calling it illegal or claiming it's soldiers eight people you said that lost the media war but most of your operations were conducted in secret why was the media war so damaging for you well first of all the media at that time in particular was used by the south african government and the south african intelligence services to create certain perceptions specific sions were very nice history in order to hide what they were actually doing and that was supporting so-called rebel forces in various places in africa and of course entry into the. conflict zones and a huge impact on not only economic interest but also a very personal interest and the media really just became a useful idiot as far as they were concerned. major problems for us yes we worked in secrecy but invariably any type of operation that anyone gets involved in

eventually does end up with the media and the media with a for used as a two in order to counter us and to. try and create a certain impression about us which was entirely false in some cases he said that the pressure on your clients to governments to do it sure or services would come from places like the pentagon or the united nations for instance why didn't those are going to say shows appreciate you solving their problems for them. i've always been of the opinion that as soon as conflicts and organizations such as united nations and numerous n.g.o.s or non-government organizations no longer have active role to play. i say ending conflicts but they phoned a guy throws they play in africa less what we were doing was obviously impacting on certain very deceptive foreign interests that we have being practiced on this

continent like what will it take to do it the mining of diamonds attack to do with go to to do with oil. and all those natural resources of this city high value commodities. that would currently needs commodities and africa's a great place to find it as long as there are conflicts on the go to deals can be struck with governments in order to get hold of these resources in use so why would the forces prefer to conduct business with rebels rather than rigid legitimate governments well obviously the rebels don't test to provide any taxation to the mines resources within the areas and often the rebels are really just used as a proxy force in order to destabilize a country and replace a certain government that's not compliant enough with the wishes of those outside

driving these actions you were closely under the radar can you imagine a situation in which governments will hire pam says openly without the fear of being compromised or well has always be an undercover type of trait. no. it's ironic that waste in pm sees and lately i've noticed russian pm caesar uprighting with the blessing of the governments in africa many of them are being funded by their own governments. it is a problem as soon as we get involved in trying to resolve a conflict and we find that rather hypocritical. at the end of the day if a government chooses to make use of us that is the productive of that government. problem how it is that we have to beg for a contract and have a state funded us with private military companies up writing on the phone and a sponsored by the un governments the governments treaty have

a choice either by money to contract us well get this accord assistance and support they've aust free they usually go the free boot and often they live to regret that. after some mercenary leaders strike their hand at military coups like the case of some calmer austin seychelles equatorial guinea yeah can you blame governments for being an easy about working with pay and cease. i think you for government to scrunch active p.m.c. directly and that p.m.c. follows the laws of that country and that it puts itself under the jurisdiction of those on forces governments have no reason to fifty m. c. in fact every time we have we integrated with the forces where we are training we live with him we share the same food as they do we live in the same type of environment they live in and we meant to them in the field. in those instances we

are directly responsible for the men that the government to spiced and draft a month if p.m.c. comes in and isolates themself and one side of a military complex refuses to integrate with the troops or comes in and is obvious that what they are training is totally irrelevant i think governments do have a need to be concerned as to what's going on but we believe if the government pays us for assist that's the safest way to live it we don't take shortcuts and i'm mission is usually to end a conflict this because this post not to prolong it there's a whole heap of private military contractors working and he was wars across the middle east and apart from blackwater which rebranded its way out of scandals their work goes i know it just why did you have a different experience what is it that sets your pay him say apart from those who

are working for instance in afghanistan. well first of all we are an african company we stuff by africans we are based in africa and therefore we are not necessarily viewed as an ideal choice both foreign governments to use we've never worked in the middle east so we cannot really comment on the fissions the or lack thereof of the pm seeds but that is pm sees operating in the middle east are funded by the host governments and not by the country where they're working and it creates a bit of a di lemma and in the same state they are regarded as people that are doing their jobs and where is we are regarded as the bad guys in the story. i have to mention that we have yet to come across an african on me try and buy foreign p.m.c. or indeed foreign forces that have been well trained and prepared for their mission opinion is that most african on these are being set up to fail by the foreign the

emcees foreign on forces of foreign advises that they make use of why is there a certain private military companies now i mean is it cheaper for a government to just let chris more people into the regular army then pave where some areas double or triple of what a seller makes. well i i think this being. in required for private military companies given the unstable. international arena that to be on live in i think and as instability grows it's become much easier to outsource certain services to private entities i will say look at the cost of maintaining a large standing army and then i look at africa in particular where is the doctrines that are used by many african on means and the troops are trained in those doctrines are really doctrines that are totally relevant to africa and they

were doctrines that were designed to by the germans joining world war two when it comes to waste and time doctrines to fight the old soviets in europe and those types of things are totally. irrelevant as far as africa is france and and then of course there is the ability of many african governments to buy their own equipment because that buys to do that all of these things become money wasted and they have a lot of equipment and manpower that actually i bow to function coherent and to defeat and on threats against that government so do you see this trend of hiring private military companies. continuing more fair be eventually privatized and outsourced. i don't think it will eventually be outsourced in total i think national ami's are still there to protect the integrity of the state and the territorial integrity of the countries. given the.

