immigration i'm joined by my guest john laughlin in paris he's a historian and specialist in international affairs and we have roland benedict or he is the co-director of the center for advanced studies of eurex research and in her god that we have niemeyer he is

a german journalist and author all right gentlemen cross talk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciated and i think go to john first and paris and i just kind of kick this whole discussion off by an observation i've had over the last few weeks and months particularly with the events going on in the united states it appears that virtue signaling his replaced policy and debate because all we're supposed to do is to think emotionally about this and not use our heads and i think this is what the establishment media and establishment parties want us to think that way to address this issue and if we stop birches signaling maybe we could come up with some solutions your thoughts john. well there's a lot of propaganda involved isn't there i mean we've just seen in the events on the mexican border these very propaganda. pictures of children a supposedly being separated from their parents i'm sure your viewers will remember the picture of the poor little kurdish boy on a turkish beach the dead body of

a little boy he was a victim of the migration crisis and the broadcast of his photo was used to elicit sympathy for the plight of migrants and it worked very well but when boy of the same age was killed in a terrorist attack in barcelona the policy was not to show his dead body out of respect for him and for his family so we can see that these images are being used to drive a political agenda and that is the problem the problem is that this immigration is being driven by a political agenda it is being driven by a political agenda of european states who are demographically weak the demographic pyramid is inverted there are more old people the young people and for many years and decades now economists and policymakers have decided that in order to rectify this demographic problem in europe we need immigration we need to bring in people from outside in order to pay our pensions and that is the immigration issue. and as

long as that ideology remains in place as long as the ideology is believed by these people as it is most notably in germany then i'm afraid the problem will continue ok roland you know thing is that this this is approach with open borders but if you believe that there are open borders then there are no borders to defend i think that's the paradox of what's happening in the western world you want to have open borders let people come in but then you can't defend your border when it's necessary go ahead roland. well. look there is no starts saying like a little political entity or a community without borders never in history and unique borders wide because you have to find the limits of what needed to be a few laws and that is what the left the school at frankfurt school you're going to must says what their system series says so borders to some seeing good or not

something better when we had the in europe. city kids. very strongly left their story into it political correctness really believed in politics on new phoenician of identity and as for example descending group that ended the excelled of the european consortium on political research and in brussels would say today is that we need to define our identity as europeans much more in our european way right and in a less exaggerated cosmopolitan way because we can't live without borders because if you have no borders you have no rule of law and order finish and you know where you lost the valley and we're not ok let me go to you i mean ok we have a lot of consensus here the media is for open borders the political classes for open borders but you know what the voters aren't for open borders and we're seeing it in election after election i mean isn't it time that democracy be recognized

again in the european union i mean we have the austrians we have the italians we have also a new car i could use term fifth column in germany right now that it's waking up to what voters want to and they're running on these issues go ahead ralph. yes of course it is true that bordeaux myth i must say of medicine i am calling myself a bastard sign is at stake because it has not worked out fine and be left behind those people who already live in our country and we need to not take care of the refugees had nothing to do with the fact i do pathogens them up good enough anymore as was due to privatization of the pension scheme or that of a true statement good enough or that the rent is too high for apartments those are not due to the refugee crisis but it came up with that people are realizing that ever left behind and they said hang on

a minute foreign us i'm as well so this is but a leftist made a key mistake in the recent yes and especially given two thousand fifteen happened mrs merkel once and called it a decision said be a shock unless you are going to manage it down and people said why don't we manage with ourselves first of course there's a right wing nationalistic. parties are coming up because they take voter sentiment serious leftist to do that and especially to. have failed completely and that they stood amount of border like. there were no borders and no states which is of course the true there are states and beneath states of course and otherwise we have a mickey no one wants to live in i know you must think does this also go brainstormed america government because she lost control yet but john you know the the interesting thing is that with these waves of migrants or asylum seekers who

