and have a dial emma in the same state they are regarded as people that are doing their jobs and where is we are regarded as the bad guys in the story. i have to mention that we have yet to come across an african on me try and buy foreign p.m.c. or indeed foreign forces that have been well trained and prepared for their mission opinion is that most african on me is being set up to fail by the foreign pm sees foreign armed forces or foreign advises that they make use of why is there a certain private military companies now i mean is it cheaper for a government to just let chris more people into the regular army than pave where some areas double or triple of what a soldier makes well i i think they speak. in required for private military companies given the unstable. international arena that to be on live in i think and as instability grows it's become much easier to outsource certain

services to private entities also look at the cost of maintaining a large standing army and then i look at africa in particular where is the doctrines that are used by many african on these in the troops are trained in those doctrines are really doctrines that are totally irrelevant to africa. they would doctrines that were designed to by the germans joining would want to or when it comes to waste and time doctrines to fight the old soviets in europe and those types of things are totally. irrelevant as far as africa is fronts and and then of course there is the ability of many african governments to buy their own equipment because that buys do that the owner of these things become money wasted and they have a lot of equipment and manpower that actually i bow to function coherent and to defeat an on threat against that government. so do you see this trend of hiring private

military companies. continuing in warfare be eventually privatized and outsourced to pm cease i don't think it will eventually be outsourced in total i think national on misa still day to protect the integrity of the state and the territorial integrity of the countries. given the. the road that many proxy forces are currently playing in africa and the size of these proxy forces and the way in which they're equipped i think it's a government's prerogative to be called on any hope they stay and if they feel they need that help to defeat these on states they're facing but that said i don't think that national army as well if it ceased to exist and i think that's a correct type of p.m.c. stuff by the creative people who understand the culture with operating in and the type of environment and certainly add value to the operation efficiency of any

african nominee but if that can happen in theory for instance imagine what would be the dangers i mean when medieval mercenaries fought wars for italian cities they stop the fighting deliberately to make more money so if this goes on whatever is going on today will have an industry with a vested interest in war does that mean that the use of p.m.c. is will cause more wars in the future. well i think all wars are really based on mostly economic interests and secondly i don't think that. pm see that from city itself to be professionally is going to hire itself out then play to the highest bidder but of course the danger does exist and that's why we have always been at the opinion that private military companies should be regulated and that they should act in accordance of the laws of those countries where they're

operating and. i cannot see private military companies taking over the defense industry in total it's saying but i do foresee a time when privately companies are simply going to go with the biggest budget and that's because many of them unprofessional. to see how long they can actually produce on a conflict or a war because the longer that goes on the more money they make for themselves i don't think however that within the type of environment that we operate governments are concerned and our role because they understand what we do and we understand where they need to be going sadly that seems to not be the case in many countries right mr barlow we're going to take a short break right now when we're in battle continue talking with a been laro the founder of executive outcomes talking about private armies and the wars they fight to stay with us.

whether they object as he should when you go to one of the people so if you be in luck because. just me what i mean are well me and nothing. but the same.

boat. when i was a. double move. in school i'm. only interested in the prison instead of the city i'm a watchman of blood from a policeman that. went to meet him and oh is that and there have none he moved can you hear me.

diminished the most and. they were bad weather even barlow the founder of executive outcomes a private military company discussing what this war business is like so eight from the united nations or powerful government speight in the form of special forces training or direct military involvement always comes with conditions your work was offered strictly for money nothing else why aren't the governments around africa excited about that well first of all of course we with money we have salaries to pay the same least to feed and we have travel expenses we have insurance we have made it accept that we cannot do what we do for free. governments in africa often

do speak just infect me and regular contact with several of. the irony about all of that is all that they wish for us services they continually straightened that if they make use of us it will be to the disadvantage and these are threats that it midnight from beyond africa and it really just disproved to us that a stable and secure africa is to be in very few people's interest i heard you say that some powerful countries like the united states dislike your successes where their own special forces had failed why do you think you know was better aren't they government trained special forces day ultimate weapon i mean all your men are also courier government trained soldiers. well. i cannot speak on behalf of the u.s. but we do know that the u.s. does not like it when we operate in africa and they have their own reasons for that

