welcome to worlds apart it's often said that the united nations is only as good as its member states allow it to be but what happens when those numbers state deliberately start to act up institution itself its legacy the synergies that create pool for the whole is greater than the sum of its parts while to discuss that i'm now joined by the united nations secretary general until this secretary general first of all let me welcome you here in moscow it's great to see you thank you very much for your time let me start with congratulating you on the portugal victory over. the did you have a chance to watch the game yes i watched the game and let's be clear we won the game but we didn't play very well exactly and that's what is your letting me into my next question because according to that game starts tomorrow for a better across the board in terms of the possession of the ball in terms of the

shots shots and targets etc but they still lost and i wonder if. you often see this kind of dynamic of the united nations when that country puts up a good game but the final score is still northern it's favorite movies happens all the time not only everywhere i mean i remember in football in the past so we sometimes are the very good teams in the rules lose the games and say we won morally i think yesterday we have lost morally but at what's better this is. not in football but in the context of international relations what is essential for countries to be able to come together and to face the global challenges we have today the challenges the understanding that we cannot do it alone one of the multilateral organizations and we need multilateral governance and you need international picking of the biggest most influential player in the midst of the united states from which just recently from the human rights council i understand that the optics of bed and. very positive but in actual terms what kind of

a fallout do you expect from that well of course i would strongly prefer they said since of is the first moment that united states would stay in the human rights council i believe human rights a text that is a very important element in the un human rights is one of the pillars of united nations and i hope that. so little later sooner rather than later the u.s. will be able to come back but as i said i strongly believe that in today's world we need multilateral responses and they're american side they're both criticism and bias as their reasons for their walk out and the united nations security council certainly is not the only body to criticize either israel or the united states for that matter i wonder if you have any concerns at all whether that kind of president could be repeated and if the united states can pull out from the united nations altogether acceptable i mean let's let's be clear the united states plays a very important role in the when i say it is

a founding member like the russian revolution carillon once again what is so weird also and of course is to be out of one or two areas that are more i would say the other thing is to be of course involved in the sensitivity reaches of the well and i believe these will go on more true believer that when one looks at united states and the russian federation those two countries have in many aspects common interests sometimes they are fighting but they have common interests and if we look at the middle east that is the area that we have been that was mentioned the about this decision the global middle east in this area where i'm strongly believe that the geostrategic interests of the humanity the united states and the russian federation a lot and i want to on the contrary well seems that. similar and i strongly hope that the divisions that have existed of the countries will be overcome and that the two countries will be able to have a strong cooperation a lowing the. international system to work there is no way in which an

international system like always can work with corporations between the two most important super bowl let me ask specifically about the reason cited for the american the walkout these allegations of bias are certainly not me i'm sure you have heard the russia china syria many other countries make similar claims after unfavorable votes but none of them ever walked out of the council simply because i think most of them realize that they're not limited to one single issue the value of the council is broader do you take this american patrol to mean that the united states at this moment of time doesn't care about anything else about israel no look . the u.s. position as a whole has been the same the us was all it's done it's can mean no it's going all to game which means that there is a balance in the american public opinion and in the american institutions the going on the party that is the balance of the party that is in the show in different

attitudes in addition to the human rights council so i don't think we should generalize these i think this is a very specific area where we have always seen the u.s. . position in position to position in so let's hope that in the future the u.s. will come back now speaking about the nature of that criticism i know that the. war and poverty alstom has just submitted airport to very critical of trump's president tax overhaul claiming that it overwhelmingly benefited the wealthy and worsened inequality and i wonder if that is perhaps a little bit too personal it's one thing to criticize any given country's track record and another thing to. bash individual president's policies before it was actually fully implemented we have. several things you have the u.n. secretary that you have the different. namely the significance of the general assembly human rights calls. and then you have special reporters that act

independently and at present very ports criticizing country zealand they're on the most difficult issues which of course do not necessarily present the position of the un and in its entirety my position on these as always been very clear i sink it is better to do it or was taking the country into account and not personalize ing seeings in the un with a very strong concern in the us it's we need to be impartial and we need not to politicize issues to treat them based on the truth and based on the charter of the united nations that i then suggesting that certain people of within the u.n. all went against your direct advice because if i if you let me to quote that report it specifically pointed out that the policies pursued over the past year seem deliberately designed to remove basic protections for from the course it seems like a fairly targeted. shot especially set forth by special rapporteur that is independent it's it's an opinion that of course needs to be taken into account can