are never term you want because it seems to me most of them that's majority of for economic immigrants here but you know they don't really come in on the layer jets do they to germany they don't mean they don't fly into airports they kind of walk through the continent you know that's what makes me feel really bad for the. greeks and the italians ok i mean if germany wants those people fine with it's not being done the right way even according to e.u. law that's ok so i mean the germany can now be the the decision maker of immigration in europe that is intensely and i democratic and against the rules of the european union go ahead john you know there's no doubt that the rules are being broken because indeed germany by saying that a million refugees are welcome and then by trying to offload them onto other members of the european union worlds indeed breaking refugee law and breaking the european union's own rules that's for sure i'm in strong agreement with what roland

said about borders and the need to protect them but i have a different conclusion i disagree that this is a european problem and indeed i think that the or that this can be solved with european measures and i think that the the reflex position of european leaders which is to say that we need to european solution to this problem is precisely wrong it is precisely the fact that we have a european union with a borderless internal space the showing an area which has caused the migration problem in the first place i first visited the song at camp near cali in the late one nine hundred ninety s. the migration crisis that we're talking about now didn't start in two thousand and fifteen it started in the one nine hundred ninety s. when italy joined the schengen zone and from that moment onwards the borders of the mediterranean were on the english channel yeah and it's there is

a direct relation of cause and effect and what we saw in two thousand and sixteen after hungary and creation and the other countries built fences to close off the balkan route is that national solutions are the ones that solve this problem not european ones and we are now i hope seeing the same result. with the italians who are taking matters into their own hands nationally defending their national territory and it's only by doing that with because they have that the navy they have the ability to do it that their solution will end prior to the imposition of national solutions have it was and it's a very bad structural problem in the e.u. it was that countries would simply let the migrants in like greece and italy and then send them north to germany in other words they were there were bigger the neighbor policies which is a structural problem in the you so i think we need to finish with this idea that the solution is european the problem is european role in the the arguments that the left in the media have made is that it's already been mentioned this program think

it was you demographics the need the need for workers new workers but i mean looking at the evidence i don't see a lot of these migrants particularly since two thousand and fifteen are employed across the european union they do take state benefits and in most of the country the european union have austerity so you have very large youth unemployment so why the same poles to keep bringing in more people and less it just cheap labor go ahead roland. you know this is. especially if we can go count the current trend to work out some of the station. large parts of the traditional labor force especially blue collar workers will be dismissed over the coming years and unfortunately more. to europe do not have an indication do not have any change of qualification. a recent study of.

a ministry of labor. that it was very difficult to qualify more than twenty to twenty five percent of all coming over the coming years to get a job and you track the job acceptance rate employment rate of migrants and refugees is very. lol so this is a problem and this is a myth. to being dismissed because it will always less correspond to the truth but let me just say something to my previous speaker. in many ways of his opinion that we need a dramatic change in immigration policy because we cannot go on like this and i think more and more europeans have shunned us to as the recent elections although book europe have shown ok. gentlemen i have to jump in here we're going to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on

immigration stay with our kids. get a phone no i don't have what was the last time that you went on the internet you know i am not used to these village is it safe people. are you sure there is no extremism terrorism there and they're all going to be sure that the baby does a class of his so the. question we're going to look for. is the death as part of those who contributed.

to the work i was. previously. yes they are being formed in a very useful member of this was like do. you let. us. most people think to stand out in this business you need to be the first one on top of the story or the person with the loudest voice of the biggest race in truth to stand out in the news business you just need to ask the right questions and demand the right answer.

questions. welcome back across the uk where all things considered i'm peter bell to remind you we're discussing immigration. ok let's go back to roland you want me right before we do the rick you want to finish your point please do. you know i just wanted to say that i am not in this same opinion in one crucial point which is i think we need more european not less through europe to solve to crisis and i give you a practical example today we have to harmonize the as the laws and it is the most urgent issue to solve today it is possible that a migrant that is not accepted in one country for example in germany can just switch country and restart applying in another country for example it needs france and if you doesn't succeed kiyoshi doesn't succeed there they just switch on and go

