there. are a. ton of welcome to all the parks for some of the western russia staff a nation with large sporting events comes down to an average on a glossy facade on an otherwise oddly reality instilling some money in the process for someone russia it's a crutch just says the country's out of its chronic i did development and enjoyed the party putting the co-leader aside will the world cup have any durable imprint on russia's economy and its society and will to discuss that i'm now joined by a prominent russian economist and a professor at the university of chicago constantine soni and mr sun is good to talk to you thank you very much for your time from her and now i know that the your

a big football buff and i know that you are very enthusiastic about the world cup in russia not as a way of bringing russia to do world but there's a way of bringing the world to russia particularly the provinces do you seeing all these open this all this hospitality the smiles. all disappear in a few weeks or do you think it will be more lasting economists try to measure the impact of three world cups and one thing that we know is that they make people they make people could be this company this will be maybe in a couple of months or maybe a year that's two people and they think in the example of open some tolerance brought to russia. is a good thing even for two weeks now like most economist i know you're quite skeptical of the state's massive presence and the economy because it's supposed to be. more corrupt and i suppose last sufficient and yet the free take the example of the world cup. was primarily organized by the state it was a huge logistical challenge. it is also a massive security operation it's

a major hospitality test and yet so far all those conflicting priorities i think have been balanced rather smoothly what's your own take on how has the russian state say it so far as an organizer there was. intended to have a profit for the russian government it's not a project to prove that it's in projects that people happiness it's extremely profitable because food is very profitable but of course huge investment on the government side is that this will hope development of food culture in the regions but what i was asking primarily about is the is the way the russians they've managed. the challenge because there are lots of studies for example suggesting that russian managers tend to be authoritarian they subscribe to the authoritarian style of management simply because it's easier to manage things this way but when

it comes to the world cup i think you have to be far more flexible than that so do you think it's a challenge anything when. it goes great i think people who are responsible for security. sometimes are. closed. more. normally should be closed but security is. measured by success and the. major disturbance researchers to take so it was successful but i guess. you would agree with me that balancing this on the one hand the security challenge but not doing it not overdoing it has always been a bit of a challenge for us i was watching the discussion you had here in moscow the other day and one thing that struck me was that your or your opponents mentioned that russians are unique when it comes to very low tolerance off. unpredictability or of uncertainty and that's actually you know the odd. side of insecurity you tend to

command and control so much that you essentially shut down everything else that shows up in the many aspects of the russian culture how would you change that and ensure that the world cup would example of course there is a lot of command and control in the government organisation of the world cup but it won't come. by international standards so the need to do. is judged by millions of people who came to russia. this is no russian problem it doesn't show up in their condition of this world cup do you think that's a function of many gas being foreign there is and russians traditionally be more tolerant and open and nicer to you for and there's only one thing which is very important there of course more russian spectators than for the spectators but the national spectator come to an international event and see what foreign for interest

you see as the next time she or he comes to tell you i'm sure know what to expect right so this is actually explains to russian what is normal event what i also hold with explains to the russian police force which is one of the largest in the world that there's a certain standard that should be applied across the board not only when you have a major tournament but also when you don't have it and i think. it shows them to. people to enjoy the show not to come on the control now. i came across a report the other day suggesting that most of the world cups financing one not into the sports venues into the infrastructure surrounding them the roads airports communications power grids so there seems to be a broader economic effect than that and i sometimes get an impression that the kremlin towards these events not only show how magnificent it is but actually to use it as a crutch just sort of get things moving that would otherwise. not be moving that

swiftly is it fair to look at the world cup and the other tunnel meant as a crutch that the russian government. it was about like one third of the one third of the total expenditure on the world cup was spent on roads and airports and i think this is the way it works in sure so the government needs to have big projects to spend money on improving on improving airports and i guess an actual question to a foreigner would be why i can to do it without having a major event of my country. and it's a difficult question but i think what matters when you control corruption and you do not have democratic elections is that you kind of make promises and then let people jordan this kind of these i mean when you just give. prevention programs you give money to improve. health care then

a lot of this is hidden because it's very hard to measure but if you say you're going to have a world cup five games in the world cup you'll have to do and you have a railroad right very observable things so it's harder to to so they're basically i think it's easier to control. too because everybody watches now. i know you're rather skeptical about the russian government's ability to push forward with a major reform agenda as was promised by president clinton for his and that's the current term in office do you allow for any chance. the government may defy the skeptics like for example our for the both team did in the match against egypt although not against the unfortunately of me or. expect it to do because president putin is in power. for twenty eight years and i think he's

very much set on the course that it's all free to choose and and actually it seems that he is very much. to the people that work for him so. i just do not expect any kind of major changes and if you mention reforms that do not come with major that leads me to my next question because i heard you say that the reforms are most likely to come off to put in which sounds rather counter-intuitive to me because whoever comes out after putting the will definitely have. much less political capital to push for. pleasant reforms as well as much last control of the of the baroque crissy isn't it very much now and never. discussion a problem in political science is that those leaders who have a lot of political power. actually pursue reforms and those leaders who appear in the much more compared to environment they sometimes push for marsh luxury forms

