talk about no fly just need right after the mars explorers were moved out of their new. tool to rock. to sit well below. zero to alice room welcome to sophie and co i'm so see shevardnadze said today we're got lots to talk about in our program and our guest is. good luck little.

hello and welcome to crossfire where all things are considered i'm funeral of well all across the western world the so-called melting pot is melting down immigration legal and illegal is probably the most contentious and divisive issue energizing voters in italy for example the right and left have united on the issue in germany the government may collapse and trump has made this his signature cause can the status quo be sustained. cross talking immigration i'm joined by my guest john laughlin in paris he is a historian and specialist in international affairs and we have roland benedict or he is the co-director of the center for advanced studies of research and her god that we have niemeyer he is a german journalist and author all right gentlemen crosstalk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciated and i got to john first in paris and i just kind of kicked this whole discussion off by an

observation i've had over the last few weeks and months particularly with the events going on in the united states it appears that virtue is signaling his replaced policy and debate because all we're supposed to do is to think emotionally about this and not use our heads and i think this is what the establishment media and establishment parties want us to think that way to address this issue and if we stop birches signaling maybe we could come up with some solutions your thoughts john. well there's a lot of propaganda involved in that i mean we've just seen in the events on the mexican border these very propaganda. pictures of children a supposedly being separated from their parents i'm sure your viewers will remember the picture of the poor little kurdish boy on a turkish beach the dead body of a little boy he was a victim of the migration crisis in the broadcast of his photo was used to elicit sympathy for the plight of migrants and it worked very well but when boy of the

same age was killed in a terrorist attack in barcelona the policy was not to show his dead body out of respect for him and for his family so we can see that these images are being used to drive a political agenda and that is the problem the problem is that this immigration is being driven by a political agenda it is being driven by a political agenda of european states who are demographically weak the demographic pyramid is inverted there are more old people the young people and for many years and decades now economists and policymakers have decided that in order to rectify this demographic problem in europe we need immigration we need to bring in people from outside in order to pay our pensions and that is the immigration issue. and as long as that ideology remains in place as long as the ideology is believed by these people as it is most notably in germany then i'm afraid the problem will continue

ok roland you know thing is that this this is approach with open borders but if you believe that there are open borders then there are no borders to defend i think that's the paradox of what's happening in the western world you want to have open borders let people come in but then you can't defend your border when it's necessary go ahead roland. well. look there is no starts saying like a little political entity or a community without borders never in history and unique borders wide because you have to define the limits of what we did see a few laws and that is what the left the school at frankfurt school you're going to must says what their system series says so borders to some seeing good or not something better when we had the in europe. city kids. very strongly left their story into it political correctness really believed in politics

on new phoenician of identity and as for example descending group that ended the excelled of the european consortium on political research and in brussels would say today is that we need to define our identity as europeans much more in our european way right and in a less exaggerated cosmopolitan way because we can't live without borders because if you have no borders you have no rule of law and order finish and you know where you lost the valley and we're not ok let me go to you i mean ok we have a lot of consensus here the media is for open borders the political classes for open borders but didn't know what the voters aren't for open borders and we're seeing it in election after election i mean isn't it time that democracy be recognized again in the european union i mean we have the austrians we have the italians we have also

a new car i could use term fifth column in germany right now that it's waking up to what voters want to and they're running on these issues go ahead ralph. yes of course it is true that bordeaux myth i must say of medicine i am calling myself a best as i know is at stake because it has not worked out and be left behind those people who already live in our country and we need to not take care of the refugees had nothing to do with the fact i do pathogens them up good enough anymore as was due to privatization of the pension scheme or that of asia good enough or that the rent is too high for apartments those are not due to the refugee crisis but it came up with people are realizing that every left behind and they said hang on a minute foreign us on as well so this is but a leftist made a key mistake in the recent yes and especially given two thousand and fifteen

happened mrs merkel once and called it a decision said be a shock unless you are going to manage it down and people said why don't we manage with ourselves first of course there's a right wing and nationalistic. parties are coming up because they take voter sentiment serious leftist to do that and especially to examine baptists have failed completely and that they stood amount of border as like. there were no borders and no states which is of course not true there are states and beneath states of course and otherwise we have a mickey no one wants to live in i know you must think those of us all to go bring style and american government because she lost control yet but john you know the the interesting thing is that with these waves of migrants or asylum seekers who are never term you want because it seems to me most of them vast majority of for economic immigrants here but you know they don't really come in on layer jets do

