and that it's mainly now the africans that come under pressure internationally when we get involved to resolve problems because if he is the mantra that africans solutions for african problems is a very good sound bite but in theory but in practice we not allowed to practice it . so as you have put it when your military kompany executive outcomes was operating the media was highly critical often calling it illegal or claiming its soldiers it people you said that lost the media war but most of your operations were conducted in secret why was the media war so damaging for you well first of all the media at that time in particular was used by the south african government and the south african intelligence services to create certain perceptions specific sions very nice history in order to hide what they were actually doing and that was supporting so-called rebel forces in various places in africa and of

course entry into those conflict zones i do huge impact on not only economic interest but also a very personal interest and the media really just became a useful idiot as far as they were concerned if it did major problems for us yes we would can see crissy but invariably any type of operation that anyone gets involved in eventually does end up with the media and the media with a for used as a two in order to counter us and to. try and create a certain impression about us which was entirely false in some cases he said that the pressure on your clients to governments to didn't share or services would come from places like the pentagon or the united nations for instance why didn't those are going to say shows appreciate you solving their problems for them. i've always

been of the opinion that as soon as conflicts and organizations such as united nations and numerous n.g.o.s or non-government organizations no longer have active role to play. i say ending conflicts but they phoned a guy throws they play in africa plus what we were doing was obviously impacting on certain very deceptive foreign interests that we have being practiced on this continent like what well it had to do with the mining of diamonds a tad to do with go to to do with oil. and all those natural resources of this city high value from oddities. would currently needs commodities and africa is a great place to find it as long as there are conflicts on the go to deals can be struck with governments in order to get hold of these resources in use so why would the forces prefer to conduct business with rebels rather than rigid

legitimate governments well obviously the rebels don't test to provide any taxation to the mines resources within the areas and often the rebels are really just used as a proxy force in order to destabilize a country and replace a certain government that's not compliant enough with the wishes of those outside driving these actions you were grossly under the radar can you imagine a situation in which governments will hire pam says openly without the fear of being compromised or well has always be an undercover type of trait. no. it's ironic that waste in pm sees and lately i've noticed russian pm seize up writing with the blessing of the governments in africa many of them are being funded by their own governments. it is a problem as soon as we get involved in trying to resolve

a conflict and we find that drop the hypocritical. at the end of the day if a government chooses to make use of us that is the prerogative of the government. problem how it is that we have to beg for a contract and have a state funded us with private military companies up writing on the phone and are sponsored by the un governments the governments dearly have a choice either by money to contract us this accord assistance and support they've aust for free they usually go the free boot and often they live to regret that. you know after some mercenary leaders strike their hand at military coups like the case of some calmer austin seychelles equatorial guinea yeah can you blame governments for being an easy about working with pay and cease. i think you for government has contracted to p.m.c.

directly and that p.m.c. follows the laws of that country and that it puts itself under the jurisdiction of those on forces governments have no reason to fifty mc infect every time we have we integrated with the forces where we are training we live with him we share the same food as they do we live in the same type of environment they live in and we mentor them in the field. in those instances we are directly responsible for the men that the government to spiced and drown the money if the p.m.c. comes in and isolates themself and one side of a military complex refuses to integrate with the troops or comes in and is obvious that what they are training is totally irrelevant i think that governments do have a need to be concerned as to what's going on but we believe if the government pays us for assist that's the safest way to live it we don't take shortcuts and i'm

mission is usually to end a conflict this because post not to prolong it there's a whole heap of private military contractors working and he was wars across the middle east and apart from blackwater which rebranded its way out of scandals their work goes i know it just why did you have a different experience what is it that sets you are paying say apart from those who are working for instance in afghanistan. well first of all we are an african company we are stuffed by africans we have based in africa and therefore we are not necessarily viewed as an ideal choice both foreign governments to use we've never worked in the middle east so we cannot really comment on the fissions the or lack there of the pm seeds but those pm sees operating in the middle east are funded by the host governments and not by the country where they're working and it creates

a bit of a di lemma and in the same state they are regarded as people that are doing their jobs and where is we are regarded as the bad guys in the story. i have to mention that we have yet to come across an african on me try and buy foreign p.m.c. or indeed foreign forces that have been well trained and prepared for their mission opinion is that most african on me is being set up to fail by the foreign the emcees foreign on forces of foreign advises that they make use of why is there a certain private military companies now i mean is it cheaper for a government to just put chris more people into the regular army than pay more scenarios double or triple of what a seller makes. well i i think this being. in requirement for private military companies given the unstable. international arena that to be on live in i