they can do you need to look at a special forces soldier is not a soldier that can be used in any environment within any sort of military context there's a very particular row. view is always being to train soldiers. identify the enemy to be able to think the enemy make use of the terrain the and this is very very terrain that they cannot be a single approach to ending a conflict or a war and we got through a huge process of analyzing the type of environment we working in because our mission is always very clear from a government in the conflict this quickly as possible. and that is exactly what we set out to do so we had depth things we changed things. i like to think very mentally flexible and agile in order to reach situations and predict and preempt

what he's going to be happening. now alys who flew missions under your command he once said that the enemy in places like sierra leonean for instance was rubbish can the success of pm ses like your speech are a bit to the fact that the enemy is usually just very weak. i think when he needs to understand the mindset of these enemies there are different types of enemies there are sometimes just bags that have got weapons and because of that they perceive themselves to be in positions of power and usually they are but i think when we come to countries like syria and this. is armed forces have had several years of training from waste and on these in particular and their training is incredibly poor when you put up a poorly trained army against a bunch of on thugs who have over time generated confidence and belief in themselves. the military usually performed dismally. in in sierra leone

what the government was told by a foreign advise it would take six weeks to do we have come to in two days. and it's not necessarily always the enemy with the threat that struck me it's just being able to think it out maneuver him and then to destroy him on the battlefield . now you said that you are often given minimal reins to accomplish your mission what is minimal means a couple of guns and mortars how is it possible to get that results in a short time with minimal minimal minutes it sounds like a recipe for disaster to me actually well it's very difficult to work with the many of the means. if i can just take you back in a more recent situation where you were in nigeria we had two gunship elec up does that were modified they were really taken and helicopters and we had one dedicated

gunship very few states we didn't have enough vehicles we didn't have enough in direct fire support such as motors although everyone at small arms and there were some machine guns. it then becomes a matter of being able to utilize a unique doctrine and to rely on speed i think the enemy and to preempt what he's going to do but in order to achieve that we need intelligence so we have to focus on if it's on gathering intelligence identifying the enemy's intentions and then actually preventing him from implementing his intentions we've never been in a position where we've had. too much equipment in fact i think very few national bees have too much equipment but we have really had to work sometimes with a very minimal of equipment and then he's in terms of our means. but because of

that we have learned to overcome certain obstacles in our both and really i think an outmaneuvered an enemy. that in general how do you think wars in africa are different from a war south where at large chaotic on your continent. i think wars in africa. different austria from other wars and although there are some similarities to them i think first of all we have to look at why these wars are started and often they are not started by all means started by the strength or do it disillusion groups of people and those groups of people. sometimes transition into a proxy force and and then supported by outside forces in terms of finance or in terms of equipment or in terms of training. but i also think the environment in which we operate is vastly different from else way you know we operate from jungle

type to rain the desert type to rain and everything in between as well and then i think we need to look at the the manpower itself where is there is nothing wrong with the african so jane fecht is a very good soldier if you strictly trained and laid. but many of these soldiers are really put it trained and they then suffer from something that must always suffer from in the world and that is inadequate command and control and when you combine all of those elements together it becomes a very different type of war we have to operate across large tracts of land with no infrastructure. we often have no a support as it's we have no way in which to directly move troops. it might be one or two helicopters but those helicopters of very stretched in what they can do and what they particular missions on. in africa we have to adept constantly to what's

happening and then add to that the type of environment and terrain we're operating in he said that you hire people of all races and that sometimes you work with people that he has to fight against how does that work inside a team i mean can you rely on your a former enemies when things start to go wrong. well. one has to look at where not when i made that comment that was executive outcomes was in operation and despite everything the media claimed about the south african defense force it was a multi-racial army so many of our fighting men came from mainly black units and i saved in one such unit that they were men i trusted to night with us and we'd we'd had the same type of background in so far is the just why it was considered we had many members from the african national congress is doing the m.k.