they to germany they don't mean they don't fly into airports they kind of walk through the continent you know that's what makes me feel really bad for the. greeks and the italians ok i mean if germany wants those people fine with it's not being done the right way even according to e.u. law that's ok so i mean germany cannot be that the decision maker of immigration in europe that is intensely and i democratic and against the rules of the european union go ahead john you know there's no doubt that the rules are being broken because indeed germany by saying that a million refugees are welcome and then by trying to offload them onto other members of the european union worlds indeed breaking refugee law and breaking the european union's own rules that's for sure i'm in strong agreement with what roland said about borders and the need to protect them but i have a different conclusion i disagree that this is

a european problem and indeed i think that the or that this can be solved with european measures and i think that the the reflex position of european leaders which is to say that we need to european solution to this problem is precisely wrong it is precisely the fact that we have a european union with a borderless internal space the showing an area which has caused the migration problem in the first place i first visited the song at camp near cali in the late one nine hundred ninety s. the migration crisis that we're talking about now didn't start in two thousand and fifteen it started in the one nine hundred ninety s. when italy joined the schengen zone and from that moment onwards the borders of the mediterranean were on the english channel yeah and there is a direct relation of cause and effect and what we saw in two thousand and sixteen after hungary and and the other countries built fences to close off the balkan

route is that national solutions are the ones that solve this problem not european ones and we are now i hope seeing the same result. with the italians who are taking matters into their own hands nationally defending their national territory and it's only by doing that with because they have the the navy they have the ability to do it that their solution will end prior to the imposition of national solutions have it was and it's a very bad structural problem in the e.u. it was that countries would simply let the migrants in like greece and italy and then send them north to germany in other words they were there were bigger the neighbor policies which is a structural problem in the you so i think we need to finish with this idea that the solution is european the problem is european role in the the arguments that the left in the media have made is that it's already been mentioned this program think it was you demographics the need the need for workers new workers but i mean looking at the evidence i don't see

a lot of these migrants particularly since two thousand and fifteen are employed across the european union they do take state benefits and in most of the country the european union have austerity so you have very large youth unemployment so why the same poles to keep bringing in more people and less it just cheap labor go ahead roland. you know this is. especially if we can go count the current trend to work out some of the station. large parts of the traditional labor force especially blue collar workers will be dismissed over the coming years and unfortunately more. to europe do not have an indication do not have any change of qualification. a recent study of. a ministry of labor. that it was very difficult to qualify more than twenty to twenty five percent of all coming over the coming years to get

a job and you track the job acceptance rate employment rate of migrants and refugees is very. low so this is indeed a problem and this is a myth and then he's partly to be dismissed because it will always less correspond to the truth but let me just say something to my previous speaker. in many ways of his opinion that we need a dramatic change in immigration policy because we cannot go on like this and i think more and more europeans have shunned us that is as the recent elections although book europe have shown ok and i gentlemen i have to jump in here we're going to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on immigration stay with our kids.

when a loved one is murdered it's natural to seek the death penalty for the murder i would prefer if we know when the death penalty just because i think that's the fair thing the right thing research shows that for every nine executions one convict is found dennison the idea that we were executing innocent people is terrifying there's just no really hasn't been that we want even many of the times families want the death penalty to be abolished the reason we have to keep the death penalty here is because that's what murder victims' families want that's going to give them peace that's going to give them justice and we come in saying. not quite you know we've been through this this isn't the way. president because he has case this store of value and that will continue until the

price reaches the equilibrium point let's call it a hundred thousand proclaimed or you'll be seeing it. used as a medium of exchange some point that becomes a unit of account as things are priced and that quite has money disappears. was. maybe going back because i did not know you're going to. feel that god.

welcome back across the uk where all things are considered i'm peter bell to remind you we're discussing immigration. ok let's go back to roland you want me right before we went to the rick you want to finish your point please do. you know i just wanted to say that i'm not in this same opinion in one crucial point which is i think we need more european not less europe to solve to crisis and i give you a practical example today we have to harmonize the as the laws and it is the most urgent issue to seoul today it is false little that a migrant that is not accepted in one country for example in germany can just switch country and restart applying in another country for example in the province and if you doesn't succeed.