see that but doesn't represent the position the formal position of the u.n. but. you know there's a very delicate issues because i'm sure you would agree with me that the position of the american president of president trump at this point of time his actions are crucial for the future of the organization and he is known as somebody who is very sensitive and sometimes very reactive. to the crisis and. do you think that kind of statements are wise in the current environment i don't think it will be. the reason for any crisis in my way of doing scenes different people that sings in different ways my way to do seem to do my job is not to personalize and to do seems based on impartiality and objective analysis of situations but of course people are different to that we have and i think it's important when you have independent reports on these kinds of issues to respect their independence that doesn't mean the. we subscribe what we say but we respect the independence because if not

everyone then will be manipulated and does of course with completely undermine the respectability of those independence borders that are an important component of the international community but of course as i said independents are seeing the u.n. secretary it is enough now let me ask you about one more issue that's a lot in the news today that you are yourself weighed in and this is the trumpet ministrations that immigration policy particularly. the practice of separating children from their parents who cross into the united states illegally mr trump has just thought to reverse that policy by his executive order and i wonder whether u.s. secretary general have really understood how this man functioned so what can possibly persuade him to change his mind asking just did on the immigration i don't think we should personalize things i think we need to look at the policies that this policy has. had a big labor is a relative lots of impact on how do you and us policy was published was to say that

in my opinion debt is not a good thing and that my experience as i commission for refugees is always that two separate families is something that's going to have very negative consequences for the people and then of course for the society in general and i'm glad that the policy will be if you first see that many other actors in the international community in the in the u.s. politics including in the family. express their opinion as i said let's the best way to be active in my opinion is not to personalize is to look into sinks objectively and if you do it in a way that is in passionately if you do it in a way that is objective i think that's the best way to convince people to do the right thing well let's try to look at it impartially. tranced policy is usually couched in moral terms but i think there is a very real legal dilemma there. it is not good in any way to set. children from their parents but i think it would also agree that the united

states is entitled and has the right to prosecute people who cross into its territory illegally so i wonder whether the here and more humane way would be to put those children in jail together with their parents or perhaps to brando's parents and waiver from prosecution simply because they happen to be parents the countries of the right to have their own migration policy but migration policy is need also to respect human rights migration policies in the management of borders and it's also to be protective sensitive namely the respect the international refugee law i myself am against the nation of someone just because someone entered not legally in the country you see refugees as no other chance to escape but to cross the border that that not in a legal way so i'm not in favor of a policy of our three minimization but as i said i recognize countries have the right to define their own migration policies what is important is that they do it

in respect to human rights to human dignity because migrants are also human beings that need to be can see that and respect it's absolutely and we would all do our best for our children but i think i mean i don't represent fox news here but i think it is important to recognize that they are not talking about the you know serial mothers fleeing for their life we are talking about mexican mothers and fathers who try to find a better future for their kids for their living vibrant developing country so. i'm portuguese. in the sixty's. when million five hundred thousand portuguese left the country at the time walking into france. and they were basically moving because of poverty and basically because they wanted a better life no it doesn't mean that. i think everybody should do it but i have a lot of respect for people that. in the case of them it's rainy and put their

lives at risk crossing the mediterranean with the escalation to provide for their children a better life than the one they could have so again. i am totally against smuggling people but i have a deep respect for the people that try to do something to come out of. laws. and. that is more people killed in these countries by the different gangs that operates in the syrian war so we are in situations that are sometimes desperate which means that in these flows of people you have people that fleet only because of economic reasons but we have also people that have been victims of persecution so again counties have the right to be found their policies countries have the right to send back migrants but all there needs to be that in respect for the basic human rights and for the dignity of people now

migration is obviously a very contentious issue not only in the united states but also in europe which used to be as you just pointed out more welcoming towards migrants an error that let me tell you something about my question my mother is ninety four years old is not a very serious you know my mother is ninety four years old i visit my mother when i go back to portugal every month and she is always one person taking care of twenty four hours by twenty four hours independently of the family and i've never seen a portuguese taking care of my buddy. and in most of the country you have fertility indexes of one point two one point three one point four make addition is also necessary what is this what is needed in my opinion is to recognize the need to organize it with interest to avoid these illegal migration to organize migration to create opportunities for illegal migration taking into account of states and the answers of people we need to look at migration as a normal scene in which states need to have the responsibility toward denies them