which apply to join us and those that had the correct profile and had the correct experience and knowledge we accepted into the country or into company rather. the bottom line is we work as a company and as a t.v. and everyone has a part to play in that team regardless of what his political leanings might be but we don't go out and hire people who we've actually opposed on the battlefield. in more recent times although we have members in our company that come from numerous african countries everyone knows that when we work we will get as a unified team and we have a unified go to achieve on behalf of the government of justice not a problem of distrusting the people with us we know we can trust them we've worked with them and they know what is expected of them and he believe that only africans

can solve africa's problems are he saying that if foreign forces including here and peacekeepers withdraw from africa the continent will finally have peace and prosperity i firmly believe that idea africans can solve africa's problems. i think we need to have a look at who is. driving a lot of the crime which is taking place and i'm speaking of whether it be traunch national crime organized crime in terms of resource stripping the resource base that is the main cause of many of the problems we have in africa. i think that the u.n. forces are bloated. in other words totally oversized and the budgeted in terms of what they change because they successes on that many. usually when we have brought about a situation within a conflict way the enemy with a straight decides to negotiate the first people to russia know the u.n.

who then demond our departure and as soon as we depart they force a sudden iska like out of control as do that budgets. i can use sierra leone as an example eighteen thousand men to replace what two hundred men did at an astronomical budget quote don't think that he's really looking at the interest the best because what i do think that africa has a large amount of responsibility for the problems it finds itself in. the continent allowed themselves to be. mis advised and in many instances this missed this mis advice as custom very seriously. but i do believe that many of these foreign forces in africa are not you to solve problems but to ensure that the problems continue. therefore i believe that i knew we can solve the problem. thank you very much for this and for

a topical to even barlow the founder of executive outcomes private company officer of executive outcomes against all odds talking about the truth behind the mercenary wars that is it for this edition of surfing call i will say next. he's become quite fashionable on the political left to call anyone you don't like a nazi or hitler why you say come to this while the demonisation after all words have meaning and much much more on this edition of crossfire.

i played for many clubs over the years so i know the game inside guides. football isn't only about what happens on the pitch for the final school it's about the passion from the fans it's the age of the super money billionaire owners and spending student twenty million. it's an experience like nothing else i want to do because i want to share what i think what i know about the beautiful game played great so chimes with. the base is going to. now it was even month that. you had just one much more. month of thought one can. decide about the macand the how about

a month at. the pump we know. something that's been heavy. but my macand i don't look the people up i doubt that the head you see bought the. sight of kind of what wasn't used to be jumping up. and we can all agree that there's a was out above the net. windows but it. was hoping. to. head to head. with a muppet i thought of. something and said ask any of the woman hustles females i'll go. get. a. i. know.

i. only run there. oh no. let me and you know i mean to. come up. on.

top and you can move on is that moment when we can have them can you want to just put up on them that most of them are kind of them and you one of them at the thought of me i see. one of.

the. up on. a lot of want them. but. let's not have you and the mrs bush what how many so kind of gathered up the to do for c.n.n. and is it home what the full but a lot of the wood it just some. thumb on the left i mean how to make an eminent the most of the government will end up in the hundred when will they have the kind of the old must get out of the mud. i think father. well.

you can at the. last can to butt off but. you could not love them and for the hut. couldn't they any of them not a model and if it was that i do any of myself i kind of got a bit. but the. ones that ought to be let in then or maybe just some of the what them and feeding on that out of their home feed off any special fee. in the shell by any provision. i want to be just any other company if you don't know what. i'm.

all for. you know i suck can be whatever. i should be it's a fish out of someone for just fifteen then yes the gift shop. but i say ok. thank. you because you go so fast on business that i must follow up all the. problems and i'll see about. how it's like that of me she had what. i need.

but the economist of the i c l a t. lemme know what i mean and. the head he. mean if you're just my thumb is that you know you've done your fair share your general. feeling about some of these are with us we continue working against you from the north because i think. we're dedicating just believe we're missing any part of that so we missed. again. with the who are know the attackers.

threw them away and just figured jon they're going to lead them into that in fifty . mood collectors are all right there are men who would have. to. go to. the. thief

. or for. that matter they had to as you would not go to a number to improvise he or one of the for more so if you give them up because. the thought of on the question i. will one screw top i keep. so he got up at a still up and for what love. is it and i love. any of three and how many of the unions walked right out when you walked and i meant in even know me yet. it's. really.

religious to see. yourself on how to become of the dash the new direction of us a lot. of what we've been in a small town in a long. little did in the. new stuff. at the medina but he wasn't looking at there was a thief and asked him a. big. head he might not. say put up one food position what the need be what it would be and why.