further we have to how nice their laws to accept and see because we have to harmonize to reduce duration and of course we have to harmonize that the collaboration of secure the country so the regent for example germany has the clear parts of afghanistan a secure country and doesn't accept the salem sea because they just sweep streets a leak in their accepted because italy has not declared parts of afghanistan to secure so we have urgently to find transnational european solutions for these problems otherwise we will not be able to stop the crisis ok i just can see in paris john is really disagree let me go to ralph well quickly it seems to me that roland you want to create the united states of europe and everything to date shows that's not what people want no one ever asked the europeans if they ever wanted that route let me go to you are not a very important issue there isn't being brought up here and this applies to the

united states and europe is that there are criminal gangs making a fortune off of this. scam ok bringing people in there and g.e.o.s. you know the do gooders but no they're blinded by ideology they're there pat they're ideologically possessed they have a hatred for their own culture a hatred for europe they want to just wipe it away and fill it up with foreign alien people i'm sorry to sound so politically incorrect but that is true particularly the criminal gangs in the south of the mexico and south of in the mexican border and all through the mediterranean you have a lot of people preying on some very weak people and i'd like to point out also that it's often forgotten the people that do want to immigrate to the united states and to europe they should stay in their own country and build their own country ok and set of having the west have to subsidize them in their own country where they left ok that's a lot said right there go ahead ralph. yeah but i do agree to a certain extent because i once raised the question that even the press conference

with mrs merkel and she made the same mistake that many people do it also in our discussion here not that we mix migration issues that are you know to uphold the asylum the right of assad which is a human right and we have to uphold to those who need it we cannot make stuff like aggression now what i do agree with is that what we see at the moment at the mexican border is probably a step up by deep state or by some people who want to make mr trump act mr trump was not on here for because he remembers what happened to two this is murder of a tree suddenly the refugees coming in and that is what's advertised as the bucket route by the media now at the beginning of this year sometimes i watched a program on c.n.n. there was a colleague on the report a colleague on the on a bus tour from central america to work study. us border and reporting from it and advertising it kind of saying i would as a way to go to the united states of course you can instigate you know and obviously

it's the trump is facing because no i'm not. crying children and parents being abreast of all that i don't think he wants to see that. snow in fact they want to carry him up with red tape like to do with mrs merkel and the only two times only covered in the last twelve years first one decision was part of the magic process and she pumped billions into banking banking system saving banking systems the second decision she made during the twelve year reign was in two thousand dean to say ok these people sleeping on a train station stick and car but after that she lost control and. or right wing parties and left to make a mistake especially in germany i see the. uncertainty sentiments of people we are able to take many more acutely so it's not a problem because we are a rich country but we have to take care of people who are already in germany first

and then we can say we. purposed but asylum should be obviously separate from that because there's no limit to that that's a human right you know john and there are a lot has been said since you last spoke there and i can read your mind this far away that more europe is not the solution juxtaposition when our friend roland had to say go ahead john. yes i wanted to come back to that point in response to the question you asked about the economic rationale you rightly put your finger on the paradox that immigration is justified economically because it keeps wages down and gives a supply of cheap labor and so on but that in reality of course many of the migrants end up being out of work and in any case there's a lot of youth unemployment in europe by asking that question peter you have highlighted the point i made in my first answer namely that the ideological reasons that i referred to which are european are not motivated by economic good sense we

can have a debate about. whether or not you need cheap labor britain by the way is an economic model for that because britain has imported millions of low cost workers from poland and romania since two thousand and four and we've seen the effects of that on the economy an increase in g.d.p. and a collapse in productivity but that's not what's driving the immigration ideology it's it's precisely not economic rational it is instead ideology you know it's important to recall that one of the founding fathers of the european integration is movement richard from couldn't move in one nine hundred twenty five called for the races of europe to be mixed with other bloods for the european race to be mixed with other bloods in order to create a new european of the future he had a sort of racialist if you accept the other way around from the nazis wanted to racial mix city racial diversity and this idea which he first published in one

thousand nine hundred five he's a big figure he was the first president of the of the council of europe for example this idea remains alive today in the minds of european leaders particularly incidentally german ones. now president of the. for many years the german minister of finance said in an interview indeed site in two thousand and sixteen that if we didn't have migrants and we kept them out then europe would descend into incest he used the word incest and similarly the german president york in the dark said we needed migrants to get rid of the idea that me being german means being white and being christian so there is a very clear ideological drive here to inject new populations into europe in order to change the structure of those populations and that is part of the european dream it's part of the post national europe but just goes very very. that's why when

