people and i think any example of open some tolerance brought to russia. is a good thing even for two weeks now like most economists i know you're quite skeptical of the state's massive presence in the economy because it's supposed to be. more corrupt and i suppose last efficient and yet the free take the example of the world cup. was primarily organized by the state it was a huge logistical challenge it is also a massive security operation it's a major hospitality test and yet so far all those conflicting priorities i think have been balanced rather smoothly what's your own take on how has the russian state fair it so far as an organizer. was. intended to have a profit for the russian government it's not a project to prove that it's in project for people happiness it's extremely profitable because in general is very profitable but of course if your investment

on the government is that this will hope development of culture in regions but what i was asking primarily about is the is the way the russians they've managed. the challenge because there are lots of studies for example suggesting that russian managers tend to be authoritarian they subscribe to the authoritarian style of management simply because it's easier to manage things this way but when it comes to the world cup i think you have to be far more flexible than that so do you think it's a challenge anything when. it goes great i think people who are responsible for security. sometimes. close. more schools that normally should be closed but security is. measured by success and the. major disturbance researchers to take so it was successful but i guess. you would

agree with me that balancing this on the one hand the security challenge but not doing it not overdoing it has always been a bit of a challenge for us i was watching the discussion you had here in moscow the other day and one thing that struck me was that your or your opponents mentioned that russians are unique when it comes to very low tolerance off. unpredictability or of uncertainty and that's actually you know the other side of insecurity you tend to command and control so much that you essentially shut down everything else that shows up in the many aspects of the russian culture how would you change that and ensure that the world cup example of course there is a lot of command and control in the government organisation of the world cup but it won't come. by international standards so the need to do. millions of people who came to russia. this is no russian problem it doesn't show

up in their condition of this world cup do you think that's a function of many guests being foreign there is and russians traditionally be more tolerant and open and nicer to you for and there's only one thing which is very important of course more russian spectators than for the spectators meant the national spectator come to an international event and see what for. sure he. should know what to expect right so this actually explains to russian what is normal and then i also hold with explains to the russian police force which is one of the largest in the world that there's a certain standard that should be applied across the board not only when you have a major tournament but also when you don't have it and i think. it shows them to. people to enjoy the show not to come on the control now. i came across

a report the other day suggesting that most of the world cup's financing one not into the sports venues into the infrastructure surrounding them the roads airports communications power grids so there seems to be a broader economic effect than that and i sometimes get an impression that the kremlin towards these events not only show how magnificent it is but actually to use it as a crutch just sort of get things moving that would otherwise not be moving that swiftly is it fair to look at the world cup and the other tournament as a crutch that the russian government has. it was about like one third of the one third of the total expenditure in the world cup was spent on roads and airports and i think this is the way it works in russia so the government needs to have big projects to spend money on improving on improving airports and i guess an actual question to a foreigner would be why i can to do it without having a major event

a white country. this is kind of a difficult question but i think what matters when you control corruption and you do not have democratic elections is that you kind of make them promise and then let people journalists kind of watch this i mean when you just give. prevention programs you give money to improve. health care then a lot of this is hidden because it's very hard to measure but if you say you're going to have a world cup five games in the world cup you'll have to do and you will have a real road right very observable things so it's hard to so they're basically i think it's easier to control. it's too because everybody watches now. i know you're rather skeptical about the russian government's ability to push forward with. a major reform agenda as was promised by president clinton

for his next or a current term in office do you allow for any chance. the government may defy the skeptics like for example are for the both team did in the match against egypt although not against unfortunately. me or just mark expect it to do because president putin is in poland for twenty years and i think he's very much set on the course that it's ok to choose him and actually it seems that he's very much. to the people in the room for him so. i just do not expect any kind of major changes and if you mention new forms that don't come with major leads me to my next question because i heard you say that the reforms are most likely to come off to put in which sounds rather counter-intuitive to me because whoever comes out after put in the will definitely have. much less political capital to

push for. pleasant reforms as well as much last control of the of the barrel crissy isn't it very much now and never. discussion the problem in political science is that those leaders who have a lot of political power will. actually pursue reforms and those leaders who appear in the much more complete different environment they sometimes push for marsh luxury forms but complain bitterly about your from various units and. to the country. circumstances she never controlled the government himself he was always there position but his government did much more reforms them but the results of those reforms i think at least a perception of the results of those reforms is a very very contentious issue in russia i think if you paul the majority of russians they would not tolerate yeltsin's policy. and for

the kind of a crisis of. emergency room for us stage four cancer ok but this is how politics works not only in russia i think it's more it's more general but i want to go back to the point that the you mentioned that putin has been in power for so long. for him to do to push for anything new and it's one thing when you're talking about political will reach i think was the case maybe seven or eight years ago but it's another thing when you are faced with an accurate necessity because russia is in the pretty difficult economic situation it is facing a major decrease in the labor force it is challenge when it comes to the access to technology challenge when it comes to day access of financing its main x. sports have now become its liabilities i think you would agree that the pressure. that russia faces. has