the road that many proxy forces are currently playing in africa and the size of these proxy forces and the way in which they're equipped i think it's a government's prerogative to be called on any hope they stay and if they feel they need that help to defeat these on states they're facing but that said i don't think that national army as well it has ceased to exist and i think that's a correct type of p.m.c. stuff by the creative people who understand the culture with operating in and the type of environment and certainly add value to the oppression efficiency of any african on me but if that can happen in theory for instance imagine what would be the dangers i mean when medieval mercenaries fought wars for italian cities they'd stop the fighting deliberately to make more money so if this goes on whatever is going on today we'll have an industry with

a vested interest in war does that mean that the use of p.m.c. is will cause more wars in the future. well i think all wars are really based on mostly economic interests and secondly i don't think that. p.m.c. that france it itself to be profession is going to hire itself out and feature the highest but of course that danger does exist and that's why we have always been of the opinion that private but it to companies should be regulated and that they should act in accordance of the laws of those countries where they're operating and . i cannot see private military companies taking over the defense industry in total it's saying but i do foresee a time when privately to companies are simply going to go for the biggest budget and that's because many of them unprofessional. to see how long they can actually

produce a conflict or a war because the longer that goes on the more money they make for themselves i don't think however that within the type of environment that we operate governments are concerned. because they understand what we do and we understand where they need to be going said hugh that seems to not be the case in many countries. mr barlow we're going to take a short break right now when we're battle continue talking with a bang marlo the founder of executive outcomes talking about private armies and of course they fight stay with us.

you know world a big partisan group a lot and conspiracy it's time to wake up to dig deeper to hit the stories that mainstream media refuses to tell more than ever we need to be smarter we need to stop slamming the door. and shouting past each other it's time for critical thinking it's time to fight for the middle for the truth the time is now for watching closely watching the hawks. has become quite fashionable in the political left to call anyone you don't like a nazi or hitler why is it come to this why all the demonization after all words have meaning and much much more on this edition of crossfire. seemed wrong. wrong just don't call. me. yet to stamp

out disdain comes to advocate and gain from it because betrayal. when so many find themselves worlds apart we choose to look for common ground. they were bad weather even barlow the founder of executive outcomes a private military company discussing what this war business is like so eight from

the united nations or powerful government speight in the form of special forces training or direct military involvement always comes with conditions your work was offered strictly for money nothing else why aren't the governments around africa excited about that well first of all of course we with money we have said there is . the same lease deceit and we have travel expenses we have insurance we have made it that except that we cannot do what we do for free. governments in africa often do speak just and in fact we and regular contact with several of. the irony about all of that is all that they wish for us so this is continually threatened that if they make use of us it will be to the disadvantage and these are threats that it midnight from beyond africa and it's really just just proof to us that a stable and secure africa is to be in very few people's interest. i heard

you say that some powerful countries like the united states dislike your successes where their own special forces had failed why do you think you know was better aren't they government trained special forces day ultimate weapon i mean all your men are also a courier government trained soldiers. well. i cannot speak on behalf of the u.s. but we do know that the u.s. does not like it when we operate in africa and they have their own reasons for that they can do you need to look at a special forces soldier is not a soldier that can be used in any environment within any sort of military context there's a very particular row. view is always being to train soldiers. identify the enemy to be able to think the enemy make use of the terrain that and this is very very terrain that they cannot be a single approach to ending a conflict or

a war and we got through a huge process of analyzing the type of environment we working in because our mission is always very clear from a government in the conflict this quickly as possible. and that is exactly what we set out to do so we have depth things we change things. i like to think very mentally fixable and agile in order to reach situations and predict and preempt what he's going to be happening. male alys who flew missions under your command he once said that the enemy in places like sierra leonean for instance was rubbish can the success of pm ses like your speech are a bit to the fact that the enemy is usually just very weak. i think when each to understand the mindset of these enemies there are different types of enemies there are sometimes just bags that have got weight buttons and because of that they