but complain bitterly about your from various units and. to the country. circumstances she never controlled the government so he was always their position but she's government did much more reforms them but the results of those reforms i think or at least a perception of the results of those reforms is a very very contentious issue in russia i think if you paula the majority of russians they would not tolerate yeltsin's policy. and for the kind of a crisis of. emergency room for us stage four cancer ok but this is how politics works not only in russia i think it's more it's more general but i want to go back to the point that the you mentioned that putin has been in power for so long. there for him to do to push for anything new and it's one thing when you're talking about political will

reach i think was the case maybe seven or eight years ago but it's another thing when you are faced with an accurate necessity because russia is in the pretty difficult economic situation it is facing a major decrease in the labor force it is challenge when it comes to the access to technology it is challenge when it comes to day access of financing its main x. sports have now become its liabilities i think you would agree that the pressure. that russia faces. economic challenge and challenge of sustainable long term roof which it was there for but there is no threat there is no. crisis so you seriously believe that the kremlin could have four more of the same. problem until is that something that you i mean we cannot get into vladimir putin's had but given how long he has been in power his rhetoric about this country the

notion of patriotism he subscribes to do you think he's really a kind of. laid back person who would just enjoy his time in power and forget about what comes after him. thinking about. something good doing they're forced to. change for election or doesn't need to. be. but they are working on the notion of a domestic challenge but i think russia is in pretty challenging place externally i mean the. i mean the difficulty is you tend to refer to it as russian geopolitical adventurism i think it's about it in a different terms but it is quite clear that when it comes to russia's positioning of itself around the world there's kind of a balance between russia's ambition and what russia itself. is next gen

political adventure that comes from russia to russia it never can exactly that's what i what i'm trying to drive at and do you think. for an. eighty years ago i'm not talking about foreign threat but to sustain that level of ambition and the current leadership past your political ambition it will have to strengthen the country from the inside including economically do you think. you could imagine that president putin will spend a lot of term. taken care of just political things reach i think i'm not important not sure that one for russian development and will not pay enough attention to it than i do now one thing that the russian government just recently was this plant in crisis and their retirement age and despite the kremlin's very apparent efforts to distance itself from that measure it is already clear that it is eating into ever ability ratings i think the latest poll by a film showed that confidence and put him put in is now the lowest in five years

you still don't take that as a measure of the crime and seriousness or resolve to do any popular things. in a venue to find him sorry i think basically all these issues there's also that they even want to show that the very thing matters because they have a preconceived notion. not sure that they. actually. don't you take that as a measure all the resolve the pushing for this very unpopular retirement pension richard you've seen with this is unpopular we'll see whether there will be major protests and not sure about this i think i think this was sort of expected so those people who was not protesting against election of president putin they will not be prejudiced against. mr stern and we have to take

a very short break now because people are back in just a few moments stay tuned. he's very. very competent so so far we go to do something to be competitive also as a footballer and therefore we know from when we come back to the national team. and we can perform. the camera. roughly once the show and some.

cool video. with the broccoli strings. more on string you don't really don't t.v. . back to worlds apart that constantine song and professor at the university of chicago school of public policy it was just one in three just before the break we started talking about the reform to increase or the proposal to increase the retirement age. for the russians and i think agreed that this kind of proposal is motivated by one of the most accurate challenges for the russian economy the prospect that shrinking it in its labor force i saw some of the speakers cited for example by russian economist alexei kudrin that russia may lose about ten million

working age population over the next ten or fifteen years. i suppose an increase in retirement age should not solve the problem long do you expect it to be sort of a stand alone policy or would it have to be accompanied by some i think this is sort of a technical adjustment so miss it clear there is some crap in this at the highest level with the economic situation is such there's no desire to make reforms these sequence some accountant can just meant for example there is not enough money to pay pensions these three was basically i think this was basically expected. so that you suggest that this is simply a way of. not spending enough on the pensions of course because the money in the budget and the expenditure so if you can take more revenues.

expenditure. on. things you could spend less. and you could pay these pensions you wouldn't. it is a major challenge for us i was interviewing a russian the comic development minister just had a day and he was actually i mean it is clear when you when you look at their statements that they are very much concerned about that issue there are a lot of policies going into investment for example into young women and providing childcare so that they can get those women out of their. homes put them back into the labor force. that this is an. important issue in labor productivity. incentives for interpret nurse to invest to make huge capital expenditures and on the face of it. this means that you have

a lot of business opportunities but you don't have and that is just too much pressure too much security services pressure business well speaking of business support changes the russian authorities are usually complimented for their. policies. there are evidence excesses like for example the historically low inflation but in my current economics a far less inspiring i would say why do you think russia still remains such a challenging place for small and medium sized businesses to develop is that because the kremlin despite all the lip service doesn't want that segment to grow or is it because it simply doesn't know how the stage of development. sort of a poor rich. sort of french country but sort of a poor part of each world. just much much stronger efforts on the government just. much more just much more efforts to