properly instead of leaving to these desperate situation to to flee because there is nothing that is not in place to a lot for normal flows that take into account the needs of countries of origin and the needs of countries of this nation secretary-general i had a chance to interview i think it was four years ago when you were your high commissioner for refugees and you said pretty much the same thing that migration has to be managed and balanced in the four years that have to do you think the countries have learned how to do it in a balanced way there and that is the problem we have today i think i was right four years ago and i'm still right and the fact that this is not being seen. is creating the chaotic situation that we see in many parts of the world which by gratian became the issue the issue in many electoral campaigns and because of that you see populists country six and of populist part of these movements and others are gaining ground in many countries if regulation we manage properly in respect for

the answer of the countries but also the interests of the people i see these would not be the issue that is driving the politics in so many countries now one of the reasons why. keeps on increasing and we're now having record numbers of more than sixty eight million people being displaced globally one reason those are displaced by conflict or by conflict and cetera simply that the number of those violent conflicts is now the highest in thirty areas the number of people killed in those conflicts has recent tenfold since two thousand and five. usat makes conflict prevention and mediation all the more important and i would think that the united nations is there the most natural of ben your for that why is it not more successful in mediating on this track of you know normally when we are successful nobody notices but i'll just give you an exam they really mean that they are your age as well as give you an example there was an actual election in liberia and the election liberia was contested as you know when there was a problem where the results would be recognized or not i've sent one of our members

of our level panel of mediation that was there in the day talking to the two candidates to make sure that they would accept the results and that there would not be a disturbance as we have seen in many other parts of the if there was a problem to go to the courts and whatever we are now doing the same in mediation to go the african union and. that we ever done the same in. this quickly in sierra leone and which means there are lots of achieve that we are me the a to get the present moment doing our best to avoid a dramatic battle for the city of. recognize that this valley layering know what is difficult and the reason is very simple volitions is the world became less clear i remember the cold war i remember a uni polar world now the world is kind of chaotic it's moving hopefully into a multi-polar world and i'm a strong defender of the idea that the world should be organized in a multi-polar way but today we have a chaotic world in put it to believe impunity is the name of the game you see lots

of vectors i mean how many armies are there now fighting inside syria for example it's very difficult to mediate in these circumstances but every. wonder is and more to make prevention. but i already have priorities to evidencing to the rest of the cause of conflict to create the conditions for communities not to create the level of tension that leads them to conflict but you are absolutely right we are far from being sick. because these well know use of the sequel to all the complex worlds where we have a multiplicity effect in the multiplicity of spoilers creating a vulcan so many ideas with the enormous suffering of the people well secretary general let us take a very short break now we will be back in just a few moments stay tuned.

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welcome back to worlds apart with the secretary general antonio t.x. secretary general it's been about the year and a half since you took this position from the very beginning you were faced with this challenge of diminishing american presence both in financial terms and some would say moral terms and i assume that led you to rely more on other actors and other players hasn't worked out did other have other players that bag game. in the light of american. diminishing. strong support of the sort of the multiple of the world so i think independently of what to do noted states we need to be able to promote circumstances in which the multiplicity of victims are more and more relevant here means early release they don't need to see is that you see more of war come through in the context of united nations and that is very much welcome from me independently of the position of united nations the united states i

mean fortunately into a lot of united states of english and to the key financial commitments of the maintain their position that as i said this you said some pretty full areas where the u.s. has left but to the center all aspects the u.s. has meant independently of that it's important to have a multi please to effect entities that equilibrium that's a loss for us to be more impartial and body sectors given how important the united states still is both to their funding and their running off and i'm sure as secretary general your had to run through several contingency plans i wonder in your planning whether you see this change poster of the united states as something temporary that may change too or at let's say six years down the line or is it a permanent change as. it's important to recognize first of all that we have been able to maintain with us a working relationship the best of that nikki haley has been extremely constructive

in addressing the difficulties that we face are real and if the latest statement. sounds talking about so you know she has made that talking about solutions with the secretary and the solution of the problems of the might of course you're right there's of their own political positions on many issues i'm not talking about that talk about the constructive relationship with the secretariat i think we have managed to have a constructive relationship and we want to keep it but as i said we we need to have a waltz and the united nations in which many actors. together creating an environment of impartiality and equilibrium where of the world or united nations or whatever only dependent on one or two countries is not a good thing while i know you have long argued against the u.s. as disengagement from global affairs and i wonder if disengagement is the right word because from my point of view it's not that the trumpet ministration is not engaging i think it is engaging in very unorthodox ways for example take north korea we've just witnessed the first ever historic meeting between the two had to

