aviate pressure every time they achieve progress somewhere i mean what is wrong with the more the revolutionary united front our lord's resistance army being defeated i think it's very hard for me to sometimes comment on that i think you have to bear in mind that it's mainly the africans that come under pressure internationally when we get involved to resolve problems because if he is the mantra that africans solutions for african problems is a very good soundbite in syria but in practice we not allowed to practice it. so as you have put it when your military kompany executive outcomes was operating the media was highly critical often calling it illegal or claiming its soldiers eight people you said that lost the media war but most of your operations were conducted in secret why was the media war so damaging for you well first of all the media at that time in particular was used by the south african government and the south

african intelligence services to create certain perceptions specific sions were very necessary in order to hide what they were actually doing and that was supporting so-called rebel forces in various places in africa and of course entry into those conflict zones i do huge impact on not only economic interest but also a very personal interest and the media really just became a useful idiot as far as they were concerned. major problems for us yes we worked in secrecy but invariably any type of operation that anyone gets involved in eventually does end up with the media and the media with a for used as a two in order to counter us and to. try and create a certain impression about us which was entirely false. in some cases he said that

the pressure on your clients to governments to do it sure services would come from places like the pentagon or the united nations for instance why didn't those are going to say shows appreciate you solving their problems for them i've always been of the opinion that the soonest conflicts and organize ation such as united nations and numerous n.g.o.s or non-government organizations no longer have active role to play. i say ending conflicts but they phoned a guy throws they play in africa west what we were doing was obviously impacting on certain very deceptive foreign interests that we have being practiced on this continent like what will it take to do it the mining of diamonds to take to do with go to to do with oil. and all those natural resources obviously high value commodities. it will currently needs commodities and africa's

a great place to find it as long as there are conflicts on the go to deals can be struck with governments in order to get hold of these resources and use so why would the forces prefer to conduct business with rebels rather than rigid legitimate governments well obviously rebels don't test to provide any taxation to the mines resources within the areas and often the rebels are really just used as a proxy for was in order to destabilize a country and replace a certain government that's not compliant enough with the wishes of those that are outside driving these actions so you were grossly under the radar can you imagine a situation in which governments will hire pm ses openly without the fear of being compromised or well has always be an undercover type of trade. no.

it's ironic that waste in pm sees and lately i've noticed russian pm seize up writing with the blessing of the governments in africa many of them are being funded by their own governments. it is a problem as soon as we get involved in trying to resolve a conflict and we find that draw the hypocritical. at the end of the day if a government chooses to make use of us that is the productive of the government. problem how it is that we have to beg for a contract and have a state funded us with private military companies up writing on the phone been sponsored by the un governments the governments really have a choice either by my knee to contract us to suck or distance and support they've aust for free they usually go the free boot and often they live to regret that. after some mercenary leaders strike

their hand at military coups like the case of some calmer austin seychelles equatorial guinea at can you blame governments for being an easy about working with pay and cease. i think you for government has contracted to p.m.c. directly and that p.m.c. follows the laws of that country and that it puts itself under the jurisdiction of those on forces governments have no reason to fifty m.c. infected every time we have we integrated with the forces where we are training we live with them we share the same food as they do we live in the same type of environment they live in and we mentor them in the field. in those instances we are directly responsible for the men that the government to spliced and drown a month if the p.m.c. comes in and isolates themself and one side of a military complex refuses to integrate with the troops or comes in and it is

obvious that what they are training is totally irrelevant i think governments do have a need to be concerned as to what's going on but we believe if the government pays us for a service that's the safest way to live it we don't take short cuts and i'm mission is usually to end a conflict this because this post not to prolong it there's a whole heap of private military contractors working and less wars across the middle east and apart from blackwater which rebranded its way out of scandals their work goes i know it just why did you have a different experience what is it that sets you are paying say apart from those who are working for instance in afghanistan. well first of all we are an african company we are stuffed by africans we are based in africa and therefore we are not necessarily viewed as an ideal choice both foreign governments to use we've never

worked in the middle east so we cannot really comment on the fissions the or lack thereof that pm sees but that is pm sees operating in the middle east funded by the host governments and not by the country where they're working in it it creates a bit of a dial emma in the same state they are regarded as people that are doing their jobs and where is we are regarded as the bad guys in the story. i have to mention that we have yet to come across an african ami try and buy foreign p.m.c. or indeed foreign forces that have been well trained and prepared for their mission opinion is that most african on me is being set up to fail by the foreign the emcees foreign on forces of foreign advises that they make use of why is there a certain private military companies now i mean is it cheaper for a government to just let chris more people into the regular army then pave where

some areas double or triple of what a soldier makes. well i i think this being. in requirement for private military companies given the unstable. international arena that to be on live in i think and as instability grows it's become much easier to outsource certain services to private entities i will say look at the cost of maintaining a large standing army and then i look at africa in particular where is the doctrines that are used by many african on means than the troops are trained in those doctrines are really doctrines that are totally relevant to africa and they were doctrines that were designed to by the germans joining world war two when it comes to waste and time doctrines to fight the old soviets in europe and those types of things are totally. irrelevant as far as africa is fronts and and then of