perceive themselves to be in positions of power and usually they are but i think when we come to countries like syria leon and i this. is armed forces have had several years of training from waste and on these in particular and their training is incredibly poor when you put up a poorly trained army against a bunch of on thugs who have over time generated confidence and belief in themselves. the military usually performed dismally. in in sierra leone what the government was told by a foreign advise it would take six weeks to do we have come to in two days. and it's not necessarily always the enemy with the threat that struck me it's just being able to think it out maneuver him and then to destroy him on the battlefield . now you said that you are often given minimal reins to accomplish your mission what is minimal means

a couple of guns and mortars how is it possible to get that results in a short time with minimal minimal minutes it sounds like a recipe for disaster to me actually well it's very difficult to work with the many of the means. if i can just take you back in a more recent situation where you were in nigeria we had two gunship airlift copters that were modified they were really second and helicopters and we had one dedicated gunship read very few states we didn't have enough vehicles we didn't have enough in direct fire support such as motors although everyone at small arms and there were some machine guns. it then becomes a matter of being able to utilize a unique doctrine and to rely on speed i think the enemy and to preempt what he's going to do but in order to achieve that we need intelligence so we have to focus

on if it's on gathering intelligence identifying the enemy's intentions and then actually preventing him from implementing his intentions we've never been in a position where we've had too much equipment in fact i think very few national bees have too much equipment but we have really had to work sometimes with a very minimal of equipment and then he's in terms of our means. but because of that we have learned to overcome certain obstacles in our both and really i think an outmaneuvered an enemy that in general how do you think wars in africa are different from a war south where at large chaotic on your continent. that i think was in africa. different austria from other wars and although there are some similarities to them i think first of all we have to look at why these wars are started and

often they are not started by all means testart and by the struggle do it disillusion groups of people and those groups of people and sometimes transition into a proxy force and of the in supported by outside forces in terms of finance or in terms of it but mental in terms of training. but i also think the environment in which we operate is vastly different from else way you know we operate from jungle type to rain desert type to rain and everything in between as well and then i think we need to look at the the manpower itself where is there is nothing wrong with the african so jane fact is a very good soldier if you strictly trained and late. but many of these soldiers are really put it trained and they then suffer from. something that most on me suffer from in the world and that is in adequate command and control and when

you combine all of those elements together it becomes a very different type of war we have to operate across large tracts of land with no infrastructure. we often have no a support estimates we have no way in which directly move troops. it might be one or two helicopters but those helicopters of very stretched in what they can do and what they particular missions on. in africa we have to adept constantly to what's happening and then add to that the type of environment and terrain we operating in . so you said that you hire people of all races and that sometimes you work with people that he has to fight against how does that work inside a team i mean can you rely on your a former enemies when things start to go wrong. when he has to look at where not when i made that comment that was made in

executive outcomes was in operation and despite everything the media claimed about the south african defense force it was a multi-racial army so many of our fighting men came from mainly black units and i saved in one such unit that they were men i trusted to night with us and we we had the same type of background in so far is the it was sponsored we had many members from the african national congress is doing the m.k. which apply to join us and those that had the correct profile and had the correct experience and knowledge except it into country oh it just company rather. the bottom line is we work as a company and as a team and everyone has a part to play in that team regardless of what his political leanings might be but we don't go out and hire people who we've actually opposed on the battlefield. in

more recent times although we have members in our company that come from numerous african countries everyone knows that when we would we would get as a unified team and we have a unified go to achieve on behalf of the government to assist not a problem of distrusting the people with us we know we can trust them we've worked with them and they know what is expected of them. now you believe that only africans can solve africa's problems are you saying that if foreign forces including here and peacekeepers withdraw from africa the continent will finally have peace and prosperity i firmly believe that idea africans can solve africa's problems. i think we need to have a look at who is. driving a lot of the crime which is taking place and i'm speaking of whether it be traunch national crime organized crime in terms of resource stripping the resource base

that is the main cause of many of the problems we have in africa. i think that the un forces are bloated. in other words totally oversized and the budgeted in terms of what they gave because they successes on that many. usually when we have brought about a situation within a conflict with the enemy or with the state decides to negotiate the first people to russia know the un who then demond our departure and as soon as we depart they forces said miska let out of control as do their budgets i can use syria and as an example. eighteen thousand men to replace what two hundred men did at an astronomical budget quote don't think that he's really looking at the interest the best because but i do think that africa has a large amount of responsibility for the problems it finds itself in. the continent

allowed themselves to be. mis advised and in many instances this missed this mis advice as custom very seriously. but i do believe that many of these foreign forces in africa are not yet you solve problems but to ensure that the problems continue. therefore i believe that i knew we can solve the problem. thank you very much for this and for a topical tip even barlow the founder of executive outcomes private company officer of executive outcomes against all odds talking about the truth behind the mercenary wars that is it for this edition of surfing call i will say next.

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