corruption to corrupt a few shows. to improve efficiency of. the. times for. i was on a conference earlier this year where one of the top proponents of liberal economic reforms in russia. the main mistake and they are not to ninety's was assuming that the russian culture the russian values. need to change in order to accommodate the economic wisdoms rather than the other way around that you need to. adopt economic reforms to the peculiarities of the russian character i wonder where do you come out on. how customisable is they decide the science of economics. to some extent. i don't think there is any kind of historical tradition that. inefficient

and corrupt or inefficient course this could be improved and this could be changed but i mean when you when you say about the inefficient corrupt police. i think we would all agree that there are still plenty of instances of corruption and torture and many other things that are absolutely horrifying but when you look at the trajectory or how that institution has been changing you really see no change comparing let's say seventy years ago. the changes sort of. just. didn't improve efficiency. see image improvement when you come to. see. it. not just

a law enforcement issue that's a major value that will take a major rally shift because russian people do not trust one another you know that. government needs to have a totally unproductive person. and improve productivity only if a small shop. in a problem solved right well i guess it's a bit of a chicken and egg question of whether you. first get rid of the or improve the quality of the policing or improve lives in your society so that people do not feel the need to private businesses do not feel the need to hire additional person to sit down trends and do nothing essentially but in your view you do believe that it's all about improving the quality of their of the police.

places now i know that you're a big believer in expanding access to foreign investors in russia and i think there is quite a bit of a regional variability when it comes to investors experiences in this country for example there are regions like kaluga which are which is one of the leaders in after partially because it's a kind of a stunning success story. because from what i've read about them after the collapse of the soviet union they pretty much have nothing except our geography of being close to moscow in the us they streamlined the regulation they've been credited for fighting corruption obviously there are other regions that have not named but do not provide for a success story. what explains this variability in your view is it really all about the kremlin and the police force as much as they are local administrators ok.

so that's probably. the mother of invention. you're also very much in favor of privatization and i think i would agree that a big hurdle there is our court system and a very uncertain let's put it that way ability to protect your property rights in russia. this is a company that was nationalized. as i have my own experience in the state i can say this is not a pleasant one but what i wanted to ask you something different because i recently heard and idea coming out of ukraine that would allow foreign investors there it's you bypass the ukrainian court system altogether and to go straight to the british courts and obviously that's not going to happen in russia any time soon probably never but what do you think of that idea general do you think it could work to do

you can you borrow as other countries institutions that or rather outsource. to institutions and. it's not it's not a good if you create an example russian businessman for. contracts that. breaches courts or. national clause in the contract but generally speaking if you sign the contract here you should be able to you usually are required to go to a local courts ok i think it's extremely important for each for each country to develop its own course. business meant to use the country court to court for businesses because of the. ok if if you crane. example of the development.

experience. so i'm not sure that this will be. when russia was going through its previous reformist stretch it was the university of chicago where you're currently work that had a lot of influence economic influence. influence because. i just cannot remember. who. is. well. and he came as a kind of. stories about issues reforms and well there was some influence and this is. my way off leading to to the last question i have time to ask you because i think when it comes to ukraine it is now a lot of people who are advising the ukrainian elites who are trying to bring new

institutions to ukraine and i just wonder what's your hunch. as an economist which project is going to be more successful because russian we generally do not believe that it was very very stunning success. back in one thousand nine hundred do you think ukraine will be more. things that could. be if huge disappointment if. you create the kind of the. russian economy is much much more stronger but i guess the question is not only. the absolute figures. but also the ability to bring new practices to bring new institutions and to in a way to change the culture that's what allow you to. criticize

and the current state of the russian economy the ukrainian government and the ukrainian economy has a lot of a lot to pitch a rush i mean we russians are usually accused of you know taking pleasure in ukrainians failures and this is not what i thought i would never do. i would neither but i wonder because i think that applies to both of our countries i wonder why do you thing it is so difficult to apply the foreign advice in india's cultural environment again is that the cultural environment is it something else that does not allow that you know advise that's worked in other countries to work here just as well as a teaching. position and the advice is only reason acquired by both and this is always very difficult to make the patient to do what the doctor wants to do

there might be a lot of mistakes since it was it was if you quite as proof is that it was the first since it was luck so that's just very difficult well this rather disappointing out mr stein and we have to leave it there thank you very much for coming here and i encourage our viewers to keep this conversation going in our social media pages and hope to see same place same time here on worlds apart.

you know world of big new law and conspiracy it's time. to dig deep to hit the stories that mainstream media refuses to tell more than ever we need to be smart we need to stop slamming the door. and shouting past each other it's time for critical thinking it's time to fight for the middle for. the time is now watching closely watching the hawks.

so you know i. think kremlin and the white house confirmed the first official summits between donald trump and vladimir putin. the day fourteen seen. qualify for the last sixteen but there is a price outside and. defending champions gemini go crashing down to south korea and while the koreans failed to qualify for the knock on their fans will be happy. for the latest on these stories and all the action from the world cup.