a challenge of sustainable long term roof which it was there for but there is no threat there is no. crisis so you seriously believe that the kremlin could have four more of the same. problem and told is that something that you i mean we cannot get into vladimir putin's had but given how long he has been in power his rhetoric about this country the notion of patriotism he subscribes to do you think he's really a kind of. laid back person who would just enjoy his time in power and forget about what comes after him. and have a general thinking about. something good when they're forced to. challenge for an election or doesn't need to. be. but they are working on the notion of

a domestic challenge but i think russia is in pretty challenge place to turn away i mean the. i mean the difficulty you're trying to refer to it as russian geopolitical adventurism i think it's about it in a different terms but it is quite clear that when it comes to russia's positioning of itself around the world there's kind of a balance between russia's and bishan and what russia itself. is next. comes from russia to russia it never can exactly that's what i what i'm trying to drive at and do you think. for four and. eighty years ago i'm not talking about foreign threat but to sustain that level of ambition of the current leadership past your political ambition it will have to strengthen the country from the inside including economically do you think. you could imagine that president putin will spend a lot of term. taking care of geopolitical things reach i think are not important

and not should have been for russian development and will not pay enough attention to it going to do now one thing that the russian government just recently was this plant increases and their retirement age and despite the kremlin's very apparent efforts to distance itself from that measure it is already clear that it is eating into you'll put an ever ability ratings i think the latest poll by a film showed that confidence and put him put in is now the lowest in five years you still don't take that as a measure of the crime and seriousness or resolve to do any unpopular things. do not attach any value to film findings sorry i think basically over these issues there's also that they even when they show that the very thing matters. they have a preconceived notion. not sure that they. actually. don't you take that as

a measure all of the resolve down pushing for this very unpopular retirement pension which as you've seen with this is unpopular will see that there will be major protests and not sure about this i think i think this was sort of expected so those people who was not protesting against election of president they will not be protesting against. increases mr stern and we have to take a very short break now because people there back in just a few moments stay tuned. he's very valuable and very competent so so far we go to do something to be competitive also as a footballer and therefore we know from when we come back to the. riches of this knowledge and we can perform it.

welcome back to worlds apart that constantine son and professor at the university of chicago's harris school of public policy it is just one in three just before the break we started talking about the reform to increase or the proposal to increase the retirement age. for the russians and i think everybody agreed that this kind of

proposal is motivated by one of the most accurate challenges for the russian economy the prospect that shrinking it in its labor force i saw some of the speakers cited for example by a russian economist alexei kudrin that russia may lose about ten million also it's working age population over the next ten or fifteen years. i suppose an increase in retirement age should not solve the problem long do you expect it to be sort of a stand alone policy or would it have to be accompanied by some i think this is sort of a technical adjustment so mrs clear there is some happiness at the highest level with the economic situation is there is no desire to make reforms these sequence some accountant contestants for example there is not enough money to pay pensions these three was basically i think this was basically expected. so that you suggest

that this is simply a way of. not spending enough on the pensions of course because the money in their budget and their expenditures so if you can take more even use your expenditures. on. things you could spend less political adventures you could pay these pensions you wouldn't. labor. it is a major challenge for us i was interviewing a russian the comic development minister just the other day and he was actually i mean it is clear when you when you look at their statements that they are very much concerned about that issue there are a lot of policies going into investment for example into young women and providing childcare so that they can get those women out of the. homes put them back into the labor force. is

more important issue in labor productivity. incentives for interpret nurse to invest to make huge capital expenditures on the face of it. then this means that you have a lot of business opportunities but you don't have and that is just too much. too much security services pressure and business well speaking about the business of the changes the russian authorities are usually compliment for their. policies. there are evidence excesses like for example the historically low inflation but in my current economics a far less inspiring i would say why do you think russia still remains such a challenging place for small and medium sized businesses to develop is that because the crime and despite old a lip service doesn't want that segment to grow or is it because it simply doesn't know how the stage of development. sort of

a poor rich. sort of french country but sort of a poor part of each world. just much much stronger efforts on the government. much more just much more efforts to reduce corruption to corrupt a few shows. of. the. i was. a conference earlier this year where one of the top proponents of liberal economic reforms in russia. the main mistake and they are not to ninety's was assuming that the russian culture the russian values. need to change in order to accommodate the economic wisdoms rather than the other way around that you need to . adopt economic reforms to the peculiarities of the russian character i wonder

where do you come out on. how customizable is they the science of economics. to some extent. i do think that this is like. food for a national story i don't think. of historical tradition and. inefficient and corrupt. inefficient courts this is this could be improved and this could be changed but i mean when you when you say about the inefficient corrupt police. i think we would all agree that there are still plenty of instances of corruption and torture and many other things that are absolutely horrifying but when you look at the trajectory or how that institution has been changing you really see no change comparing let's say like seventy years ago. the changes sort of. just. didn't improve efficiency.

