welcome to. the arab spring began with high hopes. but with seventy years on it turned the middle east into an open war and what went so wrong and what is next for the region will i ask the former president of tunisia where the wave of revolt started mr maule said. seven years after the people of the middle east took to the streets demanding transparency democracy and inclusion the region is a wash with fanaticism on a key and launch popular movements just doomed to fail in the arab world has the arab spring become the ultimate antidote against revolutions or will in other ways of uprisings and goes to region once again. the

former president of tunisia welcome to the show it's really great to have you with us now. seventy years ago they are exploring infected the middle east with hopes that popular app risings would get rid of dictators and usher in an era of prosperity we have now only one success story out of many why has to manage to make this work so far but no one else where first of all the let me thank you for this invitation of course here it is here we are extremely sorry for what happened to strike syria like. libya even. i think it's really a catastrophe that just because the people wanted to be free. you know what happened to the syrian people you don't want to happen to the libyan people etc. tunisia is concerned i can say that where we are if of course very pretty proud.

because we have a she with a peaceful and democratic group who should but you know. we have both a problem. we're tackling a lot of problem we didn't solve all our problems so i wouldn't talk about success story i would talk about a half success story and i am very often asked why tunisia is so. is so different. in fact if we have this small success i can say it has nothing to do with the fact that we are all smarter or we are different than syrian or libyan it has to do with the very structure of the traditional society i can say that this is lucky because. you know that we are a middle class society where you do get that society we have very strong civil society for many many many decades. also we are a small country we don't have oil we don't have you know so we don't attract the greed of superpowers or so forth. and we are also mother in the country

this this has been very specific to our torah history you were first president after the revolution what was the biggest challenge for you is that i mean do you feel you have to feel the protesters demands and dreams one of the main important reasons for group pollution was the higher it wouldn't probably meant higher rate of corruption. improvement among among graduates and i can say that. if you consider this objective we didn't we didn't achieve much we still have a corrupt society we still have a corrupt corruption is everywhere in our work in our society we still have a high rate of unemployment and we still have a lot of bitterness you know especially in the hinterland so i would say that our success story is a half success story once again because we have achieved the political game the political objective but we didn't we didn't. succeed in achieving the economy goals

so i heard you say that you had nightmares specs and that there'll be another revolution within the revolution was it hard for you to prevent and are there were upsizing from breaking out well i hope that. the huge challenges we have precinct coming to you once again we're just facing economic problems if we can if the news you can move forward if tunisia in one of the next election for instance you know. there could stay on the track with the state democratic states and improve the economic situation i think we can we can probably. improve the situation as a whole i think tunisian our tunisian people is a wise people is a moderate people and i can i can hope that we would not have to resort to a new record who should but to make a situation would worsen again and again and again i'm afraid that people would say hey it's ok we were going to be very impressed by the fact that we have freedom of

expression freedom of association but not enough we want to eat and so then i would be very. probably they would be more interested. to craft a. regime that could bring. social development but the problem is that we have we have had this kind of regime for more than two decades i think what we call the strong with the dictator. etc but that didn't bring the social and economic improvement the people of tunisia has to understand the link between democracy and social development this link is not yet well understood like you said there's corruption tunisian unemployment rates are high finances are in disarray the tourism industry is threatened by terrorism i mean it's not that much better than under the former dictatorship right so how can you explain to young

people what this was all really for if they don't see much difference. well first of all they see a difference they see a difference because for the first time tunisian leave. they did then they don't labor under fear you know because under the dictatorship the situation was a psychological situation of the people was extremely extremely bad i think a delusion were very frayed that the secret police tunisian were pretty proud of everything and they. they use it to to to feel to shame it and of being just subject to the to the dictator of a dictatorship and corrupt dictatorship so i think they see the difference and they are this is why i think they they would never accept the comeback of the dictatorship even if you have this democrat this economic problem but the but it all tunisians know that and in fact. if you have had this with pollution it's not because well the people didn't want nobody you know would take to the street

just because he's he's angry or people have taken to the streets because they want to rush to because there is tunisia would no longer accept to live under this high. level of oppression their high level of contempt the high level of poverty etc etc so in fact the main responsible for the revolution i would say it is the dictatorship is the same thing in syria if this is syrian people you know took to the street it could be it it was only because of the syrian regime and it was the same thing in libya in asia but you cannot you know we cannot say to the people look be very careful because if you revolt then you would have you would be punished and punished those people would not accept this kind of blackmail you know if we come back to the same regime with the same problem with the same disease the outcome would be a new one pollution. one time or another it's just