europe is not the how would that make europe better i don't get it ok. i travel through europe all the time i don't see it's improving i see it's declining rapidly go ahead finish up john peter peter the bolshevik revolution didn't make russia better but that didn't mean that people didn't believe in it they believed in it because it's an ideology it's a post national ideology which these people want to implement by replacing the population in their crazy minds that's what they're doing ok we're all in it you know italy has been hit very hard by this immigration crisis we can use that word i mean shouldn't italy on its own be able to decide what happens with inside its borders i mean why is it waiting for merkel ways and waiting for brussels why is it waiting for this summit that's going to happen in the weekend i mean italy's a sovereign country care it should take care of its people first particularly the unemployment a bit so you think it's critical right now go ahead roland at

a tally and have to decide for themselves go ahead well i did that is exactly what is happening now after the last elections of march for we have the biggest issues to do right ever in. you know world war two history need to lead and in fact the new government is blocking ngo ship saying they're not democratically controlled the new government is seeking that but there's a patient of spain and he's putting merkel especially in german chancellor under strong pressure to find a new current solution only solution is needed in europe is to control the out of borders we have to retake control as being council president on the ball and stay there ready to go and for it we have to regain control of four of the borders yellow whatever that's what about it i'm sorry all right what about italy's borders what about italy's borders isn't that the first thing you should be

thinking about first and italians or it is. the sad thing is that in this point you are absolutely right it really is forced to take control over its own borders many more or less alone why i give you an example from which you still fishel agency of border protection in europe is based in washington and teaches four hundred four collaborators to protect the whole of. europe and has total budget of two hundred eighty one million which is one hundred of work germany alone spent a year for the refugees which is a disproportioned that cannot be upheld weir's known portion that yeah that's an understatement my friend is that's an understatement ok now at the amazing let me go to rouse here i mean ralph if we could put put aside all the ideology and all the virtues signaling what so what some concrete things to do in the united states

i think there should be built a wall then there won't be any children torn from their parents ok it won't happen what can you hear or do as a first step in your mind a practical step. but i hope i don't progress for a moment i know how it is to live on that island surrounded by a wall and we don't want to see walls anymore but i understand that in the united states it's a different start and of course the wall that we had to keep people from falling from dare come in to a country so it's a bit different of course to compare those two was generally i think to be better ways now we as europe. commonly discuss how we can bank live better in countries where of migrants have to leave the country because a lot said the second point is the kind of course and prove things in those countries by negotiating to do your in partnership agreement of africa spent a lot of time on africa at the moment and you know obviously you know. we're almost

out. time but one thing the west could do is stop bombing those countries so these people won't flurry ok that would be a first good practical step we've run out of time gentlemen many thanks to my guests and parents hold on though and we've got to end thanks to our viewers for watching us here darkie see you next time and remember. when a loved one is murder it's natural to seek the death penalty for the murder i would prefer it be in the death penalty just because i think that's the fair thing the

right thing research shows that for every nine executions one convict is found innocent the idea that we were executing innocent people is terrifying is just no way that doesn't mean that we want even many of the times families want the death penalty to be abolished the reason we have to keep the death penalty here is because that's what murder victims' families what that's going to give them peace that's going to give them justice and we come in and say. not quite you know we've been through this this isn't the way. i played for many flips over the years so i know the game and so i got. the ball isn't only about what happens on the pitch to the final school it's about the passion from the fans it's the age of the super money kill you know the owner spend spend be true to the twenty million player. it's an experience like nothing else on

the. because i want to share what i think of what i know about the beautiful guy great so well with. and thinks he's going to. more than three hundred world and russian managers architects visionary stuff the largest international congress on the development of madison july seventeenth twenty second serratia park business program interactive exhibition urban pass the details on forum dot com. this summer is a crushing defeat on day eight of the world cup in russia losing three nil to croatia the game's already been dubbed the biggest upset of the total and so for. people not many countries.