see image improvement when you come to. see. the police. not just a law enforcement issue that's a major value that will take a major rally shift because russian people do not trust one another you know that. they're going to have a totally unproductive person. this will be improved productivity owner of a small shop. the police. in one minute problem solved right well i guess it's a bit of a chicken and egg question whether you. first get rid of the or improve the quality of the policing or improve lives in your society so that people do not feel the need to private businesses do not feel the need to hire additional person to sit at

the entrance and do nothing essentially but in your view you do believe that it's all about improving the quality of the of the police. places now i know that you're a big believer in expanding access to foreign investors in russia and i think there is quite a bit of a regional variability when it comes to investors experiences in this country for example there are regions like kaluga which are which is one of the leaders in after partially because it's a kind of a stunning success story. because from what i read about them after the collapse of the soviet union they pretty much have nothing except our geography of being close to moscow on the up they streamlined the regulation they've been credited for fighting corruption obviously there are other regions that have not named but do not provide for

a success story. what explains this variability in your view is it really all about the kremlin and the police force as much as they are local administrators. of. basically because they will so that's probably. the mother of invention. you're also very much in favor of privatization and i think you would agree that a big hurdle there is our court system and a very uncertain let's put it that way ability to protect your property rights in russia. this is a company that was nationalized. i have my own experience in the state i can say this is not a pleasant one but what i wanted to ask you something different because i recently

heard. and idea coming out of here crane that would allow foreign investors there it's you bypass the ukrainian court system altogether and to go straight to the british or it's obvious that that's not going to happen in russia any time soon probably never but what do you think of that idea in general do you think it could work to do you can you borrow as other countries institutions or rather outsource. to institutions and. it's not good if you create an example russian businessman for. concludes contracts that. breaches courts or. national clause in the contract but generally speaking if you sign the contract here you should be able to you usually are required to go to a local courts ok i think it's extremely important for each for each country to develop its own court system. business to use the country court of

a court for businesses because of this. ok if if you crane. example of the development. experience. so i'm not sure that this will be. when russia was going through its previous reformist stretch it was the university of chicago where you currently work that had a lot of influence economic influence. i just cannot remember. who. and he came as a kind of. stories about reforms in well anyway there was some

influence and this is. my i guess. to the last question i have time to ask you because i think when it comes to ukraine it is now a lot of people who are advising the ukrainian elites who are trying to bring new institutions to ukraine and i just wonder what's your hunch. as an economist which project is going to be more successful because russian we generally do not believe that it was very very stunning success. after it syria from russia back in one thousand nine hundred do you think ukraine will be more. things that could be. if huge disappointment if. you create the kind of the.

russian economy is much much more strong but i guess the question is not only. the absolute figures. but also their ability to bring new practices to bring new institutions and to in a way to change the culture that's what allow you to. even criticize them for current state of the russian economy the ukrainian government and the ukrainian economy because a lot of the world to pitch a russian i mean we russians are usually accused of you know taking pleasure in ukrainians failures and this is not what i thought i would never do. i would neither but i wonder because i think that applies to both of our countries i wonder why do you think it is so difficult to apply for and advise in in these cultural environment again is it the cultural environment is it something else that does not

allow adopt you know advise that's worked in other countries to work here just as well. and the advice is only reason acquired by both and this is always very difficult to make the patient to do what the doctor wants to do there might be a lot of mistakes simply it was it was if you quote as proof is that it was deferred since it was luck so that's just very difficult while on this rather disappointing out mr stein and we have to leave it there thank you very much for coming here and i encourage our viewers to keep this conversation going in our social media pages and hope to see same place same time here on worlds apart.

originally the thought is brought back to us it has taken care of our cause just as you did from feeling most of them from a completely different cause i was just. a stab at. the problem is that we kind of how they stayed within the state they call a nice name in this non part of sweden. time want to talk to some people who have not checked up on them no no pacing up some stuff stop stop stop the bullshit no go boom boom boom boom my culture is crisp country and we don't do

things like that and we tell you if you do then we hate you and someday hopefully you can do something about this stuff. we can not be naive about to not attract more gangsters rapists and these words actually that are tearing down this city we wants to face with this country and we've long and most of the people who live here now to go back.

see you. join me every thursday simon short and i'll be speaking to the world of sport i'm sure i'll see you then.

the headlines on the international after ten hours of deliberation leaders have reached an agreement on the crisis including the setting up of special. speeding up the extradition process. is attempting to prove to patriotism and making it compulsory for primary school children to sing the country's national anthem. and the group stage of the twenty eighteen world cup in russia is only sixteen teams now remain in the race to be crowned champions.