think and as instability grows it's become much easier to outsource certain services to private entities also look at the cost of maintaining a large standing army and then i look at africa in particular where is the doctrines that are used by many african on means in the troops are trained in those doctrines are really doctrines that are totally relevant to africa and they would doctrines that were designed to by the germans joining world war two when it comes to waste and time doctrines to fight the old soviets in europe and those types of things are totally. irrelevant as far as africa is fronts and and then of course there is the ability of many african governments to buy their own equipment because that buys do that all of these things become money wasted and they have a lot of equipment and manpower that actually i built to function coherent and to

defeat an on threat against that government so do you see this trend of hiring private military companies. continuing more fair be eventually privatized and outsourced p.m.c. . i don't think it will eventually be outsourced in total i think national ami's are still there to protect the integrity of the state and the territorial integrity of the countries. given the. the road that many proxy forces are currently playing in africa and the size of these proxy forces and the way in which they're equipped i think it's a government's prerogative to be called on any hope they take and if they feel they need that help to defeat these on states they're facing but that said i don't think that national army as well it has ceased to exist and i think that's a correct type of p.m.c. stuff by the creative people who understand the culture with operating in and the

type of environment and certainly add value to the oppression efficiency of any african on me but if that can happen in theory for instance imagine what would be the dangers i mean when medieval mercenaries fought wars for italian cities they'd stop the fighting deliberately to make more money so if this goes on whatever is going on today we'll have an industry with a vested interest in war does that mean that the use of p.m.c. is will cause more wars in the future. well i think all wars are really based on mostly economic interests and secondly i don't think that. p.m.c. that france it itself to be profession is going to hire itself out in feature the highest but of course that danger does exist and that's why we have always been of the opinion that private but it to companies should be regulated and that they

should act in accordance of the laws of those countries where they're operating and . i cannot see private military companies taking over the defense industry in total it's saying but i do foresee a time when private lity companies are simply going to go for the biggest budget and that's because many of them unprofessional. to see how long they can actually produce on a conflict or a war because the longer that goes on the more money they make for themselves i don't think however that within the type of environment that we operate governments are concerned and our o. because they understand what we do and we understand where they need to be going said hugh that seems to not be the case in many countries. mr barlow we're going to take a short break right now one more battle continue talking with a been lying low the founder of executive outcomes talking about private armies and

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a private military company discussing what this war business is like so eight from the united nations are powerful governments bait in the form of special forces training or direct military involvement always comes with conditions your work was offered strictly for money nothing else why aren't the governments around africa excited about that well first of all of course we with money we have study released by his family's defeat. we have travel expenses we have insurance we have made to that extent we cannot do what we do for free. governments in africa often do speak just and in fact we regular contact with several of them. the irony about all of that is all that they wish for us so this is continually threatened that if they make use of us it will be to their disadvantage and these are threats from beyond africa and it really just is proof to us that

a stable and secure africa is to be in very few people's interest. i heard you say that some powerful countries like the united states dislike your successes were their own special forces had failed why do you think you know was better aren't they government trained special forces day ultimate weapon i mean all your men are also career government trained soldiers will. i cannot speak on behalf of the us but we do know that the us does not like it when we operate in africa and they have their own reasons for that they can do you need to look at a special forces soldier is not a soldier that can be used in any environment within any sort of military context is a very particular road. view is always being to train soldiers. identify the enemy to be able to think the enemy make use of the terrain the and this is

very very to right now they cannot be a single approach to ending a conflict or a war and we go through a huge process of analyzing the type of environment we working in because our mission is always very clear from a government in the conflict this quickly as possible. and that is exactly what we set out to do so we had depth things we changed things. i like to think very mentally fixable and agile in order to read situations and predict and preempt what he's going to be happening male alys who flew missions under your command he once said that the enemy in places like sierra leone or for instance was rubbish can the success of pm ses like yours be attributed to the fact that the enemy is usually just very weak. i think when he needs to understand the mindset of these enemies there are different types of enemies there are sometimes just bags that

have got weapons and because of that they perceive themselves to be in positions of power and usually they are but i think when we come to countries like syria leon and i this. is armed forces have had several years of training from waste and on these in particular and their training is incredibly poor when you put half a poorly trained on me against a bunch of on thugs who have over time generated confidence and belief in themselves. the military usually performed dismally. in in sierra leone what the government was told by a foreign advise it would take six weeks to do come to in two days. and it's not necessarily always the enemy with the threat that struck me it's just being able to think it out maneuver him and then to destroy him on the battlefield. now you said that you are often given minimal reins to accomplish your mission what is minimal

means a couple of guns and mortars how is it possible to get that results in a short time with minimal minimal minutes it sounds like a recipe for disaster to me actually well it's very difficult to work with the many many means. if i can just take you back in a more recent situation where you were in nigeria we had two gunship helicopters that were modified they were really second and helicopters and we had one dedicated gunship very few states we didn't have enough vehicles we didn't have enough in direct fire support such as motors although everyone at small arms and there were some machine guns. it then becomes a matter of being able to utilize a unique doctrine and to rely on speed i think the enemy and to preempt what he's