course there is the ability of many african governments to buy their own equipment because that buys to do that their own of these things become money wasted and they have a lot of equipment and manpower that actually i built to function coherent and to defeat an on threat against that government so do you see this trend of hiring private military companies. continuing more fair be eventually privatized and outsourced p.m.c. . i don't think it will eventually be outsourced in total i think national ami's are still there to protect the integrity of the state and the territorial integrity of the countries. given the. the road that many proxy forces are currently playing in africa and the size of these proxy forces and the way in which they're equipped i think it's a government's prerogative to be called on any hope they stay and if they feel they

need that help to defeat these on states they're facing but that said i don't think that national army as well it has ceased to exist and i think that's a correct type of p.m.c. stuff by the creative people who understand the culture with operating in and the type of environment and certainly add value to the oppression efficiency of any african on me but if that can happen in theory for instance imagine what would be the dangers i mean when medieval mercenaries fought wars for italian cities they'd stop the fighting deliberately to make more money so if this goes on whatever is going on today we'll have an industry with a vested interest in war does that mean that the use of p.m.c. is will cause more wars in the future. well i think all wars are really based on mostly economic interests and secondly i don't think that.

p.m.c. that france it itself to be profession is going to hire itself out then play to the highest bidder but of course that danger does exist and that's why we have always been of the opinion that private but it to companies should be regulated and that they should act in accordance of the laws of those countries where they're operating and. i cannot see private military companies taking over the defense industry in total it saying but i do foresee a time when privately that to companies are simply going to go for the biggest budget and that's because many of them unprofessional. to see how long they can actually produce long a conflict or a war because the longer that goes on the more money that make for themselves i don't think however that within the type of environment that we operate governments are concerned. because they understand what we do and we understand where they need

to be going said hugh that seems to not be the case in many countries. for at mr barlow we're going to take a short break right now when we're battle continue talking with a bang marlowe the founder of executive outcomes talking about private armies and of wars they fight stay with us. for a world cup twenty eight team coverage we've signed one of the greatest goalkeepers available to us but there was one more question and by the way who's going to be our coach. guys i know you are nervous he's a huge star and the huge amount of pressure come out you have to go to the center

of the pole with you and we'll show you all the great game the great game you are the rock at the back nobody gets past you we need you to get going let's go. alone. and i'm really happy to join that for the two thousand and three and world cup in russia meet the special one. meets just at the reno theology team's latest edition of make up as we go. to jersey look. seemed wrong. but old rules just don't. mean you won't get to shape out these days comes to catapult and in games from an equals betrayal. when so many find themselves worlds apart we choose to look for common ground.

they were bad weather even barlow the founder of executive outcomes a private military company discussing what this war business is like so eight from the united nations or powerful government speight in the form of special forces training or direct military involvement always comes with conditions your work was offered strictly for money nothing else why aren't the governments around africa

excited about that well first of all of course we with money we have salaries to pay the same least to feed and we have travel expenses we have insurance we have made it that states that we cannot do what we do for free. governments in africa often do speak just an insect we need regular contact with several of. the already about order that is all that they wish for us so this is continually threatened that if they make use of us it will be to the disadvantage and these are threats that it midnight from beyond africa and it's really just just proof to us that a stable and secure africa is to be in very few people's interest i heard you say that some powerful countries like the united states dislike your successes where their own special forces had failed why do you think you know was better aren't they government trained special forces day ultimate weapon i mean all your

men are also a courier government trained soldiers. well. i cannot speak on behalf of the u.s. but we do know that the u.s. does not like it when we operate in africa and they have their own reasons for that they can do you need to look at a special forces soldier is not a soldier that can be used in any environment within any sort of military context there's a very particular row. view is always being to train soldiers to be identify the enemy to be able to think the enemy make use of the to right in the end and this is very very terrain that they cannot be a single approach to ending a conflict a war that we go to a huge process of analyzing the type of environment we working in because our mission is always very clear from a government in the conflict this quickly as possible. and that is exactly what we

set out to do so we had depth things we changed things. i like to think very mentally fixable and agile in order to read situations and predict and preempt what he's going to be happening. male alys who flew missions under your command he once said that the and i mean places like sierra leonean for instance was rubbish can the success of pm ses like your speech are a bit to the fact that the enemy is usually just very weak. i think when he needs to understand the mindset of these enemies there are different types of enemies there are sometimes just bags that have got weapons and because of that they perceive themselves to be in positions of power and usually they are but i think when we come to countries like syria leon and i this. is armed forces have had several years of training from waste and on these in particular and their training