a matter of time. there are straight rallies in tunisia and people are setting themselves on fire just like in twenty eleven but with less restrictions on the santa with republic this chorus with elections will live discontent just dissipate away or is it putting real pressure on tunisian politicians yes of course there is usually. for the first time here in tunisia and this is because of the regime of course we have public opinion and the public opinion is now playing an important role you know to put the pressure on to a petition to improve their their way. of behaving and you know when you have. i think it's very important for for a compromise because that people. become really citizens because before the state before the revolution they were just subject to the datasheet now currently they are citizens and they are free and they are proud of being free and they are for

the first time once again we have a public opinion on the political scene that every politician is now very aware of the fact that he is well watched by the by this public opinion by the. by social media etc etc and this this is our i would say that this is our main game from the from the revolution that's for the first time in this country we are free people and we are proud of being free people and so and also recently around the start it's also not really do you just get it you just said it we're free people does the fact that you're free people and people are able to speak their minds freely mean that there is a less chance of a revolution because they can say whatever they want. yes but you know this pritam is made you use it to fight again the missing the main problem that led to the reproduction which is corruption oh man problem in this country and all of the arab countries corruption is the fact that we have a corrupt elite and this corrupt you need to use it to use the state for its own

benefit for the first time in our history and three thousand years of history in tunisia we have the public opinion we have people watching what's happening within the state watching what is that i would of course face here is this this if you're saying it's your. opinion and people watching the politicians that means that there is less pressure on politicians because there is no danger also revolution. so your politicians can just continue until there is a one because there is no pressure because there is no fear of a relation anymore. no no but we have a we are going to have elections on with every note everybody know that election now i have nothing to do with the elections before they were lucian so this also is kind of. pressure but you know we're going to change the situation from overnight we have to be patient we have to we need we need some more time but i think as far

as tunisia is now a democratic state i think we can we will stick to this new freedom and we were not give up look at what the situation in. the other in libya in syria in yemen is what you would see that the people are still fighting for their freedom they didn't give up even with the you know the high amount of blood and the high amount of repression of violence by the by the country will who should be parsed is still. fighting for their freedom and this is a new phenomena and this is. the no matter what the old regime would do the people would fight for their freedom and this is very new and this is very very promising all right we're going to take a short break right now when we're back we'll continue talking to him and says i'm absolutely the former president of tunisia discussing the legacy i'll say arab spring seven years after it broke out stay with us.

f.o.c. . across europe municipalities are taking their water supply back from private companies to me to people this is the simple song alone even some company get elsewhere they can find private companies to take over the utilities anybody tell us that. allowed from us you guys you've got. to go. i've been this is us because i'm out. for you now i'm going to lift hill brought up locals are ready to stand up for the

basic human right of access to water it's about water but it's also over much more than water it's about the hurt and the redistribution of. this. date downwards. anyone know what. i've been saying the numbers mean something they matter to us is over one trillion dollars and. more than ten white collar crime stamped each day. eighty five percent of global will you long to be ultra rich with six percent market song thirty percent is one of your own with four hundred to five hundred per second per second and one rose to twenty thousand dollars. china's building two point one billion dollars a all you industrial park but don't let the numbers overwhelm. the only numbers you need remember it was one of those you know ford commit to one and only

. so what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have it's crazy going from duration let it be an arms race based on off and spearing dramatic development only really i'm going to resist i don't see how that strategy will be successful very critical time to sit down and talk.

and we're back with. the former president often asia talking about the triumph some disasters of the arab spring revolutions so talking about the our strength in the region as a whole the app rising can be traced to just so barack or. they happened in so many countries at once but is it fair to bundle all his revolves together i mean surely a different arab states had different reasons for the uprisings or did they not. well i think they have to have the same problem everywhere the same problem is once again dictatorship are hard to ship with massive human rights violation or this you know human rights violation in fact they were hiding the the make the most important problem which is corruption the huge amount of money that have been spent by the local police everywhere and our board this was the inacceptable especially for the new generation because what the leaders in that understand that they are

facing in usual ration i call it the asian aeration this generation of young people where educated work will inform. being you know. extremely aware of the everything happening in the world etc. being part of this social network international social network it's about this asian immigration has nothing to do with the older generation my generation for instance where you have. people who are not educated who could accept everything you know i don't like the word arab spring i always talk about the arab volcanoes of the arab quake what happened in two thousand and eleven was just the first outburst of the volcano was even though you can be quite sure that if you have a new eruption over again those everywhere if we don't if the local regime the elites the local elite don't think of this problem of corruption of social justice

so the libyan and syrian cases lead to all out war in talking specifically about libya now that gadhafi regime managed to uphold the tribal power balance in a country with gadhafi gone the tribes have gone to war do you think it's a responsible to start a revolt without thinking about how to keep the country together after their waltz i mean my class was you know if you were removing the dictator but losing the country in the process. yes well this is exactly what many people would say everywhere but i can i can respond to this. who is responsible of the situation on p.b.s. i think this kadafi was head of state for more than for the kids why didn't he. do everything you know to promote education to promote social justice it's a process about imagine that this nick paper has done this has promoted i would see