going to do but in order to achieve that we need intelligence so we have to focus on if it's on gathering intelligence identifying the enemy's intentions and then actually preventing him from implementing his intentions we've never been in a position where we've had. too much equipment in fact i think very few national bees have too much equipment but we have really had to work sometimes with a very minimal of equipment and then he's in terms of our means. but because of that we have learned to overcome certain obstacles in our both and really i think in outmaneuver an enemy in general how do you think wars in africa are different from a war south where at lark outtake on your continent. that i think was in africa . different austria from other wars and although there are some similarities to them i think first of all we have to look at why these wars are started and often

they are not started by armies testart and by the strength todo disillusion groups of people and those groups of people. sometimes transition into a proxy force and and then supported by outside forces in terms of finance or in terms of equipment or in terms of training. but i also think the environment in which we operate is vastly different from else way you know we operate from jungle type to rain desert type terrain and everything in between as well and then i think we need to look at the the manpower itself where is there is nothing wrong with the african so jane fact is a very good soldier if you strictly trained and late. but many of these soldiers are really put it trained and they then suffer from. something that most on

me suffer from in the world and that is in adequate command and control and when you combine all of those elements together it becomes a very different type of war we have to operate across large tracts of land with no infrastructure. we often have no a support as it's we have no way in which directly move troops. it might be one or two helicopters but those helicopters of very stretched in what they can do and what they particular missions on. in africa we have to adept constantly to what's happening and then add to that the type of environment and terrain we're operating in. he said that you hire people of all races and that sometimes you work with people that he has to fight against how does that work inside a team i mean can you rely on your a former enemies when things start to go wrong well. one has to look at where not when i made that comment that was made in

executive outcomes was in operation and despite everything the media claimed about the south african defense force it was a multi-racial army so many of our fighting men came from mainly black units and i saved in one such unit that they were men i trusted to night with us and we've we've had the same type of background in so far is the just want it to be it was prince and we had many business from the african national congress is doing the m.k. which apply to join us and those that had the correct profile and had the correct experience and knowledge we accepted into a country or a company rather. the bottom line is we work as a company and as a team and everyone has a part to play in that team regardless of what his political leanings might be but

we don't go out and hire people who we've actually opposed on the battlefield. in more recent times although we have members in our company that come from numerous african countries everyone knows that when we would we would get as a unified team and we have a unified go to achieve on behalf of the government to assist not a problem of distrusting the people with us we know we can trust them we've worked with them and they know what is expected of them. now you believe that only africans can solve africa's problems are you saying that if foreign forces including un peacekeepers withdraw from africa the continent will finally have peace and prosperity i firmly believe that idea africans can solve africa's problems. i think we need to have a look at who is. driving a lot of the crime which is taking place and i'm speaking of whether it be traunch

national crime organized crime in terms of resource stripping the resource base that is the main cause of many of the problems we have in africa. i think that the un forces are bloated. in other words totally oversized and the budgeted in terms of what they gave because they successes on that many. usually when we have brought about a situation within a conflict with the enemy or with the state decides to negotiate the first people to russia know the un who then damone dow departure and as soon as we depart they forces said miska let out of control as do their budgets. i can use sierra leone as an example eighteen thousand men to replace what two hundred men did at an astronomical budget quote don't think that he's really looking at the interest the best because but i do think that africa has

a large amount of responsibility for the problems it finds itself in as the continent's leaders have allowed themselves to be. mis advised and in many instances this missed this message by as custom very seriously. but i do believe that many of these foreign forces if you go north you to solve problems but to ensure that the problems continue. therefore i believe that i knew we can solve a problem. thank you very much for this and for a topical to even barlow the founder of executive outcomes private company officer of executive outcomes against all odds talking about the truth behind the mercenary wars that is it for this edition of surfing call i will say next.

f.o.c. . in the heart of the swiss alps this is a place probably more secretive than the pentagon more mysterious than the cia guarded them for knox. is controlled by the monday impose the opening time so if. it is from his office the procedures in place of the strictest in all europe must of pieces by artists like picasso and modigliani i can't boards and sold inside this warehouse that's where the report comes in it covers a deals which are naturally discreet commercially discreet but also discreet

because they concern fraud. some of those paintings are linked to dark secrets. nobody knows how many of these secrets kept inside the geneva freeport. in the freeport who knows how many there are three hundred three thousand three hundred thousand it's a matter of confidentiality only. the our business.

football coming up top teams portugal and spain are playing in their group. with. i. mean time england. sixteen of the world cup. rollercoaster. and away from the.