is incredibly poor when you put up a poorly trained on me against a bunch of on thugs who have over time generated confidence and belief in themselves. the military usually performed dismally. in in sierra leone what the government was told by a foreign advise it would take six weeks to do come to in two days. and it's not necessarily always the enemy with the threat that struck me it's just being able to think it out maneuver him and then to destroy him on the battlefield. now you said that you were often given minimal reins to accomplish your mission what is minimal means a couple of guns and mortars how is it possible to get that results in a short time with minimal minimal minutes it sounds like a recipe for disaster to me actually well it's very difficult to work with the

many many means. if i can just take you back in a more recent situation where you were in nigeria we had two gunship helicopters that were modified they were really second and helicopters and we had one dedicated gunship very few states we didn't have enough vehicles we didn't have enough in direct fire support such as motors although everyone at small arms and there were some machine guns. it then becomes a matter of being able to utilize a unique doctrine and to rely on speed i think the enemy and to preempt what he's going to do but in order to achieve that we need intelligence so we have to focus on if it's on gathering intelligence identifying the enemy's intentions and then actually preventing him from implementing his intentions we've never been in a position where we've had. too much equipment in fact i think very few national

bees have too much equipment but we have really had to work sometimes with a very minimal of equipment and then he's in terms of our means. but because of that we have learned to overcome certain obstacles in our both and really i think an out maneuver an enemy that in general how do you think wars in africa are different from a war south where at lark outtake on your continent. i think wars in africa. different austria from other wars and although there are some similarities to them i think first of all we have to look at why these wars are started and often they are not started by all means started by the strength to do it disillusion groups of people. those groups of people. sometimes transition into a proxy force and and then supported by outside forces in terms of finance or in

terms of equipment or in terms of training. but i also think the environment in which we operate is vastly different from else way you know we operate from jungle type to right in the desert type to write and in everything in between as well and then i think we need to look at the the manpower itself where is there is nothing wrong with the african so jane fact is a very good soldier if you strict to try and enjoy it. but many of these soldiers are really put it trained and they then suffer from something that must always suffer from in the world and that is inadequate command and control and when you combine all of those elements together it becomes a very different type of war we have to operate across large tracts of land with no infrastructure. we often have no

a support as it's we have no way in which to directly move troops. it might be one or two helicopters but those helicopters of very stretched in what they can do and what they particular missions on. in africa we have to adept constantly to what's happening and then add to that the type of environment and terrain we're operating in so you said that you hire people of all races and that sometimes you work with people that he has to fight against how does that work inside a team i mean can you rely on your a former enemies when things start to go wrong. well. one has to look at where not when i made that comment that was executive outcomes was in operation and despite everything the media claimed about the south african defense force it was a multi-racial army so many of our fighting men came from mainly black units and i saved in one such unit that they were men i trusted to night with us and we'd

we'd had the same type of background in so far is the it was france and we had many members from the african national congress is doing the m.k. which apply to join us and those that had the correct profile and had the correct experience and knowledge we accepted into the country or in just a company rather. the bottom line is we work as a company and as a team and everyone has a part to play in that team regardless of what his political leanings might be but we don't go out and hire people who we've actually opposed on the battlefield. in more recent times although we have members in our company that come from numerous african countries everyone knows that when we work we will get as a unified team and we have a unified go to achieve on behalf of the government but just it's not

a problem of distrusting the people with us we know we can trust them we've worked with them and they know what is expected of them and he believe that only africans can self africa's problems are he saying that if foreign forces including here and peacekeepers withdraw from africa the continent will finally have peace and prosperity i firmly believe that idea africans can solve africa's problems. i think we need to have a look at who is. driving a lot of the crime which is taking place and i'm speaking of whether it be traunch national crime organized crime in terms of resource stripping the resource if that is the main cause of many of the problems we have in africa. i think that the un forces are bloated. in other words totally oversized and the budgeted in terms of what they change because they successes on that many. usually when we have brought

about a situation within a conflict way the enemy with a straight decides to negotiate the first people to russia know the u.n. who then demand our departure and as soon as we depart they force a sudden escalate out of control as do they budgets. i can use serially only as an example eighteen thousand men to replace what two hundred men did at an astronomical budget quote don't think that he's really looking at the interest the best because but i do think that africa has a large amount of responsibility for the problems it finds itself in. the continent's leaders have allowed themselves to be. mis advised and in many instances this missed this message biased as custom very seriously. but i do believe that many of these foreign forces if you go north you to solve problems but

to ensure that the problems continue. therefore i believe that i knew we can solve a problem. thank you very much for this and for a topical tip even barlow with the founder of the executive outcomes private company author of executive outcomes against all odds talking about the truth behind the mercenary wars that is it for this edition of surfing call i will say next.

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your bar business program interactive exhibition. details on possible forum dot com . it's world cup day twelve in the final games in group b. have just got underway with spain portugal and iran hoping to reach the last sixteen group a has been decided with mixed emotions the russian fans they qualified despite a disappointing defeat but it's jubilant but you reply i'm less supportive. i. mean while saudi arabia gets a late win against egypt in the final game of the tournament but it is a moment to remember for the egyptian goalkeeper debuting at forty five years old. and away from the football evaders leavin in full.