well obviously ribose doesn't tend to provide any taxation to the mines resources within the areas and often the rebels are really just used as a proxy for most in order to destabilize a country and replace a certain government that's not compliant enough with the wishes of those that are outside driving these actions so you work mostly under the radar or can you imagine a situation in which governments will hire pam says openly without the fear of being compromised or well has always be an undercover type of trait. it's ironic that waste and pm seasoned like to have noticed russian pm caesar uprighting with the blessing of the governments in africa many of them are being funded by their own governments. it is a problem as soon as we get involved in trying to resolve a conflict and we find that drugs are hypocritical. at the end of the day if

a government chooses to make use of us that is the prerogative of the government. problem how it is that we have to beg for a contract and have a state funded us with private military companies up writing on the phone and a sponsored by the un governments the governments really have a choice either by money to contract us to suck or distance and support they've aust to go free they usually go the free route and often they live to regret that. after some mercenary leaders strike their hand at military coups like the case of some calmer austin seychelles equatorial guinea and can you blame governments for being an easy about working with pay and cease. i think you for government has contracted to p.m.c. directly and that p.m.c. follows the laws of that country and that it puts itself under the jurisdiction of

those on forces governments have no reason to fifty m. c. in fact every time we have we integrated with the forces where we are training we live with him we share the same food as they do we live in the same type of environment they live in and we meant to them in the field. in those instances we are directly responsible for the men that the government to buy stendra a month if a p.m.c. comes in and isolates themself and one side of a military complex refuses to integrate with the troops or comes in and is obvious that what they are training is totally irrelevant i think governments do have a need to be concerned as to what's going on but we believe if the government pays us for a service that's the safest way to live it we don't take short cuts and i'm mission is usually to end a conflict just because this post not to prolong it there's

a whole heap of private military contractors working and he was wars across the middle east and apart from blackwater which rebranded its way out of scandals their work goes i know it just why does it have a different experience what is it that sets you are paying say apart from those who are working for instance in afghanistan. well first of all we are an african company we are stuffed by africans we are based in africa and therefore we are not necessarily viewed as an ideal choice both foreign governments to use we've never worked in the middle east so we cannot really comment on the fission see or lack there of that pm seeds but those pm sees operating in the middle east are funded by the host governments and not by the country where they're working and it creates a bit of a di lemma and in the same state they are regarded as people that are doing their

jobs and where is we are regarded as the bad guys in the story. i have to mention that we have yet to come across an african on me try and buy foreign p.m.c. or indeed foreign forces that have been well trained and prepared for their mission opinion is that most african on me is being set up to fail by the foreign the emcees foreign on forces of foreign advises that they make use of why is there a certain private military companies now i mean is it cheaper for a government to just let chris more people into the regular army than pay morrison there is double or triple of what a seller makes. well i i think this being. in their requirements for private military companies given the unstable. international arena that to be on live in i think and as instability grows it's become much easier to outsource certain services to private entities i will say look at the cost of maintaining

a large standing army and then i look at africa in particular where is the doctrines that are used by many african on this and the troops are trained in those doctrines are really doctrines that are totally relevant to africa and they were doctrines that were designed to by the germans joining world war two when it comes to waste and time doctrines to fight the old soviets in europe and those types of things are totally. irrelevant as far as africa is france and and then of course there is the ability of many african governments to buy their own equipment because that buys to do that their own of these things become money wasted and they have a lot of equipment and manpower that actually i bow to function coherent and to defeat an on threat against that government. so do you see this trend of hiring

private military companies. continuing more fair be eventually privatized and outsourced. i don't think it will eventually be outsourced in total i think national ami's are still there to protect the integrity of the state and the territorial integrity of the countries. given the. the road that many proxy forces are currently playing in africa and the size of these proxy forces and the way in which they're equipped i think it's a government's prerogative to be called on any hope they take and if they feel they need that help to defeat these on states they're facing but that said i don't think that national army as well if it ceased to exist and i think that's a correct type of p.m.c. stuff by the creative people who understand the culture with uprights again and the type of environment and certainly add value to the oppression efficiency of any