stay but it came after you know essentially tittering on the brink of a war if you are very seasoned diplomat what do you think about this kind of approach to diplomacy well let's be honest. what can be one of the most important success stories. addressing a complex. conflict situation seoul we can criticize when we can criticize but i must say that the recent summits that took place in singapore is a remarkable achievement and i congratulate to to me that's that had the courage to do it in circumstances that were complex of course there were lots of. episodes before but even during these episodes i remember very well the eye. of the six countries i thought all of us you know there is a six part. of the six i've sent to my other secretary general on political affairs at the time jeffrey feltman to pyongyang exactly with you object is to try to

prepare the conditions for this kind of the a lot to be possible which means that if given the heat of the conflict it was possible with the agreement of all for the wind to play a role trying to create the conditions to bring people together that's all well i don't know if hero heard that but mr trump also suggested that if you can apply this kind of personal diplomacy to russia for example ask president putin to get out of syria or ukraine and i don't know about here i would be a little bit nervous about where that conversation can leave and i want to ask you what do you actually think about the current state of the u.s. russian relations given the presence the very massive presence of navy in their own thread is that president putin recently and i said to both the same namely russia into the situation with all the middle east in the in syria my belief that i have said this already to the interests of russia and united states in the middle east. and that's in my opinion it's extremely important for the future of the middle east that the two countries come together and have a common strategy and. i mean it is always easy and i understand that from the

point of view of the media it's much better if you have big fights but from the point of view of the world it's very important that countries are able to come together to overcome their divisions and to understand that their common interests especially in these world where terrorism became so dangerous their common interests are more important than the difference is that he said that russian and american common interest in syria overlap somehow and there are grave doubts and grave concerns in this city about the united states may be moving towards creating some sort of partition in syria. i'm sure you heard john bolton the and national security advisor to. advocating the creation of the so-called sunni which with comprise certain parts of syria and iraq what do you think about this idea. even if it has a chance to bring i he said that he had the opportunity to talk both with americans and russians on this issue and one saying that i believe is absolutely essential is to preserve the territorial integrity of syria and other countries in the region to

to try now to do some kind of new psych speak will in my opinion would be a suicide move now there are certain issues that are absolutely essential to. a legacy one of them is the palestinian territories it was the united nations after all which ratified the partition of the palestine which allowed for the creation of israel alongside an arab state the promise that was never granted and i think that is now actively sabotage do you think the palestinians still have a reasonable hope of seeing their own state and when and be more moral more honest to tell them you guys go and build your life somewhere else no i don't think does it that is acceptable i am a strong supporter of the two state solution i don't think that is a thing it's realistic i don't see that there is a plan b. i think that to abandon it is not realistic because to abandon it was to condemn territory to

a kind of confrontation in which the consequences would be absolutely devastating happened look at what happened recently in gaza let's not make sure let's make sure that this doesn't this does this become the situation in the whole area the two state solution might still be possible if we overcome the present divisions to abandon that idea in my opinion is a huge risk and i don't seeing that. we can conceive that the two state solution should be abandoned or the american administration they aren't american mr is serious about the to state solution i not sure about anybody i'm sure about what i believe i am a strong believer that the two state solution is essential because a one state solution would mean what. everybody would have a say in their the state are for. kassab been in existence for a century or two states a school i don't think is possible to be maintained never an easy to know nothing exists on the in the world and i believe is not to maintain sets of spoiled rich

people suffer and in which the risks for peace and security are there at any moment i think i would roll east to overcome these states and create a stable peaceful solution where two peoples are able to leave together in respect for their homes to go to the secretary general and we have to leave india i really appreciate your time today and i'm glad our viewers to keep this conversation going in our social media pages and hope to syriana same place same time here but also part of. our.

general phone no. one was the last time that you went on the internet no i am not used to these village is it safe. are you sure there is no music series there and they are all going to be sure the baby does a class of his that is the. question we're going to move for is of death as part of the photos so could be. a. bit more work than i was. previously. yaz. being born in a very good member of the society. six

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