the minimum of the democracy the minimum of social justice is the minimum of i think the probably leader would be one of the richest and the most stable country in the in the region but this is didn't happen so once again what's happened now in libya the outbreak of the repercussions and the aftermath of the bush and it's the responsibility of gaddafi exactly it's the responsibility al bashir assad in syria is the responsibility of the dictatorship in tunisia i think it is imagine that all of those dictators behaved differently imagine that in syria for instance the bush either side has accepted minimal freedoms a minimum of social justice you wouldn't have this is the this catastrophe here. ok we're going to debate one example that right now i must go and that they happen we're talking about things that didn't happen and we can't change my question is this things standing the way they stand right now is a worse lose

a good country by removing a dictator. yes but the amount of doing so the us would be look i would say to every country you know living under a dictatorship look emersion what would happen if you get rid of the dictatorship so please accept the. present so please accept. corruption so please accept everything so it please accept because look it would be worst if you don't if you if you move forward if you ask if you stand for four for your dignity or for its you cannot talk to people like this ok you can have. a measure now if any country. living under our dictatorship and say big careful because if you do with it it is your fate would be worse no we cannot have you cannot talk to the people like this you you have to talk to the lesson would be good to talk to the dictators everywhere was there the look you have to do something for your country because if

you don't you you can have the destruction of your e.u. regime but also the destruction of your people your country this is what should be said to the dictator or another to the people this is should be a big lesson of the arab spring and do you think the taters are listening now no they are not listening because the you know the dictator is a dictator i think has he innocent don't know about the anybody here is. he's convinced that he's right all the time it's a price of power but you know it's once again when you have the social and economic problem in the country you cannot blame the people who come you must blame the regime because the regime has the upper hand when you have the upper hand you you are responsible you can ask the people you know to accept you just because it could be worse if you are removed. so the advertising that led to the russian revolution in one nine hundred seventy and it started chaotically but was quickly saddled

badly organized underground revolutionary parties why didn't the arab spring uprisings have an organized political force to lead them and focus. well because you know when you live under a dictatorship to do everything you know to prevent any kind of peace for organizing you know political party or sole support to to lead the revolution of course this is what happened in the end in libya gadhafi has done everything you know to prevent any kind of organization whether it was but it all just n.g.o.s. so when will one who has our throne there was it kind of vacuum and when you have this kind of force you can you can have everything you can have this horrible violence going on just no yes no fortunately in tunisia because we have this tradition of being strong civil society for so many decades before that even before

that dependency we we were lucky because we have had this you know this. group of people leading the people who should and this is why we didn't we didn't have this civil war and so for so the arab spring protests got a lot of people really excited and the western leaders western media lock the activists all of them were like opposite os but in the wave of excitement what happens to the voices of people who didn't want to come out to the streets for instance while people in benghazi want to cassie out people in tripoli were not as excited over the idea while people in homs wanted assad out and people in aleppo where i'm very skeptical over the proposal is it inevitable ignoring this one side that isn't yelling as loud as the other. yes. you know a society. within a society you have the laws of. the society you have people who are happy

with the regime because they you know that they have everything they want from this regime so it's quite normal that that in syria or even in tunisia you know people that in some part of the population were was not very happy with their will when the fall of the ship because a dictatorship is not just one person and his family did that you know that enjoying. life and having to go out of money etc you have thousands of people you know living a very well under a dictatorship so i can imagine that in in syria in arkansas so do you see the danger of painting everyone who isn't partaking in the revolutionary fever asked the government or you say regime time i would you end up presenting them as a faceless mass of people without a voice i mean that's how civil war start there is always in a society a majority and minority and i can assure you that the big minority big minority are

where extremely unhappy with their would the outcome of the arab spring but look when you when you have a crisis in the so important political crisis like we have had before the outbreak of brutal lucian what would what is the city's solution you cannot express your your your feeding your wishes as a majority because there are no election no fair election that you have to pick this week you don't have any any other solution you cannot. there look people look there are some people who are not who don't agree with you with that because they are unhappy with that we are with the regime and you're going to look stay quiet because you could have. the situation worse than if you're ready for it because we are going to you know. crush you. we're going to kill all of you we were going to burn the country it's if you can have this to the population the population

would take to the street i would try to exploit the sense because people who are no longer can no longer accept the situation who will live and this is this is the reality you have to accept this also. thank you very much for this interview you were talking to him last seven months or to you this former president of tunisia discussing the impact of the arab spring seventy years on in tunisia and other arab cancerous that's it for this edition of so if you go i will see you next. thank you.

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