african on me but if that can happen in theory for instance imagine what would be the dangers i mean when medieval mercenaries fought wars for italian cities they'd stop the fighting deliberately to make more money so if this goes on whatever is going on today we'll have an industry with a vested interest in war does that mean that the use of p.m.c. is will cause more wars in the future. well i think all wars are really based on personally economic interests and secondly i don't think that. p.m.c. that from set itself to be profession is going to hire itself out simply to the highest bidder and of course that danger does exist and that's why we have always been if the opinion that private military companies should be regulated and that they should act in accordance of the nose of those countries where they're

operating and. i cannot see private military companies taking over the defense industry in total thing but i do foresee a time when privately to companies are simply going to go for the biggest but and that's because many of them unprofessional. to see how long they can actually produce on a conflict or a war because the longer that goes on the moment and make for themselves. i don't think however that within the type of environment that we operate governments are concerned. because they understand what we do and we understand where they need to be going said hugh that seems to not be the case in many countries. mr barlow we're going to take a short break right now when we're baffled continue talking with a been marlo the founder of executive outcomes talking about private armies and the wars they fight stay with us.

like for many clubs over the years so i know the game inside. the ball isn't only about what happens on the pitch for the final school it's about the passion from the fans it's the age of the super money kill the narrowness and spending to do the twenty million player. well it's an experience like nothing else only because i want to share what i think of what i know about the beautiful guy my great to one more chance for. the base.

pretty hot. they were bad weather even barlow the founder of executive outcomes private military company discussing what this war business is like so eight from the united nations or powerful government speight in the form of special forces training or direct military involvement always comes with conditions your work was offered strictly for money nothing else why aren't the governments around africa excited about that well first of all of course we with money we have study released by his family's defeat. we have travel expenses we have insurance we have made it

that it states that we cannot do what we do for free. governments in africa often do speak just infect we need regular contact with several of them. the irony about all of that is although they wish for us services they continually threatened that if they make use of us it will be to the disadvantage and these are threats that it midnight from beyond africa and it's really just just proof to us that a stable and secure africa is to be in very few people's interest i heard you say that some powerful countries like the united states dislike your successes where their own special forces had failed why do you think you know was better the government trained special forces day ultimate weapon i mean all your men are also a career government trained soldiers. well. i cannot speak on behalf of the

u.s. but we do know that the u.s. does not like it when we operate in africa and they have their own reasons for that they can do you need to look at a special forces soldier is not a soldier that can be used in any environment within any sort of military context there's a very particular row. view is always being to train soldiers to be identify the enemy to be able to think the enemy make use of the to right in the end and this is very very to right now they cannot be a single approach to ending a conflict or a war and we got through a huge process of analyzing the type of environment we working in because our mission is always very clear from a government in the conflict this quickly as possible. and that is exactly what we set out to do so we had depth things we changed things. i like to think very

mentally flexible and agile in order to reach situations and predict and preempt what he's going to be happening. now alys who flew missions under your command he once said that the and i mean places like sierra leonean for instance was rubbish can the success of pm ses like your speech a bit to the fact that the enemy is usually just very weak. i think when each to understand the mindset of these enemies there are different types of enemies there are sometimes just bags that have got weight buttons and because of that they perceive themselves to be in positions of power and usually they are but i think when we come to countries like syria leon and i this. is armed forces have had several years of training from waste and on these in particular and their training is incredibly poor when you put up a poorly trained army against a bunch of on thugs who have over time generated confidence and belief in

themselves. the military usually performed dismally. in in sierra leone what the government was told by a foreign advise it would take six weeks to do come to in two days. and it's not necessarily always the enemy with the threat that struck me it's just being able to think it out maneuver him and then to destroy him on the battlefield. now you said that you were often given minimal reins to accomplish your mission what is minimal means a couple of guns and mortars how is it possible to get that results in a short time with minimal minimal minutes it sounds like at recipe for disaster to me actually well it's very difficult to work with the many of the means. if i can just take you back in a more recent situation where you were in nigeria we had two gunship helicopters

that were modified they were really second and helicopters and we had one dedicated gunship very few states we didn't have enough vehicles we didn't have enough in direct fire support such as motors although everyone at small arms and there were some machine guns. it then becomes a matter of being able to utilize a unique doctrine and to rely on speed i think the enemy and to preempt what he's going to do but in order to achieve that we need intelligence so we have to focus on if it's on gathering intelligence identifying the enemy's intentions and then actually preventing him from implementing his intentions we've never been in.